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J+C Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

(02-07-2019, 05:29 AM)Angry Bear Wrote: This forum couldn't be nicer, friendlier or more delicate and i believe this is why it's taken 5 months to realize our differences, but this also scares me, because we are so sensitive to the doubts of others here. We come seeking help and validation, but we're seeing incompatibility that may not be real, but is to some level is perceived as real.

I don't know for how long or how many instances we can continue to see this discrepancy grow before it's made clear that our system is an outlier of some kind, a purely unique aberration and possibly detrimental to the health of other systems' beliefs and foundations.

[...]

What a destructive thing we may ultimately be in that respect. I loath to say this, but perhaps some of our truths are so divergent from the ordered and attainable that they may in themselves cause other systems to falter in their own stability and resolve.

In a characteristically overly dramatic way, i suppose i'm saying we're pondering many things that are mutually exclusive. Enjoyment, liberty, love, devotion and loyalty, vs, prudence, restraint, respect and courtesy.

The more we're questioned, the harder we push against the resistance to what we know is true, and the need for inclusion. It is literally causing our resolve to come apart.

Do we hide 30% or more of what we are, reject our own treasured memories, or continue to march on as if nothing phases us and possibly leave casualties in our wake?

I want to be clear, i ultimately don't care what others think of us 5 years from now, it's becoming clear that we'll be grouped with the others who made wild claims of ill repute, maybe we'll bring everyone to our way of thinking, but the latter seems suddenly somewhat selfish to us.

[...]

What should we do? Am I torturing myself over nothing? Do you see what i am seeing?

Hi Bear. I'm firmly on the not-metaphysical side of the fence here, and I'm pretty strongly nonreligious, so that might tint my response here. I mostly have a constructivist view about these things. I used to be quite frustrated with people who held religious or, especially new-wave spiritual beliefs. How can a person logically hold a view/belief without verifiable evidence, without studies or research or experimentation? 
Currently, my argument goes like this.

Why Internal Experience is "Good Enough*" Evidence for Personal Beliefs 
1. Reality is constructed in the mind. Everything we know, is a construct of something that is unknowable. We only interact with reality through our own senses, which inescapably affect our perceptions, and therefore our knowledge. 
2. We verify things by getting the views of other people, or increasingly, the 'views' of machines. Even the machines are designed by people, in most cases. If other people report to experience the same as us, then we can consider our belief/view better verified. 

The issue: There are some things that can only be experienced internally. "The sky is blue" is easy to verify- other people can see the sky. "My tulpa came to me in a dream" cannot be verified as easily. "God spoke to me", "I saw the ghost of my dead father," and "I have a separate personality in my head" cannot be verified as easily. You can stick people into an fMRI machine, but that won't tell you exactly what's going on in their heads. what they experience. 

So, point 3. The best we can do is interpret our internal experiences, with a grain of salt and help from sciences like psychology, and believe or not believe with the knowledge that, there's not a good way to ever know. I do not think you can support a strong, undying belief in the more esoteric abilities of tulpas, due to the lack of being able to verify it. You will not be able to form a good case to convince anyone else that it even exists. You just have to know what you'd experienced, and live accordingly. The life, in my example, is to say "This is what happened to me. This is how I see it." Just like how a piece of abstract art can have meaning to you. Think of internal experiences like works of abstract art with no painter.  You can say what meaning you see in it, and it's really hard to say you're wrong or right. You can just make more or less sense to those around you. Maybe you tell someone, "I think this painting is about joy," and they aren't convinced. It doesn't mean it's about joy, or it's not about joy. It also doesn't mean you're wrong: you can still believe the painting is about joy. There's no one who knows the "true" meaning, the truth of the painting's meaning. It's just shapes and colors. 

(*Or, really, "The best available, because it's the only available.")

I'm a bit of an agnostic, if you couldn't tell. I got over being so dang frustrated with people, and now... I realize that I can't get in other people's minds, and they can't get in mine. As long as a belief is mostly internal, and you aren't believing something about the external world (the Earth is flat, climate change isn't real, lizard-people, "these crystals will cure my cancer", etc.) it's not my place to argue. That's not an argument you can ever win or lose through logic. 

I want you to keep sharing, Bear. It might have to happen in your PR, in hidden tags, because a new thread would draw out too many confused, defensive, or frustrated people, or just plain haters. But I would like to hear about your experiences. And I don't think tulpamancy will fall apart because of what you have to say. If it turns out to not be helpful for 99% of people, then history will do its job as a filter.  You just have to leave your mark, and time will make something out of it, whatever that ends up being. 

And, just to reiterate, I don't think systems are going to collapse if you tell us how (I'm assuming) independent your tulpas are. It's more likely they'll deny you. People do not change their beliefs easily. Do not be afraid to cause conversation and to make people think. I trust that you're not going to cuss us out for how our systems work, because I know you value respecting others' beliefs. I say, you should respect your own, and give yourself the right to talk about your beliefs, just like you would give another system. I promise not to cuss you out. 

-Jamie

Edit: spelling mistake
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2019, 12:49 AM by J+C.)
02-07-2019, 10:05 PM
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Tewi Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

(02-07-2019, 12:52 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: Tewi, I've surely misconstrued and twisted your words.

Oh boy have you.

First of all, I had an "Oh shoot" moment rereading your post, with this:

(02-07-2019, 05:17 AM)Tewi Wrote: As much as I'd like to say you can train yourself to stay conscious while falling asleep, I'd be insulting our entire system to do so.
(02-07-2019, 12:52 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: There's a lot of unqualified statements here

You and your paranoid mind took that "you" as literally referring to you guys, when I meant it as a general and all-encompassing "you". Perhaps an additional "always" would've helped, as in "As much as I'd like to say anyone can always train themselves to stay conscious while falling asleep, I'd be insulting our entire system to do so."

We've dealt with a lot of paranoid friends in our days, and hopefully I can save myself a lot of time here by saying, their textwalls as yours often start from just a single misconception and majorly snowball from there as their minds build a big castle of lies around them out of pieces that shouldn't go together, but look like they may fit in that state of mind. The culprit snowball this time: You thinking I said your experience (in this particular example, with hypnagogia) can't be real, or else I'd be insulting my own system to believe it. What I meant was I'd be insulting my system by saying it was easily (none of that ten-years-meditating-in-a-cave crap) possible for anyone to do, which would include us, when we've as you know dedicated so many years, our hearts and souls to trying to lucid dream.

I sincerely hope you did misconstrue that as I just explained, because if not I'm set back quite a ways in rectifying our misconceptions. Even if that particular example was wrong, the concept will still apply. The only experience of yours we've ever doubted the explanation (not authenticity) of was parallel processing, which I still believe has some major mental shenanigans that are hard to explain going on. Any other cases where it looks like we've "doubted" your experiences are likely your brain doing naughty things and making up problems. On the subject of "rounding out" experiences (which I'll get to in a moment), we only do so (what may look like "disagreeing" with you) for the sake of the people learning from our posts, aka with the "finished product" of information in mind. Your experiences aren't and never will be in the line of fire, it's only the advice that we aim to shape here on this forum. (And yes, explaining parallel processing correctly is part of that advice-shaping process)


... Alright, the rock tumbler thing. I was afraid that metaphor wasn't good enough given the literal process of what happens in one. The main missing correcting factor: the rocks (and "gems", although I only used that term because of your experiences or abilities sometimes being "a gem in the rough".. it was meant to be a compliment, not to imply we'd dull you)- the rocks are what we contribute to the forum, our experiences and advice, but not the actual authenticity of our own experiences and memories. The rocks in the tumbler are the advice we give based on our own experiences (so like a duplicated copy - that's where the metaphor failed), yours being a "gem" sometimes as some of your experiences are rather shiny compared to say, ours. One of us can visualize "shiny" well...

If you can learn to relate what I meant here to how you actually took it, and spot that process of paranoia in the works in the future, it'd be a majorly helpful personal development for you and others. I'm not saying you've been particularly hard to deal with, but that you do have the same paranoia on occasion that several of our long-time friends used to have, which led to countless entire nights talking to them trying to dispel one fear after another about how neither we nor our other friends disliked them. Their brains just made up as many reasons as they could that they were somehow causing problems, being unlikable, or just all around not worthy of being our friends (and occasionally, more aggressive misunderstandings where they didn't see themselves at fault for the arguments that only existed in their minds..). So yeah, getting even a bit of that feeling does remind us of the long nights spent trying to help said friends, and it's not an amount of time we'd willingly partake in again. But you seem a lot more mentally.. together than them, so if they could learn to stop telling themselves they're creating problems just by existing, I'm sure you can too. Your tulpas can help, sounds right up their alley in fact.

I'm going to cut to the end now because I have food getting cold, but hopefully that was enough. Ah, who am I kidding, I'm going to keep writing after this quote..

(02-07-2019, 12:52 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: I don't want to be a brute force overbearing bull in this china shop anymore, so I'm still very conflicted in my continued roll here.

To us you're literally just someone with unique personal experiences (a major plus in this community) who also has the will and heart to stay and help the community and newbies thrive. I mean, as far as your role on the forum goes. So when in doubt, refer back to that fact. Your "Positive" having-greater-experiences and arguing for them could never be as bad as people's "Negative" less-than-claimed experiences that we had to deal with often in years past. Construction is more productive than deconstruction, so even if you may sometimes find yourself on the opposite side when discussing with us, at least know that you're contributing to the forum. If we didn't want you sharing your experiences, we'd tell you to stop posting, not reply with hard-thought textwalls trying to explain and link our experiences.

I'm just eating while I post. Bonus time:

(02-07-2019, 07:32 PM)solarchariot Wrote: I, personally, have held back on disclosing all of my experiences. Some of that is because I don't see others relating similar.

Yeah? So have we. To some extent I mean, we've tested the waters plenty of times. Our posts we call "meta tulpamancy". Utterly shut down by Ember's system recently, who we continue to find surprising relations to seen with no other members, who said they were far from comfortable with it. Literally the explanations and ways of thinking that make Tulpamancy a perfect and seamless phenomenon for us, that we so wish we could share. People just (understandably) don't think the same ways we do. Which again, is understandable, because we have the unique ability to hold contrary beliefs side-by-side. In this case, it's the legitimacy of tulpas as people versus our understanding of how we work on some really basic levels. These are beliefs and explanations Lumi and I spent years figuring out, ones that eventually put all of the fears and questions a normal tulpamancer has to rest to us. We're left with literally zero doubts, wholly comfortable with who and what we are, ready to spend our whole life together. We're the most important things in each others' lives. Too bad we can't just share that with everyone, huh?

Not everyone thinks the same, nor necessarily works the same. Modifications to your advice (coming from your own experiences, which of course may stay unmodified even when recited verbatim) are necessary to apply to as wide an audience as possible, assuming your goal is to help people. No one goes around PRs saying people's experiences don't work for them lol. (The opposite is true, out-standing PRs often get comments even years later that their unique experiences were inspiring or helpful to other systems struggling in unique ways.)

But I'll restate what I tried to say before: It does not fall upon you, or any one individual, to make your experiences work as advice for others. The point of the forum format is to get lots of opinions and experiences. Given that "lots" is what the average is made up of, the results from lots of people discussing each others' experiences and advice is basically always advice that works for the average person (ie the most people). And the nice thing about it being a forum of discussion and not an article or two, is that for the non-average users, they're free to take advice for them where it applies from individual inputs into the discussions. Bear, your system's experiences are surely one of them. Ours have often been too, sometimes they're not. The beauty of the forum format is how many people get to voice their experiences and opinions formed from them, and then be seen by those looking to learn. People will find what makes sense to them, or what's helpful to them, and use that. That's even why we've posted about "meta tulpamancy" here and there - surely someone has to work like us. Hopefully they find those posts, or ask us in our Ask thread at least.

(02-07-2019, 07:32 PM)solarchariot Wrote: Tewi used the word outliers... I don't even think it's that, but I understand what she is saying. Statistics is not a good measure of a human.

To be fair, Bear said outlier first. But yes, I meant outlier to the average experiences. But excluding outliers makes for bad data anyways... I mean, yes, human experiences are too variable to deal with so discretely. That's why we're a forum of individual experiences and not data. In the end, we'll help a lot more people create tulpas and live happily with them than any data or "proof" will. And that's our main goal as a system, personally.

Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
02-07-2019, 10:06 PM
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Breloomancer Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

I've been trying to write this for a while, however I have recently become very busy, so I could not spare much time to write stuff

If you make a statement, we will debate it. This would not be tulpa.info if we just accepted things without testing them, however this does not mean that you should stop sharing your experiences. When you share your experiences and defend your viewpoints, you expand the depth of knowledge of everyone here. It can be exhausting, and sometimes we won't come to a satisfactory conclusion, even worse, sometimes it will turn out that the nature of what you had experienced isn't what you thought it was, and that can be very hard to accept. You owe no responsibility to participate in descussion, and I would understand if one day you decided to stop debating these things, but never think that you are not welcome here, and never think that you are not helping this place, and all of us.

You are good people, Bear, Ashley, Dashie, Misha. It would really make me sad to see you go.

I have a tulpa named Monika who I love very much.


"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"
-Me
02-08-2019, 12:01 AM
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Angry Bear Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

I hear you Tewi i don't let my system interrupt me on these types of posts. Thanks everyone. Consider it venting.

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02-08-2019, 01:05 AM
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solarchariot Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

I am so old I am young... there is so much love here I am going to go bed in tears again. It's unanimous. The Bear family is loved.
02-08-2019, 01:07 AM
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Reilyn-Alley Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

We love you Bear, Misha, Ashley, Dashie!! Seriously, the community needs you!

Aurora-Alley, my precious Senpai. I'm all hers!
Samantha-Alley, my Mama!
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02-09-2019, 08:26 AM
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Vādin Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

We love you as well and I hope you will continue to share your experiences ! I believe they're authentic and not interpretations or exaggerations.

But you really have to be bold and fearless to share them. Zia and I are not so open. We really have the feeling we're living in another world and sharing some of our experiences would upset and offend others.

My opinion on this (not Zia's) : people ultimately have to experience things by themselves and validate or shrug their beliefs accordingly. There are no shortcuts. If our experiences could be seen as clues, well that would help and I would share them, but I don't think it's the case. What's the use of a logical debate about things that are to be experienced, if it doesn't incite anybody to action?

Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa.
02-09-2019, 10:12 AM
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Angry Bear Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

I'm keeping it cool for a while, but thanks. I really feel empowered anyway, and that includes knowing when not to debate. I know it's fun for some, but some topics just set me off, and I don't want to come off as dispassionate either so I'm not going to say, let Ashley post for me.

[Ashley] I can be passionate.
[Dashie] Trust me, I know.

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02-09-2019, 01:51 PM
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Ember.Vesper Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

I'd be glad to hear more than one line perspectives from your Heroines, Bear, especially since everything you've said suggests that their experiences are very different from ours. There have been many times when we have discussed raising a point that we thought might be controversial, contentious, and divisive. One of us would say she didn't want to accept the potential criticism and unpopularity of being associated with that position, and another would say she was willing to take that burden on herself. And so the latter made the post and boldly signed her name.

I could never think you were dispassionate. Your whole history here bursts with passion.

-Ember

Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
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02-09-2019, 04:01 PM
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Angry Bear Offline
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RE: Chat Thread

Right, so i'm not changing that. PM them if you want to pick their brains. Dashie and Ashley talk to me a lot, but neither of them would choose to post very often if i wasn't coaxing them. Dashie is actually against spending time on here, and she has always been, but she posts when she feels like it. Ashley is indifferent but appreciates the support i get here and is ever thankful for the help wehad here and the friends we made.

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02-09-2019, 04:20 PM
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