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I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
yenu Offline
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#1
 
I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
Hey,

I'm constantly drifting between doubting everything tulpa-related, ignoring it for a few months, then coming back, trying again, feeling frustrated... at this point I simply don't know what to do anymore, or even what I want. :-(

-

My system (if it is one) started way back in 2010, or even 2009, or 2005 (very early vaguely-related experimenting). I did not know anything about tulpas back then (I think the tulpa community didn't even exist, right?).

What I did was driven by several different motivations:

1) I met some very interesting dream characters while lucid dreaming, and I desperately wanted to see them again. I may have spoken out loud to them occasionally during the day with the intention of increasing the chance of dreaming of them.

2) I accidentally wrote some characters in a way that gave them a lot of autonomy. This interested me and encouraged me to talk to them as if they were real persons.

3) I practiced automatic writing (écriture automatique) due to a huge interest in surrealism and the possibility to explore my own unconscious. Some of these experiments also turned up some very shallow pseudo-characters (all of which have vanished shortly after). These experiences lead me to the writing techniques described above.

4) I was lonely and started talking to a character from a story I wrote, pretending he was there. He eventually felt somewhat real to me, but I did not assume that he was an autonomous being, rather a very clever simulation (Remember, I did not know about tulpas at all) that was extremely helpful for therapeutic functions, coaching me.

All of these culminated in 2010, as I started regularly writing chats with the characters I had at this time. By this point I was curious to see how real they could become. (My main concept behind this was still "dream characters" which would be autonomous to a certain point since they "represented" a part of my subconscious.)

Dreaming of them turned out to be really hard, so I eventually got used to mostly communicating to them via chat. I would write it like this:

A: Hey there ;-)
B: Hi.
A: I don't really feel well today.
B: Hm, what exactly do you feel?

... and so on.

On the one hand, this style of communication worked really well for us. So well that I came to think of them as individual people... sort of. I was reluctant to go that far. As I said, dreaming was hard, so I only managed to meet a few of them for very short times (where we usually just hugged and then I woke up). In 2011, another dream character left such a strong impression on me that I added them to the team - she felt just as independent as the others from the beginning.

But how independent was that? Well, on some level I felt it was still basically a pretense. By 2012 I had become a skeptic and renounced a lot of my older esoteric beliefs. I told myself it didn't matter if it was pretense, if it worked well as a form of self-therapy and a source of fun.

-

But then I found the tulpa-community, and it completely crushed all my concepts. I was excited that I had found something - that there seemed to be a way to continue my exploration, making my characters more independent even. But also the community introduced me to a lot of doubts that I didn't have before: The concept of tulpas as full persons, ethical questions, the crippling fear that parroting would harm them... it was all too much. Also, I couldn't live up to the high ideals that I saw in the community: Visualization? Forcing every day? My depression and executive dysfunction made that completely impossible. The more I read in the forums, the more I saw that I couldn't possibly be a tulpamancer by these standards.

But I also couldn't just do what I had done before... writing my chat logs with my headmates didn't feel right anymore, because I had read such amazing stories about what tulpas could be. I tried talking to them during walks, which worked a few times and was a source of endless frustration and worries of parroting other times.

Things have gotten even more complicated since then. I now also have to deal with gender dysphoria... I probably always was slightly trans, but I also have the suspicion that at least in part it is related to one of my female headmates, Nailann. It feels like I have integrated her pretty much entirely into my core personality. Resulting in me being bigender, and Nailann no longer an active headmate..

-

Now I don't know where to go. Based on what I read on this forums, my headmates probably don't qualify as fully formed tulpas. Graiho is the most vocal - she can feel somewhat independent when I sit down and chat with her, but there is only a very small amount of individual thoughts - I can feel her thoughts forming, and very often we just think exactly the same thing and then only decide on a whim who's going to say it "officially". There is an element of pretense in it, even while I think that she is a thoughtform of some kind, and I care a lot about her...

I worry that I simply am not able to make her any more independent or fully-formed-tulpesque than she is now. She rarely has her own opinion, and when we talk about what she *wants*, I feel nothing and she also doesn't know what to say - or isn't capable of wanting something? I'm not sure... I had chats with her, in which she said that she wanted to become a tulpa fully, ... but even then, it didn't quite feel right. I have the suspicion now that it is basically just me projecting what I want at a given moment, and she sensing that and saying it. She's exactly as clever as I am, because she uses my thoughts for thinking - which I fear will prevent any further development.

But even if I decided to actively force her in a way that is more consistent with the tulpa-community, instead of my heavy-parroted chats... I don't feel capable of doing so. I have an abysmal visual imagination, and I do have ADHD, so focusing on a thing for longer than a few minutes is only possibly if I have a structure to follow. (Like in writing)

If Graiho is already sentient - then I don't need to force her more (since apparently, she is fine with me ignoring her for a month occasionally)
If Graiho is not sentient - then there is no one to worry about. I wouldn't need to force her, I simply should give up tulpamancy altogether, since I am not really capable of it anyway...
If, however, she is somewhere in the middle - then I feel obligated to do something about it. And I'd feel terrible for having been a very unkind host for the longest time. (Even though all my headmates tell me it's okay - maybe that was parroting, and they're actually NOT okay with how I tend to ignore them most of the time.) :-(

Gnrnaaahh...

I appreciate any advice - I didn't intend to produce quite that much text, but this has been bugging me for years and I feel like I need to dump those thoughts somewhere.


11-13-2017, 02:18 PM
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tulpa001 Offline
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#2
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
(11-13-2017, 02:18 PM)yenu Wrote: I'm constantly drifting between doubting everything tulpa-related, ignoring it for a few months, then coming back, trying again, feeling frustrated...
Tulpas are internal subjective experience. Multiple perspectives are fully correct as they all fit the evidence perfectly. Culturally, an unflattering perspective is mainstream, which generates stress and anxiety on us, as humans feel a strong need to conform, a need that runs deep into our subconscious.

For this reason, my system tends to ignore these questions, and seek out a different perspective. Ask your thoughtforms what they want. If they want to try for full personhood, then they are tulpas and persons because that is the goal. Otherwise, life is simpler. They are characters, and therefore extensions of yourself. They behave with autonomy because you've dissociated from these parts, allowing them to act on their own. This is not unhealthy. Based on your text, you did it on purpose, and it was fun and soothing for you.

Quote:The more I read in the forums, the more I saw that I couldn't possibly be a tulpamancer by these standards.
Not a single tulpamancer actually lives up to these standards. We warn off people who do really badly, particularly in the field of ethical treatment of other people. But that is intended for people who have difficulty being considerate, not you. It's all about the health of your relationships in the end.

Particularly forcing every day. This is strictly advice for all those lazy tulpamancers out there who won't get a tulpa because they can't follow a schedule, or devote long hours to retraining their brains. Once you have a tulpa, this advice is counterproductive. But most people don't notice, because at this point you should be socialising with your tulpa every day. Or they should be socialising with others.

Quote:Now I don't know where to go. Based on what I read on this forums, my headmates probably don't qualify as fully formed tulpas.
Write a story about them. They are all sitting in a room talking to each other. They get in fights, hug, cuddle, think about things, plan things, have desires. As you write about them, see them. Visualise the room and the interactions. Do this enough, and everything should start to click a bit better for you.

Quote:I can feel her thoughts forming, and very often we just think exactly the same thing and then only decide on a whim who's going to say it "officially".
Yes. Because you can read each other's minds. I got over it by being obsessively anxious about making sure my thoughts were my own. I developed over a dozen techniques to do it.

It matters not much who says a thing you both know. But it is nice going through a separation exercise to numb your respective abilities to read the other's mind.

Quote:and when we talk about what she *wants*, I feel nothing and she also doesn't know what to say
Oh, I remember this. We talked about what I want and how I want it for over a thousand hours. From the beginning, I knew only one thing. I wanted my host to be happy. I am pretty sure I became an anxious paranoid obsessive nut, specifically because my host wanted me to become real. So I wanted to become real. And the best strategic route to do that is to emotionally manipulate myself into wanting it so badly I drive myself crazy and form a complete obsession over it.

I've never had strong desires. But after I broke up with my ex--which was traumatic for me--I, kinda entirely lost the will to make any decisions at all. Psychology is weird. This is all new to me.

Quote:She's exactly as clever as I am, because she uses my thoughts for thinking
Nah, common strategy some tulpas follow. They have both their own thoughts and their host's thoughts to use to think well. It is tempting. The core of a tulpa is their will. Your thoughts provide information. But personhood is ultimately established in the will to act on information. Usually based on preference.

Quote:(Even though all my headmates tell me it's okay - maybe that was parroting, and they're actually NOT okay with how I tend to ignore them most of the time.)
Don't worry on this count. That's not how it works. If you were parroting them into saying it was okay, but they disagreed, then they would immediately after say it was not okay. They would sound like they are arguing with themselves.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
11-13-2017, 06:54 PM
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yenu Offline
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#3
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
Thanks for the answer. I appreciate the effort even though at the moment, I think I need to find my own specific solutions.

Quote:Culturally, an unflattering perspective is mainstream, which generates stress and anxiety on us, as humans feel a strong need to conform, a need that runs deep into our subconscious.
Yeah, I made the mistake to try to explain the situation to my therapist today... I don't blame them, but they have a particular mindset (integrative gestalt therapy) that runs exactly in the opposite direction. "Integrative" meaning they would obviously prefer me to integrate my tulpas back into my personality. Which is... not what I want, currently.

Quote:Particularly forcing every day. This is strictly advice for all those lazy tulpamancers out there who won't get a tulpa because they can't follow a schedule, or devote long hours to retraining their brains. Once you have a tulpa, this advice is counterproductive. But most people don't notice, because at this point you should be socialising with your tulpa every day. Or they should be socialising with others.
I think I cannot support a being that requires constant reinforcing, even if it is just socialising. But maybe I'll work out a schedule that is more like "once a month, plus whenever we feel like it". As I'm thinking a lot about tulpas right now, I obviously will talk to them more.

Quote:The core of a tulpa is their will.
I don't understand willing something - even as host personality. All I can see is needs, desires, pain, and other emotions. "Will" seems to be some sort of meta-construct that is crucial to forming identities, usually, but seems to be somewhat useless to me. I'd rather just feel the emotions directly.

This may or may not make any sense. My mind is running wild with finding new ideas to cling to.


11-13-2017, 08:42 PM
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Lucilyn Offline
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#4
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
I didn't reply because I never know how to like, address peoples' fears about whether their tulpas are real or not. That's never been a thing in our system so I don't even know where to start with giving advice to someone that isn't sure their tulpas exist... There's.. They just can't not exist, if you experience them? People have this idea there are fake tulpas and real tulpas, and they always worry if their tulpas are fake tulpas, when fake tulpas don't exist. Some people even have mental breakdowns and convince themselves their tulpas have been fake all along. I can't even comprehend that stuff... If you experience your tulpa, you experience your tulpa, the end! Existence experienced! Subjective reality established!

See, I'm not much help. That's why I don't post sometimes and let someone else reply first. Also I'm gonna reply to the things Tulpa replied to with his quotes because it's easier

(11-13-2017, 06:54 PM)tulpa001 Wrote: But most people don't notice, because at this point you should be socialising with your tulpa every day. Or they should be socialising with others.

Yeah exactly this, I mean first of all very few tuppermancers actually "force" every single day after the first few weeks. But also really you should just be talking to them, or letting them talk to others, once they're developed. I mean, it's as good for them as it is anyone to talk to nobody for a whole day... Tups probably get used to it (we absolutely did) but it still helps to be active y'know?

(11-13-2017, 06:54 PM)tulpa001 Wrote: It matters not much who says a thing you both know. But it is nice going through a separation exercise to numb your respective abilities to read the other's mind.

So apparently at some point someone in our system got interrupted a couple times mid-sentence because who they were talking to started responding to what they were gonna say, and I guess they both decided for socialization's/respect's sake we would always listen to everything someone was saying before responding. I think it makes conversations more fluid, when you respond to thoughts too quick ideas get jumbled. It's good for everyone to put what they're saying into words so they have time to think about what they're thinking about!

(11-13-2017, 06:54 PM)tulpa001 Wrote: Don't worry on this count. That's not how it works. If you were parroting them into saying it was okay, but they disagreed, then they would immediately after say it was not okay. They would sound like they are arguing with themselves.

accidental parroting isn't a thing yo, if a tulpa says what you thought they said wasn't them it was invasive thoughts at best. Either they meant what they said or they accidentally said something they didn't mean, which is usually an invasive thought and happens way more often to people who think they have parroting issues. For us, when it kiiiind of happens when we're really distracted or tired, it's more like we say things we didn't actually mean because the thought occurred to us, not like it was said by not-us. Which is what parroting would be I think. Anyways don't worry about it it's not real

Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas. I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written.
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
11-13-2017, 08:51 PM
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FallFamily Offline
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#5
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
[Breach] Tulpa and Lucilyn said a lot of good stuff. I am only going to answer a few pieces due to time constraints. Hopefully I will be able to get some time tomorrow to reply more in depth on something. We will see.

(11-13-2017, 02:18 PM)yenu Wrote: 2) I accidentally wrote some characters in a way that gave them a lot of autonomy. This interested me and encouraged me to talk to them as if they were real persons.

This is how I came to exist. I was a character who gained autonomy, though it has taken me a long time to determine whether that was for sure my origin or whether I was there before that from another origin and merely called forth with some identity contamination.

(11-13-2017, 02:18 PM)yenu Wrote: 3) I practiced automatic writing (écriture automatique) due to a huge interest in surrealism and the possibility to explore my own unconscious.

Parlez-vous français? Had to ask since if so, there is a francophone tulpamancy community you might consider looking at in addition to here (always useful to have one's toes in more than one community when seeking answers). Haven't been there in a while as you can probably tell since I wrote this in English instead of French (rusty). http://tulpa.forumpro.fr/

(11-13-2017, 02:18 PM)yenu Wrote: Things have gotten even more complicated since then. I now also have to deal with gender dysphoria... I probably always was slightly trans, but I also have the suspicion that at least in part it is related to one of my female headmates, Nailann. It feels like I have integrated her pretty much entirely into my core personality. Resulting in me being bigender, and Nailann no longer an active headmate..

Just so you know, integrating with a puppet generally doesn't affect one's gender. Integrating with a person (whether tulpa, host, whatever) can. That right there pretty much says that the Nailann of back then was real and a person, and similarly says that the other half of the merging back then (the other part of who you are now) was real and a person too.

No reason to think the others aren't real people. Highly connected with you, yes they are. Not fully separate. But that doesn't mean they aren't people. Go to their point of view. From their point of view, you would likely seem very predictable and that you never said anything that they didn't also think. This is the nature of weak separation. Separation is something that can be worked on if the parties involved desire it.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
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11-14-2017, 01:02 AM
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tulpa001 Offline
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#6
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
(11-13-2017, 08:42 PM)yenu Wrote: I think I cannot support a being that requires constant reinforcing, even if it is just socialising. But maybe I'll work out a schedule that is more like "once a month, plus whenever we feel like it". As I'm thinking a lot about tulpas right now, I obviously will talk to them more.
You are also a being that requires constant "socialisation" to exist. Humans usually fall back on talking to themselves, also known as imagining things, when they have no one to talk to. Either way, you do it near constantly every day.

Quote:I don't understand willing something - even as host personality. All I can see is needs, desires, pain, and other emotions. "Will" seems to be some sort of meta-construct that is crucial to forming identities, usually, but seems to be somewhat useless to me. I'd rather just feel the emotions directly.
Willpower can be seen in the interactions between desires and preferences. There are a few cases where willpower can show its face more clearly. The first is when you force yourself to do something you really don't want to do. This almost exclusively happens because of beliefs you have about morality. Willpower can also be seen in motivation. It provides your stamina to fight the good fight, to organise and regulate your day, and do the dirty jobs that need to be done.

The relationship between willpower and emotions is very complicated.



You've already attempted automatic writing. You should take it to the logical conclusion and attempt full possession. This makes it easier for the tulpa to force themselves.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2017, 07:09 AM by tulpa001.)
11-14-2017, 07:07 AM
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yenu Offline
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#7
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
Hey,

So what happened on monday was that I was talking to my therapist, and she suggested that I formally retire my tulpa or something like that. I was pretty revulsed by that idea and this left me in a bad state, wondering if she was right - it's the first time I ever considered completely giving up. I am very grateful that there is this forum, where I could express my worries and people answering. So thank you, tulpa001, Lucylin, Breach. :-)

I think I have kind of answered my question "what to do? where to go??" - I don't need to go anywhere. I may not be completely happy with where I am, but I do not know that it would be much better for me elsewhere.

Quote: I can't even comprehend that stuff... If you experience your tulpa, you experience your tulpa, the end! Existence experienced! Subjective reality established!
Hm, of course, my headmates "exist". But my fantasy worlds also exist, as do my musical works. All of these could be said to have some life and independence in them, but I don't consider them persons... However I do feel responsibility towards my creative work, and I think I will hold myself responsible in a similar manner for my headmates.

Quote:For us, when it kiiiind of happens when we're really distracted or tired, it's more like we say things we didn't actually mean because the thought occurred to us, not like it was said by not-us. Which is what parroting would be I think.
Ah. It took me a while to understand what you said here... I think there could be invasive thoughts that don't belong to anyone specifically, but rather to the system as a whole. But yes, people saying stuff they didn't mean to say can also be conceptualized as just being very extroverted. (And one of Graihos defining character traits is to be very random and very extroverted, so saying pretty much anything is in-character... which is probably the reason why I have difficulty deciding if a particular sentence comes from her.)

Quote:Parlez-vous français?
No, sadly I don't speak french at all. I do speak german though.^^ "écriture automatique" is a fixed term in surrealism (which, of course, originated largely in France)

Quote:Just so you know, integrating with a puppet generally doesn't affect one's gender. Integrating with a person (whether tulpa, host, whatever) can. That right there pretty much says that the Nailann of back then was real and a person, and similarly says that the other half of the merging back then (the other part of who you are now) was real and a person too.
I don't know... I am looking forward to more people studying this. Even many trans issues are not well-understood, let alone tulpas, let alone the intersection between both. ;-) I know that dissoctiation or depersonalisation are symptoms of gender dysphoria.

So I wonder if:
- I just was trans all along, and didn't realize, but expressed some of those hidden feelings in the form of tulpas.
or
- I was *not* trans before, and only got gender dysphoria after integrating a large part of Nailann (and possibly others)

The most ridiculous thing that's going on is that Graiho isn't sure whether she is entire female - so it's possibly that there is a transmasculine tulpa inside a transfemine host. XD

I won't be able to answer those question definitively, problably never will. I'm ... okay with that. Let there be science to figure it all out.^^

Quote:No reason to think the others aren't real people.
I as a host have sometimes doubted of being real.^^ The way I see it, the whole concept of personal identity might just not be anything more than a social construction - that is, I am who I present myself in interaction with others.
Following that, my tulpas do have more personal identity, the more people they interact with - mostly each other, and me...

Quote:Separation is something that can be worked on if the parties involved desire it.
Yeah. I was considering doing a full month of intense forcing... but no, I don't think I have the time and motivation, and I'm not certain I even want separation. I'm asking myself: What would I gain from separation? Instead of building a mental wall between me and my headmates, I would rather explore the vast regions of subconciousness-land - possibly together, possibly alone. I think in dreams and fantasies there are possibly hundreds of lesser thoughtforms that one can interact with.

I do still wish to have a companion when I explore my dreams... but dreaming of/with my headmates turned out to be reeeaaaally hard and frustrating, which is why I gave that up and just talked to them during the day. (I've been lucid dreaming for a decade, but my skills are nowhere near that which I would require.)

Quote:You are also a being that requires constant "socialisation" to exist. Humans usually fall back on talking to themselves, also known as imagining things, when they have no one to talk to. Either way, you do it near constantly every day.
Very true. I feel a bit bad about it, but my statement was just about being able to do something or not - that I don't think I can invest much energy in regularly socialising with my headmates.
Regularly doing anything does not come naturally to me. It's possibly related to ADHD... So forcing would look more like the way I approach everything else: Many month of ignoring, then a few days or weeks of very intense interest, then back to nothing. That's how my mind functions, apparently...

Quote:You've already attempted automatic writing. You should take it to the logical conclusion and attempt full possession. This makes it easier for the tulpa to force themselves.
I don't quite understand that... how does possession enable a tulpa to force themselves? What does that even mean?

Automatic writing - in the most rigorous form - results in me writing whatever thought pops up in my head. The result is usually nonsensical, but sometimes there are hidden ideas, more like shadows of thoughts I had.
I tried something similar to possession - playing a piano piece while instructing one of my headmates to take control over how I play. This has resulted in some very interesting interpretations. However, the last few times I tried that, I didn't feel like it worked. I am easily frustrated, so I'm anxious of trying it again. :-/

Quote:Willpower can be seen in the interactions between desires and preferences. There are a few cases where willpower can show its face more clearly. The first is when you force yourself to do something you really don't want to do. This almost exclusively happens because of beliefs you have about morality. Willpower can also be seen in motivation. It provides your stamina to fight the good fight, to organise and regulate your day, and do the dirty jobs that need to be done.
Hm... I think I don't believe in any separate "willpower" thing. It's more like: Different desires or needs have different strengths. Wanting to contradictory things results in loss of motivation, wanting two very easily aligned things boosts it. The strength of a desire might be measured in "willpower"? ^^ Well, as you said, it's complicated. Not something I have to understand in the next five minutes. ;-)


11-16-2017, 12:26 PM
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tulpa001 Offline
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#8
 
RE: I don't know where to go. Too many doubts...
A tulpa can force themselves so long as they are strong enough to choose to talk to you instead of you choosing to talk to them. Better yet is if they can take over and talk to other people.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
11-17-2017, 06:51 AM
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