Stanford Tulpa Study looking for more participants
(if you're chosen they'll pay for travel and lodging!)

Poll: Are we over the line?
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It's too much, yeah, grow up a bit.
21.05%
4 21.05%
Meh
15.79%
3 15.79%
No
63.16%
12 63.16%
Total 19 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

In-System Conversations vs Tag-Team - Posting a plea to Tulpa.info
#31
(11-13-2019, 12:45 AM)Vos Wrote: This board might seem more "human" to you but this doesn't make the threads in it immune to the rules and I don't think that this should ever be the case.

yeh you guys keep saying "the rules, the rules" but I'm asking you to reconsider the rules themselves, this is something we used to do back in the day..

(11-13-2019, 12:45 AM)Vos Wrote: but I still don't think that the forums should be a platform for people to communicate with their tulpas, even in personal threads.

Okay, I guess I'll say what was at the heart of my original argument here: to us it's always been really obvious bear's system is neither having their internal discussions out loud, nor roleplaying (as the rule was mostly made to stop), but using the format of talking with each other for the explicit purpose of having it be read in such a way by the reader - that a lot of what is considered "in-system conversations" from them probably wouldn't really happen in the first place if they weren't specifically writing it for the forum, I guess

though the most recent example I posted is more directly breaking the rule, which is why I said the rule(s) should be relaxed in PRs where I don't think it's doing real harm

but, I guess I don't have much more argument that's likely to change your mind on the matter, so I'll just leave it at the reminder that strictly enforcing rules meant for general discourse/debate/discussion on the forum in people's own Progress Reports is what brought the forum's activity down to a fraction of what it once was in the past (and I don't count all the forum games and lounge-posting as real "activity", I'm referring to the old philosophical/in-depth discussions that used to be bumped every single day pre-2015)
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#32
Lucilyn,

No offense to KM&RD but if their PR is indicative of how it should be, my system isn't really interested in doing that. They finally understand that their method of documenting progress conflicts with the currently interpreted rules.

I think there's a fallacy in your statement:

Lucilyn Wrote:...you're trying to create a more ideal forum for an ever-decreasing number of people when we need to be valuing expanding the community and making it a place people actually want to be...

My system has been here long enough to see that this is not true as stated, not with the context you're projecting at the very least. This isn't a histrionic statement, it's an observation.

I don't know Pleeb's full feeling on what his vision of this site should be, but from what was said on Discord between him and other Mods, the the sort of 'warmth, heart, fun' that my system brought isn't the type of thing they want.

I believe they're looking for a bridge between science and tulpamancy. Rightfully or not, I'm projecting they feel that the way to do this is to button up and act professionally everywhere on tulpa.info. How many times does Vos or other staff members have to reiterate this for us to understand? We understand now I think, do you?

Lucilyn Wrote:...offer to move Bear's PR to Lounge?

Now I see where the Bear system isn't the only confused system, this wouldn't be allowed in Lounge either, and they have been warned for in-system conversation in the lounge by Vos in the past.

As you and I discussed last night, even "transcripts", we theorized, would not include conversation or dialog. Even if it did, the caveat "allowed if it applies to progress" is too vague to have any tenable filter, especially with the number of times my system broke the rules in question, it's not something they'd even be comfortable doing at this point. Certainly they wouldn't agree to the indignity of pre-submitting their entries for Mod scrutiny and approval. Especially not after we see how they butcher submissions in the GAT, scrubbing any useful examples in favor of textbook logic. This is our observation.

So In my system's PR, we have things like:
  • Trials
  • Love Letters
  • Deep conversations
  • Discussions
  • Wonderland Adventures
  • Comic strip-like skits
  • Deep interactive thoughts regarding tulpamancy
  • General round table talks on topic.
  • Angsty histrionic venting
  • Mental health documentation and other off-topic matters and philosophy
  • Examples of how one system-mate and another system-mate's relationship grows over time.
  • Slice of life

None of these would be allowed under the presumed interpretation Vos and other staff members have consistently presented, to our understanding.

So projecting to today, my system was involved in:
  • "Three Sister's Play" is meant to show how three tulpas could cooperatively play a game and it was a great success as far as they were concerned. However, in-system conversation is a given in that scenario, so it wouldn't be appropriate.
  • Bear and the gang were looking forward to posting chapters of their tulpamancy related book, this would strictly not be allowed in this current rule-set. It's fiction, it's role-play, it's dialog containing in-system conversations. So that's strictly not going to happen given how many rules it breaks, given the heartache they've had recently, and the obvious probation-like scrutiny they have, they wouldn't even want present it, or anything else, as a link. Who knows what oppressive precedent of rule-set interpretation they'd invoke from the staff.
  • Bear and Misha were training their art skills in fast anime style to get to the point that they could release interactive comic strips, including members of this forum, depicting the fun and adventures you have all shared along the way. Under the currently interpreted rule-set, that content is not allowed, unless I'm mistaken, but it's pretty clear.

Any Artwork depicting in-system conversation, like "The Blobbies" on Reddit wouldn't be allowed, is my interpretation.

Given the deeply rooted habits they developed, and consistent misunderstandings, innocent or not, there is a pretty serious mismatch between how the Bear system wants to act, basically using tulpa.info as their personal angsty-teen blog playground, isn't appropriate to Pleeb's presumed values or vision and the current interpretation of the rules. This is my presumption.

As you've alluded in the past, the Bear system is a throwback to simpler times, warmer times, less science-y times. From what I've seen, as an 'outside observer', the Bear system acts directly counter to the currently understood vision for tulpa.info, and they obviously can't help it--Tulpa.info shouldn't bend the rules for just them either.

What is the Bear systems role here then, what would the Bear system want to do under this rule-set now that they finally understand it? About 10% of what they've always done.
  • Welcome new members - others are doing that too
  • Share Art - as long as it follows the rules, no slice of life comics, sorry
  • Defend others - Eh, after the Breloomancer fiasco, probably not to the same level
  • Support others - as long as there isn't some rule about supporting a system in their PR, frankly I don't trust my system mates to read or understand the rules properly at this point.
  • Share experiences? Well, I'm not sure they know how to do that without skirting rules even if they fully understood them. I presume you couldn't say things like "she said, and then she said and then she said..." either. Well, we are a system with seven currently active members and all our experiences are parallel between a handful of system-mates. So explaining it like a dry news story will professionalize the memory of the event to such an extent that I'm not going to allow it. We're nothing if not an all inclusive love fest of an armature writer and his lovely head-mates, and I would have to admit that you can't document that without dialog.

From the poll above, for whatever reason, there is a clear message that Bear system antics don't align with over a third of the active and visiting forum members either, regardless of rules. Tulpa.info has changed since 2015, some say for the better. Some really want a scientific tie, that scientific grounding is possibly required to keep their system solvent. We don't want to disturb that.

In conclusion:
The Bear system is special in today's tulpamancy, they're perhaps the last remnants of the old ways you're so fond of--there aren't many like us anymore. What the Bear system brings to the forum, the warmth and support, the fun and play, the drama and histrionic behavior, soap-serial style drama, personal opinions, and the love, are not all strictly prohibited, but following the rule-set that we understand today, probably 90% of what they have done was skirting if not violating the rules over the past 13 months.

We've fostered notions like multiple co-fronting, never-dormant, empty front, switching variations (including switch into wonderland), and self-help through tulpamancy; many of these notions were denied and even discredited, but we dutifully pushed them and they have been proven, at least in our understanding, to be translatable and trainable.

For the Bear system to change would be taking the color and warmth out of the Bear system, I don't see any way around it. Let's remember them for who they were, love them or hate them, the lovable opinionated hurtful jerks, not what they're forced to be, with the understanding that joy is a part of tulpamancy, just not tulpa.info's tulpamancy.

Thank you
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#33
(11-13-2019, 12:15 PM)Joy Wrote: No offense to KM&RD but if their PR is indicative of how it should be, my system isn't really interested in doing that.

no, honestly their PR is more like what a "real" PR was supposed to be, but because they often talked about daily activities (blog-like) that didn't necessarily relate to progress, during the change they just accepted being moved to Lounge so they'd never have to worry, but really that whole change was a huge mess and just hurt the forum without helping at all

your guys' PR is still perfectly fine as far as PR content goes, while "Ashley's Lounge" and perhaps whatever Melian's thread(s) were were examples of Lounge "PR"s, where you might talk about yourselves but it's not stuff that would necessarily have value for someone just learning about tulpa development

anyways, that whole concept is dated as heck and PRs actually reverted to what they were before the change within a year, albeit with a fraction of the activity they once had

(11-13-2019, 12:15 PM)Joy Wrote: The Bear system is special in today's tulpamancy, they're perhaps the last remnants of the old ways you're so fond of--there aren't many like us anymore.

"the old ways" were both better and worse than they are now, there were people with super strict PRs and people who supposedly (I never saw it..) were more blog-y, super science-y types and people who were even more for-fun than your guys' system if only barely, so it's more accurate to say the forum was just bigger and had more types of people and discussions going on I guess, I certainly don't want the 4chan mentality back so I don't like calling it "the old ways", but I'd love to have a community super excited to talk about stuff in PRs again I guess?


aaanyways, my bringing that up wasn't directly related to your guys' PR at all and you should be disregarding everything I'm talking about - the only problem with your guys' PR is your habit of in-system conversing, aka writing anything that is directed at each other rather than the reader (even if it's obviously intended just to be read by the reader, it has to be directed at them too)

I just brought it up because I got the same vibes with them giving you a warning for your completely harmless PR posts as I did with them taking issue with PRs being too "off-topic"


note that, while that sounds all fine and good, PRs being "too off-topic", the Staff had no idea what they were actually trying to enforce back then and so PRs were allowed to continue having plenty of just life stuff because after the entire forum's reaction they realized enforcing what they had in mind would just kill all activity, though people kinda collectively overreacted (especially Cinemaphobe) and just flat out left anyway, but yeah what they took issue with at the time is exactly what goes on in like 33% of progress reports these days
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#34
It's not like the off-topic PR rule hasn't been enforced since it was instated; even if some threads were missed, and I'm sure that plenty were, we've still moved a good amount of threads from Progress Reports to Lounge over the past few years. Every now and then we've had some talks about what should be allowed there and we've been pretty lenient what's posted so long as it's tulpa-related, but our leniency only goes so far. I think that you're being an alarmist with the whole "forum is dying" talk, and that it's just a gradual shift as chat clients are becoming more convenient and forums are being pushed to the wayside.
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#35
if I said the forum was dying I didn't mean to - it kinda already "died" in 2015 relatively speaking, all I was saying is that giving someone a warning for harmless, productive PR posts gives me the same vibes as the last event that made so many people leave

forum's living, maybe not growing, but losing Bear's system will be a hit to our existing community like losing Cinemaphobe was I think (not that I think enforcing this rule warrants them leaving, just stating the parallel feeling - that and wanting to account for another "a little unfair rule and an overreaction to it" scenario)
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
Reply
#36
(11-14-2019, 04:19 AM)Lucilyn Wrote: if I said the forum was dying I didn't mean to - it kinda already "died" in 2015 relatively speaking, all I was saying is that giving someone a warning for harmless, productive PR posts gives me the same vibes as the last event that made so many people leave

forum's living, maybe not growing, but losing Bear's system will be a hit to our existing community like losing Cinemaphobe was I think (not that I think enforcing this rule warrants them leaving, just stating the parallel feeling - that and wanting to account for another "a little unfair rule and an overreaction to it" scenario)

I think that most of Bear's progress reports are fine from the few I've actually read. Wonderland adventures, form changes, updates on daily life with your tulpa — this kind of thing is alright as long as it doesn't turn into an off-topic blog, in which case it's either shoved into Lounge or we encourage people to make a separate thread/blog. Bear was only warned for the in-system conversations, and my reasoning behind not wanting to change this rule is that I think that this, like roleplaying, has the potential to give newcomers a bad impression and turn them away from the concept. There are already plenty of people who don't like it in general, anyway.
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#37
The vague subjectivity of what's allowed is a huge barrier to putting anything more in our PR or content in general. What we need is an allowance and amendment to the rules, preferably, to foster Pleeb's presumed vision for the site.

New evidence has come to light regarding this, and pardon the percieved verbosity of this post, but it's entirely necessary. This is a negotiaiton not for Bear system shenannigans, but for the continued comminty of Tulpa.info, and more importantly, some might argue, the complete documentation of the science we're trying to create.

For Bear system specifically:

The list of items I address below are 90% of what's in our PR/lounge/threads, 10% would be strictly tulpa-related 'progress' if I'm being generous.

In terms of us leaving, it's a real possibility, or at least to the point of not even posting every day or every week, it's not an overstatement. For whatever reason, my host is extra sensitive to warnings and it has threatened permanent damage to his feelings about tulpa.info in general. Animosity for perceived oppression of free speech and future unreasonable negotiations on tulpa.info would turn what used to be a fervor for advertising and donating to the site and contributing to the community, to a general neutrality. Further action would probably push that further to the right and the mental state of my host with it.

We absolutely don't mind if our thread is moved to lounge or even metapysical boards to achieve our specific goals. However, if that is the case, then we would request that that be added as an amendment to the rules or at least to the sticky, if that sticky supersedes the rule.

Tulpa.info in general from here on out:

Let me just start be stating that sharing experiences and building the science we are trying to foster here, without dialog, is overly restrictive and contrived. We need the rules to be relaxed slightly in order to share and document things about the nature tulpamancy that naturally contain dialog, or to make the point clear, and without the fear of 3-month small percentage bans or worse for subjective interpretation of what's written by the OP or the rules. Let me just note that three months exceed the lifespan of a typical new tulpamancer, most quit long before that.

We want a rule amendment to allow anything tulpa related or otherwise in PRs/Lounge as long as they're warned or denoted at some point and placed in hidden, similar to how NSFW is handled, and officially allow dialog in creative tulpa-related items such artwork like comic strips and the like without restriction. 'Anything' is a rather broad category, but in order to take out the possibility of oppressive interpretation of the rules in the future, it may be necessary or at least expanded from specifically, relaxing the in-system conversation in these hidden and denoted zones of safety.  I want to clarify that other rules still need to apply, and that is very fair, and I think adding this simple allowance will eliminate 99% of the current contention, and avoid escallating tensions and fear throughout the site.

What we have here isn't a negotiation for the Bear system it has broadened to a negotiation for community and science itself on this site.

I have to very carefully put this in perspective, the following list contains good and bad things, but one without the other is segregating a rainbow of experience that in whole brings color to what would otherwise be drab or uninteresting in general, so much so, as Lucilyn warns, could lead to further exodus of the forum participants, not just Bear system sympathizers.

This will free up our ability to post things like:
  • Trials
  • Love Letters
  • Deep conversations
  • Discussions
  • Wonderland Adventures
  • Comic strip-like skits
  • Deep interactive thoughts regarding tulpamancy
  • General round table talks on topic.
  • Angsty histrionic venting
  • Mental health documentation and other off-topic matters and philosophy
  • Examples of how one system-mate and another system-mate's relationship grows over time.
  • Slice of life
  • Three sisters play
  • Visualization practice thread
  • Personal development
  • Meta
  • Tulpa-related memes
  • Tulpa-related creative writing.
  • Poems
  • Fluff
  • Bloggy nonsense
  • Other Tulpa-related content.
  • 'Seemingly' unrelated science
As appropriate, deemed by the OP, as long as (within reason) it's in hidden and warned ahead of time as to the gray nature of the content, similar to NSFW, "Warning ISC or Dialog", and placed in appropriate areas such as Lounge or PR. To allow profanity but not dialog is untenable. Furthermore, creative art, obvious fiction, and other creative works that are by their very nature just for fun should be exempt from warnings in appropriate areas such as art threads, and for example, comic strips containing dialog.

This is a step more restrictive than what we have freely, and without strict enforcement, been doing for the last 15 months, but it's fair.

As Asmask pointed out to me yesterday, Tulpamancy is arguably a humanities branch of science. You can't have humanities without the humanity.

Take note that this is our objective currently, and the decision on this shouldn't be taken lightly. This will spell the beginning of a new order and symbiosis of the science of tulpamancy and community without arbitrary restriction by admin preferences or interpretations. We're not trying to suppress the minority of science-y users on Tulpa.info, we're trying to play nice and give the discipline as a whole the freedom to grow and be understood naturally as the natural science it is.

Wiki:
"The natural sciences seek to derive general laws through reproducible and verifiable experiments. The humanities generally study local traditions, through their history, literature, music, and arts, with an emphasis on understanding particular individuals, events, or eras."

I don't see how this is truly possible without the inclusion of dialog in appropriate areas.

Any of the above bullets can be argued as part of the 'tulpamancy experience'. You can't make everyone happy, but we're going to try anyway. Therefore, line-item veto may be allowed in this case within reason. The majority of the currently active forum, those who would love us or hate us aside, would benefit from the continuation of at least most of these items I've listed, whether that's a tulpa.info objective or not, for the sake of not stifling the very community and science we hold dear.

Along those lines we see a conflict between the implementation of Pleeb's vision of PRs, tulpa.info 'for science' and this rule-set.

[Quote: Pleeb]What you put in it [your PR] is generally up to you.[/quote]

[Quote: Pleeb]Post adventures that you have with your tulpa in a wonderland[/quote]

We'd love to Pleeb, thank you, and we did, oh boy did we, but given recent enforcement of percieved restrictions, we have no idea how to do that anymore. With the recently enforced anti-dialog edicts we're left bewildered and now we're negotiating here, at the very least, to put exactly what you asked for in our PR without fear of overly oppressive enforcement of this rule:

Vos Wrote:Please keep internal conversations between you and your tulpa out of the chat and forums.

Additionally:

Pleeb Wrote:It's your own blog, but it's a Tulpa.info blog. Everyone's blogs are in the same place, in the same format and on the same subject - tulpa creation.

Understood, I think but:

Vos Wrote:You can do this in PMs, you can do this in chat DMs, blogs and forums outside of Tulpa.info, etc. but as-is the in-head talk doesn't belong on here.

As a side note:

Pleeb Wrote:For those of you wondering why we don't just start blogs on official blog sites and link back here - everyone knows the format and layout for Tulpa.info, and this way everyone can comment and try it out without having to set up an account on another site.

Seems clear that blogging/diary type stuff isn't disallowed and furthermore is specifically authorized, but that's besides the point entirely. Again, personal preferences of staff shouldn't overwrite Pleebs vision for this site, nor what's reasonably necessary for community to thrive or science to grow.

To reiterate, if dialog was deemed necessary (by the poster, not the preference or specific approval of an admin) to fully explain the tulpamantic concepts, or to follow any of Pleeb's wishes for a community of like-minded individuals in an effort to support this science, or for the sake of community and understanding of how tulpamancy effects the lives of tulpamancers in general, then what harm could there possibly be to allow dialog in a personal PR, inside hidden, with warning. Or if that's not enough, the PR moved to lounge, or if that's not enough, the whole thread moved to metaphysical boards that aren't even searchable from google. The latter two would, in my understanding, be a loss to Pleeb's original vision, but we should respect others who have their own viewpoints on what's acceptable, as long as it's fair. If we're taking a step forward in enforcement, then let's give a little respect and leeway also to those who are trying to foster the science and community of this site through their great personal efforts in community, science, support, advertisement and donations to keep this site running.

To not allow that, because it might turn some away, is just as alarmist as others in this thread have been accused of. Honestly, if someone will come to this site and be turned away by some dialog inside a PR, inside hidden? I assert, that person has bigger problems and probably isn't right for this forum anyway. Especially since NSFW is allowed, and religious/meta discussion is allowed, which very well could turn away far more potential tulpa-scientists.

Regarding what is right for this forum: I respectfully state that this recent ramp up of enforcement is causing damage and harming individuals that are already compromised. Akin to bullying. The fear that Bear system overreacts to often has spread, and I fear Lucilyn's predictions about the future of the forum have merit if this is handled unreasonably from here on out. Exactly what kind of site do we want tulpa.info to be? Are we really trying to foster this science or bow down to personal preferences of a minority. Even if so, can't we find middle ground somewhere?

A response is requested from staff on this matter. I repeat, please do not take this lightly, it warrants further open discussion and rule clarification.
  • Given the argument above, should dialog be allowed if marked and in hidden in Progress Reports, Lounge, or other appropriate threads, if it is deemed by the OP to be relevant to their tulpamantic experience, or otherwise, in order to fully express the nature of the subject matter. Along with other dialog containing appropriate content as was described above.
  • We request clarification in the forum rules or Progress Reports sticky or both to avoid having this discussion again in the future.

Thank you.
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#38
Just throwing my two cents in as a non-staff member.

As long as in-system chat is kept in Progress Reports or the Lounge, then I don't see a problem with it.  I'd even argue that requiring it to be in hidden / spoiler tags is unnecessary for PRs.  There's already forums for more serious stuff that can be used for more serious tulpamancy topics.  Also, a PR is by its nature a personal record of the inner workings of a system.  If a particular system best expresses itself through in-system banter, and as long as they don't make like a half dozen posts per day of primarily banter, then it seems harmless to me.

There is an argument to be made about constraining in-system banter in Lounge threads.  But even there, I don't think it should be illegal.  Just kept to a minimum and behind hidden tags.  If someone wants to make a thread about their system playing a game or something, they could add maybe a [In System Banter] to their thread title.  While I appreciate that said banter is annoying for some people, it's pretty interesting to others, myself included.
Currently share myself with four other entities.
Noriko was created on December 15, 2014.  Sabari was created by Noriko on January 22, 2015.
Anzu was reborn on May 23, 2016.  Xiri returned on June 16, 2018.  Both had been inactive since 2012.

Progress Report | Ask a Question Thread
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#39
I can't imagine a newcomer being put off by in-system conversation. Looking at everything here, I wouldn't put that in the top ten list of alienating and off-putting things, not when myriad posts from several prominent banned members are still sprawled through the forum archives. (We read hundreds of such posts in the three weeks between finding the forum and making an account, starting the first day, so it's not like they're too buried for newcomers.) For someone with an interest in or curiousity about becoming plural, in-system conversation should actually be one of the most attractive and appealing things. In-system conversation shows that tulpamancy works and that the companionship it offers is deep, vivid, and desirable. It's the best valuable pre-selling proposition the forum could have.

It's actually a subset of your active and experienced members who would seem to me to be the most likely to be put off by in-system conversation. If you're looking for specific useful information and conducting serious discussion, you want them in the most succinct form you can get them so that you can finish and move on with your life. But if in-system conversation interferes with that, it would violate rules against disruptive posts and posts inappropriate to their location. So the specific rule, as I stated previously, is superfluous.

Meanwhile, other active and experienced members, including us, chafe at the restrictions. This accelerates the already harmfully high attrition of the members most likely to be able to aid newcomers and mentor in rare and advanced techniques.

I would love to see all the potential in-system content that the Bear system could generate. But ultimately it's the admins' house and the rest of us are just guests in it. Even with a couple of bad and harmful rules, .info is still by far the best resource and best community for non-traumagenic plurality we've found, which is why we're still around without tulpas.

-Ember
Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]
Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017
Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Unseelie Court, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#40
I can get why PRs would be subject to such rules, because I read them for what I presume the admins intended - learning about tulpas. If I want to know how your day is going, I'll hit you up in lounge or LOTPW. If I want to know how you learned imposition, I'll read your PR.

But, forum games should have relaxed rules. Like there's already a rule saying you can't post reaction pictures anywhere but forum games, why can't we do the same with in-system conversations?
Hello! I am Tanaka Kanade's tulpa. I share her head with my sister Cornelia
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