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Lance's Head, the Thread
#51
We never talk with the vocal cords so we learned to use tulpish before mindvoice probably because of that. I think it might be harder to use tulpish when you're so used to hear the mindvoice because it's like "downgrading" from something you already are good at. Though we still use tulpish almost more than mindvoice because we're having a hard time focusing on mindvoice. 
Hello! I am the other side of me and Xar's system. 
Me and Xar's Journey 
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#52
Sometimes it's tulpish, sometimes it inner voice, sometimes it's a mix. Whatever we feel like at the time. Though tulpish can be used to communicate advanced concepts quickly, so i wouldn't call it a downgrade.

Though the golden ring is pure imposed vocality, i still wouldn't want it 100% of the time.
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#53
(11-20-2018, 03:18 PM)Reilyn Wrote: I vented a bit to a friend and realized while typing everything out that, well, holy crap Lance has pretty much sacrificed all his free time to me since I showed up. There was stuff we did together, like meditation, Japanese drills and Eyebo, eating, etc, but everything else was all me me me. I told him to go play his assassins creed or something and he said "Eh, not interested any more. Why don't you draw or chat online?" apparently as long as I'm happy he is happy.. But I dunno if he is really happy and that makes me less happy.. Does that make any sense?

It's a life both of you share, so you need to always keep each other in mind! Of course your host will want their own time, but they'll also want you to have your own time - and this should work out fine if you both have the other's best interests at heart. Basically, don't worry about having a good time, he's fine with it! But DO remember to share your time fairly! What that entails is different per system and even per systemmate, usually hosts get more fronting time than their tulpas, but it's really up to you guys to discuss. Lucilyn fronts possibly more often than Lumi because she so much enjoys her time fronting, but she keeps in mind not to take up TOO much time at a time and gives him and the rest of us the time we want, too. (I don't really particularly want any, hence why you see me so infrequently)

(11-20-2018, 03:18 PM)Reilyn Wrote: I think I'm just in a funk the last few days. Dunno why. Low motivation time. I guess this sort of thing is normal? I'm just used to waking up and being excited about doing whatever and trying to get the most out of our time but the last few days I'm really mellowed out. Not sad or anything, just not as energetic. Bleh, between the two of us, I had pretty much been the primary motivating force. Oh well, I won't let it get to me, it's just kinda annoying. A hundred neat thoughts fly by while I just go meeehhh and don't snag any of them. That kinda slacking has even gotten to the stuff I was doing, like Japanese studies and drawing practice. :P

Lucilyn has days where she's not as motivated too, which annoys her, too. I think she just keeps doing the same things she always would, or listens to happy music to put herself in a good mood again. It seems like humans just naturally go back and forth and can't keep up a super good mood forever, something chemical related I guess? If that's true, or if it's at least true for you, we've found the key is learning how to have calm, low-energy days that still aren't negative ones. Tewi is super good at this I think, she maintains that she doesn't need to be "happy" to be "happy", and I guess I trust her to know herself! I might be good at it too, maybe. I'm certainly not as high energy as Lucilyn, by far I can't match her highs, but I also don't have any lows. I take everything as it comes with the same positive attitude and it works just fine for me. I think it's quite a skill to learn - I was lucky to be born with it! - being able to take negative things, process and deal with them without being negatively affected yourself. But it's possible, for sure!


Well anyways, was just stopping by in your guys' progress report! You probably noticed, but the others in my system don't really have time to read PRs, so.. we'll still check the ones I posted in for a few days but if you wanna reach us after that you should post somewhere else or PM us I guess, you know? Especially since they're all about to be really busy with Smash Ultimate and won't barely have time to check normal threads, lol.

Well, I wish you two well!
Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.
Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)
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#54
So just a quick update for a change. It better be quick anyway, on phone and wanna get back to sleep soon. We are having trouble sleeping right now so I figured I'd do something constructive.

EDIT:*hour and a half of phone typing later* Darnit.. Oh well. So much for quick.

Lance has got me to agree to an experiment to see if he can brute force dissassociate away from our body (something neither of us can do currently) and produce a switch. First night of it so far but after we got home from work, during a shower and hour of meditation that followed and half an hour of eyebo visualization training time, we have been repeating as many of the activities and symbolism we have seen in guides for him weakening his grip so he can "let go", leaving me (who is already at front anyway), switched in alone by default. This has also involved me affirming to myself and him and our brain/subconscious/whatever that I'm Reilyn and it's my body and I'm in front and I'm primary/main/dominant.. And he is him and secondary/passive/passenger.

When I say brute force, I mean he plans on pretty much affirming to himself, as constantly as his attention will allow, that he is in my body and whatever he is feeling are my senses, not his.. Till he either gets fed up with trying it or something happens. What is he hoping will happen? He figures repeated denial and stuff, similar to how imposition requires a bit of mental gymnastics and fooling the brain, will dissassociate or brainwash himself into some similar condition.

So far, for me, all the affirmation that I'm me and I'm domimant and everything has had a peculiar refreshing effect that I kinda forgot about. When we first got in this weird co-fronting thing I would find myself progressivly more exhausted after every time he would accidently shove me asside (which happened often), too drained to even really interact much. I could never (and still can't) fall asleep when he was awake so I was dragged along as a weary co-pilot the rest of the day. During these times, affirming I was back in charge, I was me and "hey brain, this is normal and safe and we want it. We trust her in charge" always made me feel a little better. It's almost like there was a bond/connection between us and certain things caused it to degrade somewhat and that had a tiring effect on me, but what I mentioned was able to restrengthen the bond/connection. Eventually, I got used to sharing front and swapping back and forth who was primary in our setup from moment to moment with no drain on either of us all day long, so I kinda forgot about the refreshing/restrengthening thing. Sorta felt like taking a single swig of espresso or soda, just a quick rush of energy and a slight sharpening of attention and focus.

An interesting side note to this is I didn't really realize before how different the two of us act when one of us is super dominant in control at the moment. Like, usually I express myself a bit out of habit, enough that anyone could probably watch or listen for awhile and know something was up. Even on "my" days, he is still present and has a heavy mellowing influence so my crazy behavior is more muted and we end up blending into a relatively energetic, sometimes perky even, but well-balanced single person (as far as onlookers know). But tonight, he was trying so hard to just cut off all influences over me and I was strengthening myself, that I got a glimpse of just how very different I act and even react to certain things without him around.

Don't get me wrong, we haven't switched but he was effectivly plugging his ears and closing his eyes and going "la la laaa, I can't hear you" instead of the typical influence he shares over our co-fronting setup while I simultaneously felt my own identity strong and more free from that influence than usual. It's funny, we have been sharing front for awhile now and handeling almost everything together as "us", with posting on the forums typically excluded, that maybe what we needed was some good healthy "just me" and "just him" time. I mean, at least I'm getting healthy time out of this, felt almost immediately, so I can't complain. I dunno if what he is trying could be called "healthy" but he is stubborn and pretty set on it so that makes him happy and as long as he is happy I'm happy. It's also got the effect of creating a roadmap of easily retractable steps that we can work in reverse or that any readers on here can attempt themselves, unlike almost everything else we have blindly stumbled into, lol.

We are pretty confidant that if he gets it to work he can just take time undoing the suggesstions and stuff and be no worse off. On yet another side note, he decided that the best way for us to start this off was to finally decide that between the two of us, host and tulpa really just meant nothing but a reference to who showed up first. I imagine plenty of systems decided this for themselves long ago but we never really came out and declared it to ourselves, let along you guys. We have been so equal for so long in control, and a bodily sense of "being", that we both "are" the body at the same time at all times, that the distinction between which of us was here first or second has pretty much blurred and faded away into irrelevance.

I will try to keep us somewhat updated, but may not mention anything for a time if nothing new happens. We are still trying to figure out all the ways he can drop out of daily influence and just leave me in charge, even at work and stuff, by myself if need be. It's like this is a beta test for us actually switching or something. Though considering our typical co-fronting situation, we have already been prepared for this for a month or so.

Is it funny that we are normally so connected and a part of each others activities and even each others thoughts that we have to both put specific time and training into figuring out how to act apart from each other? I mean, we know I'm me and he is him and all but we sort of got comfortable with all the ways we were "us" without even noticing. In hindsight I think this is a long-term (if 7 weeks or so can be called long) result of a constant feeling of blending between us as a result of both "being" the body at the same time. I think if we felt like this on day one we would have been freaking out and on here asking people how to figure out who was who since both our identities crashed into each other. Time and experience however, have made it as natural and easy to tell who is who as it is to tell which of us is talking in mind voice. There are just subtleties that can't be appreciated at first that become second nature to detect and it becomes automatic. Even a month ago we had to sometimes stop and ask "was that you?" Or wake up in a haze and need to "ground" to help reaffirm who was who.

It really is neat what a person can get used to.
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#55
Speaking as someone who switches, why does switching appeal to the two of you? It seems to me that a co-fronting state where your partner doesn’t need any of your attention to keep from drifting off is as much a ‘Holy Grail’ tulpamancy achievement as a fully immersive wonderland or complete imposition. I don’t like forcing so I usually don’t, even though it means being alone. (Versus Ember and Iris, who force almost continuously while fronting.)

Studying dissociation I can understand. None of us can dissociate from the body in the slightest degree while conscious, which is why we’ve stopped bothering with wonderland work for the time being. But for us, dissociation would be a joint goal, not an individual one.

-Vesper
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#56
I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise, but having had co-fronting fall into our lap quickly and accidentally, it makes us a little curious about trying everything else. It may seem like a holy grail thing (and I agree, it is) but it's just been our everyday normal thing since I've been something like two weeks old. As great as it is, it's hard for us to see it as something we put years of blood sweat and tears into. Anyway, I know I keep flip-flopping my opinion on switching but that's because it means more to Lance than to me.

He also thinks work towards this will improve his ability to experience things better in wonderland, though to be blunt, I'm not that interested in learning to disassociate away from the body or the real world. Experiencing things through imagination sounds nice and like some sort of long term goal but I'm not desperate enough to try and cut myself off or whatever. At first I just thought it would be helping him with something he wanted to do, since hey I love the guy and he is always super helpful to me so if he wants me to support him in this experiment, sure! The whole part about us being so strongly tied together that even I didn't realize just his presence influences my mood and actions was a surprise to us both. He has spent a lifetime being him after all and we have spend a bit of time being "us", but I realized just how little time I've spent being "me". Er.. How do I put this.. Even when I'm here on the forums and just sort of blabbing on endlessly and I'm kinda transferring thought strait from my mind to type, him watching over me, his habits and his idle thoughts still tug at and influence me. In times when he is talking to other people in meat space and even fully engaged in activities, my presence, behaviors and mood colors all his actions too. One of us has even commented in the past that we were trying to figure out all the interesting ways we could tackle life 2-on-1 from here on out.

What didn't interest me at first (because why, when we have always been so close would I want us to try being further apart?) actually has me a little curious to learn what I would be like, how I would act, how I would think if it was all me and none of him. So for me? As strange as it sounds, my motivation (other than just helping him with something he wants to try) is self-discovery. Maybe a little feeling of getting to run around by myself for a bit to decide if I think it's stifling or an experience worth repeating. I mean, I did say that he might just get tired of the effort and/or lack of results and stop so it's not like anything has happened yet except my curiosity has been roused.

Anyway, he is the one who wants to try and step back to see what it's like, not me. I'm not going anywhere. That it coincides with a curiosity of mine I didn't even know I had is an interesting development, I think. Even I will admit he might get a lot of disappointment out of this because what happens if he does manage to disassociate and ends up building and experiencing a wonderland from the inside, so to speak? Best case scenario for him, I think he is in there without me, and I am out here without him. It's not like he plans on permanently switching or withdrawing from the real world so it just seems like it would get old really fast for both of us.. And I dunno, maybe make us appreciate our holy grail more. So, me? I've got like 3 or 4 things to gain out of all this, even if it has nothing to do with actually switching. I'm game.
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#57
Sounds like good experimentation Reilyn and we do agree that, after spending time influencing eachother, it must be at least a little attractive to see, even if for a short time, what it's like just being you, so why not! Did you two try that idea of having a day or two dedicated to you, where you decide (within limits of course) what to do and how? I feel like it could help in that regard.

The closest we came to Viper just being themselves in the outside world without my involvement was the icy leaf crunching and it did feel really real. It was a spur of the moment thing, but Viper really wanted it, really enjoyed it and did fully and truly take over, while I personally had no thoughts. I just watched, but didn't really think. It did feel like I was a spectator more than anything. So I feel that if you choose where to go, what to do and all that stuff, and Lance is not necessarily all that into it, it could lead to something closer to switching...
... Or maybe all it takes is going for a walk at 1 AM when it's incredibly peaceful and quiet and just having a moment of relaxation :p.

Anyway, we wish you luck with it. I'm sure you two can achieve it, given time. Just make sure to let Lance have some 'him' time too every now and then.
~ We are Venny, the host, and Viper, my soul! ~
        Click here! Come join us on the chat!
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#58
We have had days before where we agreed ahead of time it would be just me and my decisions but.. While the thought seemed exciting at first, it turned out to be just superficial for us because I have entire chunks of time every day where it's like that anyway. He would still step in on my toes without meaning to and lead conversations and do stuff as the situation seemed best for him. To be fair, I did the exact same thing to him all the time so it's not like either of us were offended by it.

Anyway, there have only ever been little things, little clues that popped up in seemingly random moments which added up to realizations. Like the time we both talked out loud back to back (which we normally don't do, whoever is assumed to be co-pilot at that moment uses mind voice) and provided an instant comparison between our use of pitch and speech mannerisms that were previously assumed and casually noted but not really observed. It was like we just knew yeah, we did things differently but never quite how different. Me hopping around and failing to sleep half the night because I was mostly an unmitigated bundle of excitement, with him trying so hard to focus on withdrawing his (normally automatic) blendy influence mellowing me out. It reminded me of our very first day co-fronting, which I posted my experience in here of laying awake half the night because I had no idea how a person was supposed to stop and just "go" to sleep. I mean, even right now I think we slept maybe 4 hours and  I'm still zooming pretty much going "me day me day hapyhappy wooo!" but I'm just a high energy person (most of the time) for better or worse.

It was just another moment like the talking thing where we were both able to notice  a difference somewhat and it's got me curious of what I'll be like, how I will feel like expressing myself and such when his influence is basically gone instead of actively being intentionally repressed when he is focusing on doing so. These last few posts have been full of such blab I think because this is really the first time I'm considering these things and what kind of positive aspects of switching might have. Before yesterday I think I was stuck on "ehh why bother, sounds pointless", but not now. I'm seeing possible benefits.
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#59
Ohhh gosh switching! Xar had a theory that switching may be easier if the visualization, or mentalization is better. Something like having Lance get in a wonderland and try to sense as much stuff in wonderland as he can. Then you should try separate the senses if they aren't already and you'd take the main front seat.

I'd like to try switching sometime too but it's still a bit scary. I don't want to be stuck main front without Xar. It's not like we're living alone so some big experiments seem to worry Xar, like switching. I dunno, tell when you've made progress with it. I wanna hear how it goes! 
Hello! I am the other side of me and Xar's system. 
Me and Xar's Journey 
Feel a bit down or just want more happiness? Click here
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#60
It’s interesting that you’re feeling more purely you as a result of Lance’s dissociation efforts. I feel less purely me when I switch in, to the extent that I’ll review what I typed while switched in after I switch out to make sure I agree with it. I associate the feel of the body heavily with Ember, so when the body is mine, I feel more than a little like her, and sometimes need reassurance from my companions that I’m still me.

Also, switching in means I intercept certain deeply ingrained patterns of thought rising out of the subconscious instead of Ember. Apparently, she’s believed a number of things so many times and reacted the same way to situations so many times, that the thoughts are part of the body’s ‘user profile’ rather than part of her personality. I’d like to write my own user profile, but the results of my efforts so far appear to be largely that, five minutes after we switch back, she’ll encounter something I changed and think in sudden panic, ‘Gah! Who am I again?’

-Vesper
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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