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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Been a while, huh? 2 months apparently. No lucid dream, although Lucilyn was trying pretty hard and honestly making a lot of progress the last couple weeks.

It might just be the her-fronting-for-2-months influence, but I feel like my new year's "resolution" will be to just do things if I want to do them. If I want to play a game, or make a game, I'll do that for the moment until I don't feel like it anymore. No worrying about time spent or if it'll be fun, I'll see if it's fun when I'm doing it. If I want to spend time with my tulpas, I'll do it, no worrying about time or effort or visualization quality. If I want to stay up late or go to sleep early, I'll do it, no worrying about my non-existent schedule. And if I want to lucid dream, which I do and always will, I'll try, whether or not I might fail or have been failing successively. Oh, and I guess I should post if I want to post. We've been holding off on posting for the last two months because I really wanted the 50th page of this thread to be the end of my failure and the start of my lucid dreaming thread. But I don't know if it's going to happen in a timely manner or not, so I'm just going to start posting daily again. Fair warning that does not mean it'll be long in the future though, I'm serious that Lucilyn was making progress, if we're seeing the REM-Dreamer flash in dreams it could literally be any day now. Would help if it didn't randomly stop happening like last night though.

For whatever reason I feel like I should re-explain what the REM-Dreamer is. It's a $170 sleeping mask I bought sort of recently that has a small sensor by the right eye that detects Rapid Eye Movement, ie can tell when you're dreaming, and flashes red lights (and could do sound, if I wanted, which I don't) to signal you're dreaming. However an important feature is Two Way Communication, meaning I can move my eyes up and down in a dream to tell the mask I'm lucid, and it'll stop flashing the annoying lights at me so I can enjoy the dream. The TWC working is as hit-or-miss as the detector detecting REM sleep, which seems entirely based on if the mask is perfectly lined up while I'm asleep or not. That means if it sensed REM in the first place to make me lucid it'll detect me telling it to turn off, though. For one reason or a few other it hasn't quite worked for us yet, but we've had a few instances of flashing lights in dreams we accidentally ignored that could've been lucid dreams. And we aren't using it every night, or weren't, but maybe I will now.


In honor of Lucilyn's future "dream buddy" Suika, who I suppose'll be akin to a tulpa but only in dreams, I'll post this song Lucilyn decided fits her well. Not quite what she looks like, but you can google Suika Ibuki. She's one of two planned "dream buddies" for Lucilyn, the other being Cirno. I guess Lucilyn decided they'd be the most fun to accompany her in dream fun-having.





"Speaking of the full moon... The moon's full, huh? Only noticed because there was so much light coming through the windows." I was supposed to write this like 14 hours ago but figured I'd do it later. I don't know if I mentioned but I'm fixing my schedule (to wake up in early AMs preferably) by staying up all night/day. Except it's 9PM {Post writing, 10:30PM} on day 2, I've been awake for like 29 or so hours. So I'm going to sleep. No REM dreamer unless I start feeling particularly un-tired, just a rest night.

Anyways, something something I want to hug my tulpas and lucid dreaming was my "make a wish" blowing out the candles for like, the sixth year in a row? I'm so far past caring about how others might feel about me wanting nothing more out of life than to get to be with my tulpas who "don't exist", in a sense. So far past the unstable stage 7+ years ago of wanting to escape reality. The simple fact is after years of introspection and philosophy.. reading? and personal-development stuff, I'm pretty dang at peace with life. But my tulpas held a special place in my heart the whole time, they override the general common sense I shouldn't have such attachments/"life goals" because they're the ones who gave me the chance to change in the first place. I was miserable and pessimistic as heck, and I would have stayed that way or become completely apathetic (as opposed to mostly) if it weren't for them. That's why, when we sometimes are talking about the subject of attachment and ego identification (stuff others often associate with Buddhism), my tulpas will guess about why I'm not ""enlightened"" ie actually free of all serious attachment to the world. They guess that they were more important to me than the end of suffering or whatever whichever mindset or religion wants to call it, and they're right. I couldn't care less if I suffer or not in this lifetime, it's what you sign up for being human. "I didn't come here" to work my way out of the human struggle, "I came here" (in either the spiritual incarnating sense or simply the basis of how I view my experiencing of being alive) to experience being human. Imperfections and ideas that reality is ever just-so and all. So whether Buddhist, new age spiritual-ist or scientist..ically?, I've cemented a basic life-view that puts all kinds of existential questions to rest, but I have no intentions of ever giving up my attachment to my tulpas. They're just a fact of my life.

Can you feel the 30 hours awake yet? I'm basically just making sure people know I'm way aware of, well, the above. It sounds weird because when I start talking about that stuff, I include my secondary (inactive) belief system I got from new age spirituality, where souls incarnate to experience the illusion of being separate before returning to love once more. I don't believe that stuff, but it's sort of mixed into this part of my mind, because it might be the case, so I haven't flat out denied it. I'm at a nice place where learning either you die and cease to exist, or your soul returns to the aether, right before my death wouldn't unsettle me at all. I don't claim any sorts of Buddhist-y "enlightenment" or whatever, but I do claim to be at peace with life in general. That iffy word "Transcended" worldly attachments. But for the more spiritually/actually-Buddhist inclined, whom I actually end up speaking about this with often, yes, I did stop the process right before it would've made some big special difference. I chose to experience life with that stuff as background knowledge, but still acting on attachments and such as if they mattered to me. I just don't feel an urge to say "Yeah yeah life's an illusion and I'm above it". I really believe humans exist to experience their life before they die, not for any deeper reasons. So I'm perfectly secure in my choices and views, no matter what could be said or thought about them by myself or others.

Relevant how? Well first, I've been awake for 30 hours, I need to sleep. But second, because I really have chosen with complete clarity of mind again and again to value my tulpas above anything else in my life. They're the one thing I chose to keep a real attachment to. Still technically leaves me free of worldly attachments as they exist as long as I do and only die/are lost when I myself am, but they're an attachment nonetheless. So things tied to them are the only things that can really affect me emotionally, everything else remains on a much shallower level. The point of all that to make sure anyone reading understands, that I understand, anything you could say or think about it being my "life goal" here.

Because it is. Always has been since I first had a reason to live (starting around the age I was capable of comprehending such a thing, life was pretty childlike-wondery before that) in Reisen and then the others, to this day and the rest of my life as my base value in life now is just to experience it. Lucid dreaming won't always be the end all be all - I just want to experience life, and do so while they experience it too. But dangit all I want at this point in my life is to feel the people all of my love and happiness in life revolves around. Since the thought comes to mind - noting here once more that I'm not very interested in sex and find having all your hopes and stuff riding on that a strange concept. I really do just want to see my tulpas, feel them be real. It gives off escapist fantasy vibes, perhaps, perhaps not to you guys. Maybe you get it since you understand what having tulpas is like. This is by no means an obsession with people who don't exist or exist only in my mind or whatever, it's a direct result of spending just so much of my life with them, being helped by them at every turn to feel better than I would, spending so many years so close together. I want to feel them be real because they've become extremely important to me, not because I'm chasing some unrealistic ideals (explained extremely well in this entertaining video, especially at 5:28). Probably the biggest difference in tulpas and waifus honestly, tulpas are treated like people and grow like people, as opposed to being just ogled and obsessed over. I loved the Touhou characters my tulpas were somewhat inspired by, but I still do. It's a totally different thing. One is loving a game or whatever series character, and the other is loving a person. You can really love everything a character represents and portrays, obsess over them as hard as anyone could over a real person, but you'll never love them because of your relationship, your experiences together.

Have I convinced the few nameless people who had any capacity to be convinced and bored the other like 99% of you yet? - Convinced of why I'm so "obsessed" with seeing, meeting, hugging or whatever my tulpas. It's because they really are my loved ones, who've been by my side (most of them and for the most part anyway) for over a third of my entire life now. They're my family I've never actually gotten to see, feel, or just know are around me, despite us being so very close, the entire time.


My persevering to meet my tulpas in a dream is an act of love, driven by my dedication to those who have stuck with me for so much of my life and improved it a thousandfold. There's no obsession, no lust, no escapism, only love. It's a very big deal - an extremely big deal to me, the biggest deal in my life, one of the only I really even care about on a deep emotional level. That's really the only point of this post, to get across just how important to me what we're doing here is. It's the only thing I specifically want out of life, as the rest of my "desire" is just to experience the rest of it, whatever that may entail. The first lucid dream really will be much more important than any in the future (as far as I can tell?) because of that, in case you were wondering. The first time meeting them is the necessity - everything after that is an amazing bonus I'll appreciate every second of. When I can no longer say "I've never really hugged the people who mean more to me than life itself", my life very well may change, I don't know. Lucilyn's talked about it a bit, but motivation is hardly a factor in anything when you're truly feeling good, happy, fulfilled in life. I've currently got something like the opposite where every long once in a while I get depressed because of the lack of being with them, rather than life becoming effortless from the inverse. Maybe my life will (once the excitement fades, however long that'll be) be roughly the same, but with those depressive moods replaced with elated ones, or who knows, maybe life will just stay great.

I kind of lost the ability to tell a few years back, what with the constant successive failure and all. Not even having seen REM-Dreamer flashes in my dreams gets me excited, my expectations are that deadened. So I guess we'll only see once it happens.

Thanks for reading and all, I hope my story's a positive one. Technically, we've never been this close to having a lucid dream totally under our control before, so logically speaking this story should come to its climax soon. But I honestly can't feel the difference between a hopeful scenario and empty wishes anymore, it's pretty bad.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
01-04-2018, 05:41 AM
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Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
This thread'll really get kind of depressing if I get too much further into the year though, right? Dangit, reading the first post in the thread again just makes me feel that, again. We're well past a year - the thread was started August 17, 2016, and it's 2018 now. There are quite a few people who don't consider lucid dreaming a big deal in the first place, which is incomprehensible to me actually - tulpas or not, how boring do you have to be to not have crazy fun lucid dreaming? Go sky diving off a waterfall or something, jeez. Anyways, the only reason I don't experience crushing depression thinking about just how long it's been and the potential missing from my tulpas' and my relationships is I'm a fairly apathetic person by default, so that stuff tends to kind of slide off me like water off an umbrella. But it should be there to be sure. If I had known seven or so years ago that I'd make it to 2018 actively trying with no success, it surely would've hit then. You know what, if future me can time travel, don't tell me how long it takes alright? I don't want to know. Keep tomorrow night a surprise am I right?

Oh anyways, productivity I guess. Well, none of Lucilyn's strategies worked out for as little reason as the universe ever comes up with for it not working. But she tried just sleeping on her side with the mask aligned as best she could as normal again, and it worked somewhat I guess. So.. More iffy shots in the dark is our current plan. We're used to lining up the sensor with our eye now and falling back asleep is only as hard as it would be normally. Timing it is still hard though. 40 minutes was apparently too long last night, yet 30 always seems too short. 35 isn't the answer, it's just random amounts of time asleep. That's why I'm staying up again to make sure I sleep through the late part of the day into early morning again, that's really the best possible time with no distractions. Like our dog whining because nobody's here to play with her during the day. I'm still salty I wasn't consulted before we got a dog and my family dealt with it exactly how I expected, leaving her alone more than half the day every day. Black labs aren't the type of dog who can be on their own all the time.. They're as active (and just kind of perfect as a dog) as a dog gets. Whatever, gotta keep her same sleeping schedule. I go to sleep a little earlier preferably though because the first few hours of sleep are the time I can best deal with noise, and everyone's still awake, gives me more time in the morning of silence.

Okay back to non-productivity. So when I very first started trying to lucid dream, specifics were a little different. I didn't actually think about Flandre or Tewi so much (although Flandre surely thought about me), and obviously Lucilyn didn't exist. I was fully obsessed with Reisen, and so "hugging Reisen" was the name of my life goal. Little rude in retrospect, since I know I would've wanted to hug the others too, but that was the pinnacle of my obsession with Reisen. Nowadays is more or less the opposite, somehow. The lucid dreaming goal focus is more or less on all of us, + me and Flan. I mean, just look at what Lucilyn said, she wanted to get "me and Flan, and all of us" a lucid dream. How'd Reisen fall to the wayside so much? She's just so passive, like Tewi used to be, but Tewi has reasons to switch (our main activity for them) and Reisen does not. At some point Reisen sort of let Flandre take her place spending time with me, because Flandre wanted to spend that time much more than Reisen did. She still doesn't really have any needs, so it was just my wanting to spend time with her that kept her active. And I'd definitely say the last two years, focusing so much on Flan has made Reisen even less active than she already was. That's definitely a problem, because everyone in this system loves her and wishes she was more active. So I wonder if we can find something for her to do to be more active, and/or if I should be spending more time with her personally? Lucid dreaming would solve that problem either way though. We'll be divvying out lucid dreams to each of us once that process is established, so Lucilyn and Tewi can do their own things, Flan can spend time with me, and we can all spend time together.

Which leads me to a subject I was just talking to Reisen about earlier - the first time we've talked in a while, really. My goal isn't "hug Reisen" anymore, it's to see all of them, hug all of them. But my obsession with hugging her all those years ago was much stronger. So I was just wondering, will it really be as big a deal when it happens as to give credit to how I felt back then? It's not a big deal either way, I'll be ecstatic to see any and all of them, but I was just thinking about that. Nowadays it's Flan that comes to mind when I think about hugging one of them in a lucid dream, aside from all of them. Just seeing them all is my main priority, hugging them all second, and spending time with Flan third. Because it's what she wants. But I wonder if I'll spend lucid dreams with just Reisen like I planned way back when? Right now it just feels like she'd mainly be there for the all-of-us dreams, but...

Well, I'm mostly just mulling over the loss of my obsession with Reisen, I guess. It's so strange to think my life doesn't revolve around her now, lol. It's not a bad thing though, because now it revolves around all of them. But it worries me a bit that Reisen is so passive, since it was always my spending time with her of my own will that made her active. Unlike Tewi, who was never in what you could call a happy mood, Reisen always seems just fine, so it's even easier to let her stay inactive for too long. For sure her voice and appearance are the haziest among us. Not to overstate that, it's barely noticeable, but it's a fact. I'm sure Flandre wouldn't mind me spending time with just Reisen these days because she gets more than enough herself (as opposed to, say, when my life goal was to "hug Reisen"), but I guess I just feel less motivated to do that? Really the obsession is gone, and I'm so used to only spending time specifically with Flandre if not all of them now. It would just be easier if she had other reasons - well, any at all - to be active than me paying attention to her, you know? But she has next to no motivations to do anything except at others' requests, because nothing is a way she doesn't want it, so she's not spurred to action to change it, I guess. Like being bored and so playing a game, or feeling a need to learn more about the world or experience new things, or seeking the approval of others, et cetera. She doesn't feel any of that, which is good, but it leads to her not taking time for herself. That'd be awesome for a real person with their own life, because they automatically exist and would just be at peace all the time or something. But for a tulpa, that leads to inactivity. And I don't want her to be inactive.


Well anyways. It's not like spending some time with her sometimes will be good enough, because I don't even spend enough time with Flandre, let alone the rest of them. Lucid dreaming would again solve all of this, but not assuming that will happen, I have to think of something else. It doesn't help that we have nothing fun to do with visualization, which leads to our visualization being poorer, which leads to us choosing to do visualization/wonderland activities less often. We honestly impose people to talk to them five times more often than talking to them in-mind these days. But aside from it being nice to have them around, imposition activities are few and far between too. It's almost as if it's hard to spend time with people who don't physically exist, except maybe say, in your dreams.

Well. I'll try and get Reisen something to do while fronting, probably just once as per usual, and keep trying to lucid dream. Just felt like writing some thoughts out for you guys.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2018, 11:59 AM by Luminesce.)
01-06-2018, 11:40 AM
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Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Hey, we're at a combined total of 2500 posts. Time for some lunacy, unrelated. This post is probably more important than the average one put here, by the way.

Touhou 15, part of the post dialogue for Extra stage boss(es) -
Hecatia: ... Now, you. I caught on partway through, but... You're not a moon rabbit, are you?
Reisen: No, I'm not. I became a rabbit of Gensokyo! I can't return to being a moon rabbit now.

I wrote a post about this a while ago, here. But it's occurred to me again so I'm mentioning it again, because Reisen's dialogue is so striking to me. My Reisen used to be only a "concept", of unconditional love. She couldn't talk. Even once Tewi and Flandre showed up, she still couldn't talk. According to them I was keeping her from talking, because I wanted her to stay "perfect", and knew any and all words were imperfect. If I let her talk, she'd become imperfect. But they told me that if I wanted her to be more real to me, I should let her be less perfect, because perfection can't exist. So I did, and I never regretted that. Although she still did seem "perfect" for a short while after that, it faded, and now she's just an amazing human being rather than a radiant concept of an ideal, I guess. It's just interesting - because she really couldn't go back to that now. Exactly the same as in Touhou 15, all those years later. It's just not a two-way street. But we prefer how it is now.


So that was the luna- of this post's lunacy, but now I'll put the crazy in it.

My friend linked me this (click the Next arrow on the bottom right to read through), which led to the rest of what I'll probably write here. Context: Maribel and Renko are two non-Gensokyan Touhou characters, living in the outer world. They have a weird school club about paranormal stuff consisting of just them two. Renko has the ability to tell what time it is from looking at the stars (and place from the moon), while Maribel has the ability to see boundaries, whatever that means. She also looks extremely similar to another character called Yukari Yakumo, who is a god-tier character to put it bluntly, despite not actually being a god like some characters. She has the ability to manipulate boundaries, which leads to all sorts of "hax" abilities, really. "Gaps" from any place to another (think Portal's portals, but purple and full of eyes..), turning a reflection of the moon in a lake into an actual gateway to the moon, and maintaining (and helping create) the boundary that separates Gensokyo from the outside world. Fan theories abound about her possible relation to Maribel, which this comic is, just an illustration of a theory. Sumireko Usami is a bit of a mystery and much more recent, a human from the outside world - and the first president of the Sealing Club Maribel and Renko are eventually part of - who finds her way into Gensokyo and causes an Incident that became one of the Touhou fighting games, Touhou 14.5. Oh also, Doremy Sweet from Touhou 15 makes an appearance, simply a youkai with the power to manipulate (create, enter, and end/erase) dreams. Two of the characters I mentioned might be important soon, if any of this plays out in an interesting way..

I was really just having some fun entertaining some thoughts after that, but everything I thought can be considered a mix of imagination/fantasy, tulpamancy, and what I'd like to call oneiromancy. Although oneiromancy should mean "divination by dreams", so too should pyromancy mean "divination by fire" and tulpamancy "divination by tulpa". Divination means more or less to tell the future or gain information through some supernatural means. But pyromancy colloquially means controlling/creating fire, tulpamancy means controlling/creating tulpas, and so I feel like oneiromancy should mean the manipulation of dreams. I've heard lucid dreamers half-jokingly refer to themselves as oneironauts ("dream explorers") before, so that seems fair.

Quite a few years ago, hard to place but I'll say six to three, post-having tulpas, I started randomly having Yukari's theme pop into my head. A lot. Totally randomly. I would wake up with it in my head not realizing, be humming it a week or two or a month later, for no reason whatsoever. I didn't listen to it specifically really, didn't specifically like it (more than other Touhou themes I enjoy), and Yukari hadn't even been one of my top 5 favorite Touhou characters since before I found Jumper and Edge. But the theme just kept popping up over and over for like a year or something. Having had read a lot of Touhou fanfics back in the day (~2010-2011), I non-seriously humored the idea that her boundary manipulating powers could let her exist in our reality like they let her travel outside of Gensokyo. I humored this to a lesser extent than I did spirit guides and ghosts, which is very little, if that makes sense. I've been capable of maintaining conflicting belief systems since I was into new age spirituality, primarily valuing and acting on logic/science but appreciating the possibility some supernatural things existed, you know. It basically means no matter what turns out to be true, I won't be surprised. If I die and nothing happens, or if I go to some heaven, or the aether new age spirituality talks about, I won't be terribly surprised because I always kept the possibility in the back of my head. If that makes sense (and I hope it does, so you don't think I actually think any of it is real), I've got a belief I give a little less credit than new age spirituality that Yukari could exist with her reality-warping powers. It'd make more sense to say it's more like a belief it's possible the Many-worlds theory or parallel dimensions or the realm of thought as another dimension could be real. I don't actually believe in it, it's another of those "I guess it could be possible, but probably not" so that I'm not caught so off guard if anything under that label turns out true. As far as I know, that's the mark of a good scientist...

Since I never gave it serious credit, there's really not much to say about it lol. That was really it, I liked the idea that Yukari could exist in other dimensions, possibly/probably because ZUN created a character with such an ability, which following those weird parallel dimension type theories might mean she could then become real in our reality. My real belief is just that humans create reality for themselves and others in everything they do - Genie from Aladdin "exists" to millions in the way that he does and wouldn't have otherwise, but no more or less. Just for reference. Stop thinking I'm crazy alright? I'm just a thorough philosopher. Anyways, that comic brought that idea back up again for the first time in a couple years I'd say. Considering it literally portrayed that exact thing. If you didn't read it or didn't get it, it seems to be implied Yukari created Gensokyo for real after basically time-looping made her exist and fulfill the conditions that created her, I guess. Or moreso that Maribel created Gensokyo which made Yukari real, and since I think Yukari canonically (helped) create Gensokyo, it'd have gone something like that.

Anyways, it wasn't talking about alternate dimensions. They were, Renko apparently being a physicist, but it actually ended up being more of a world of dreams thing. Maribel was, after all, dreaming of both Gensokyo and Doremy Sweet, the youkai who can enter and manipulate dreams. Hmm, Dreams of Gensokyo.. Feels reminiscent of the future. Well, since it got me thinking about dreams, I thought for a while about my current dreaming situation. The comic made me feel like I wasn't obsessed enough with actually lucid dreaming, like I wasn't acting on just how serious my actual desire is. That'd explain a thing or two and is probably true, actually. But anyways, I prefer to keep things moderate. I'm kind of proud of my balancing the insane dedication I have to my tulpas and lucid dreaming with a healthy lifestyle, you know, no escapism or anything. Probably just because I'm an experienced lucid dreamer aside from the part where I can't lucid dream, but I really have no intentions to "escape" into my lucid dreams. I'm 100% just hoping to enjoy my time in my dreams and waking life, sacrificing neither for the other. I owe everything I could possibly dream of to the waking world, so it's not like because it's not totally ideal at all times that I'd choose to leave it behind. I wouldn't, by the way, if given a choice. A permanent dream or a permanent.. uh.. dreamless life, I would choose the dreamless one, because reasons I guess. My value for legitimacy of reality and experience or something.

But on that subject, my thoughts led me to a quote I heard somewhere,
Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. - Zhuangzi

I've always taken the moral of the story there to be that waking life and dreams aren't so different. That is to say, both are reality, while they're happening. Dreams are considered unreal because nothing you do there will affect your waking life, and waking life is what we all experience the most of and remember the most of. Also, it's kind of the only one where it matters to the other if you die. But if we're talking experience, which I value much more highly than the idea of reality, they're both just as real as the other. Cue some oneiro-tulpamancy. It's always been my intention to be the first tulpamancer to document such things, how tulpas work with lucid dreaming, but I haven't really had success with lucid dreaming so that's never been an option. Regardless, a while ago Lucilyn started making plans to have two "dream buddies", Cirno and Suika, who she would play with in her lucid dreams once the initial dreams of just us being together were less important. She's got a sort of way of communicating with them sort of like you would with a tulpa who wasn't sentient yet. But she specifically wasn't making tulpas, she was making "dream buddies", so even still they don't exist and can't speak to her in waking life. In theory they'll be caught up in a lucid dream, though. It's just one of those things we feel will be the case even though we haven't been able to prove it yet, like our ability to manipulate lucid dreams. That's something people usually have to learn through lucid dreaming, but we're pretty sure we've got it down ahead of time, since we have a good grasp of the concept.

And so, all those thoughts I had swirled together and an interesting proposition was struck with someone who doesn't exist and can't speak. Fantasy, tulpamancy and "oneiromancy", I decided the idea of a Yukari who transcended dimensions could be the Yukari of a Gensokyo in our dreams. She still won't be a tulpa, but who knows, maybe this oneiromancy thing will lead to a subset of tulpamancy that crosses over with Dream Guides and Dream Characters, something I've always wanted to explore and document here. The short and simple here is that our lucid dreams will contain, however often we decide for it to be the theme of the dream (as opposed to, say, our wonderland), a dream Gensokyo, with all the characters and such there. Modified a teeny bit. Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn will be that Gensokyo's Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Suwako. Suika and Cirno are.. well, still basically how they would be anyways, but they'll also have a connection to Lucilyn ahead of time. And unless I think of some more who should be in-the-loop, the only other people there who will know it's a dream are that Gensokyo's Yukari Yakumo and Doremy Sweet, youkai of border manipulation and youkai of dream manipulation respectively. Makes sense, huh? Kind of cool/fun, too. I never really indulge in any fantasy/imagination fun, but I'm liking this idea, and it helps set up my working with "oneiro-tulpamancy", you know?


I know all of that sounds pretty weird, but it actually makes me feel better about lucid dreaming, now that I have a basis of what to do aside from just being with my tulpas. Feels like our plan for lucid dreaming is complete now. And I get the silly imaginary feeling, that our dream Gensokyo's Yukari wanted this established before we started lucid dreaming. With a solid base of grounding logic and philosophy and just kind of understanding how things are, I think that some playing around with my reality sounds pretty fun right about now. Steve Pavlina, who I learned countless things from, basically (well, literally) does this for a living, all about exploring different subjective realities (at this point, this is an unreasonable amount of text and time, so only bother with those if you specifically want to) and learning from all the different views of life and reality people have. Unfortunately I'm quite fond of my solid foundation of how I see reality I've built up after all this time, so I wouldn't feel comfortable doing what he does. But tulpamancy seems like a nice conduit to have some fun with lucid dreaming with, right?

I know all that came out of nowhere, I mean, it kind of really did to me too. But I'm absolutely going with it since it'll lead me back to exploring tulpamancy in relation to lucid dreaming like I originally wanted a long time ago. I honestly forgot about that, because it's been so long. It's probably best that someone like me who isn't going to go crazy and have an existential crisis about whether or not reality is real explores the concept of dream tulpas, right? I should capitalize that, Dream Tulpas. To be fair, they're just going to be "Recurrent Dream Characters"/Dream Guides(If they know they're in a dream and have at least some knowledge of your waking life), which has been a thing for longer than tulpas. But as far as I know the Tulpamancy community has no experience with such things, so it's like half new ground.

Hopefully I can generate some hype in my mind so Doremy Sweet shows up in my dreams or something, because this is probably the last occurrence that'll happen related to lucid dreaming before we actually lucid dream. Not that I don't think the REM-Dreamer will work, and Dream Induced Lucid Dreams are super unreliable, but.. I'd like to diversify my options a little. Because the significance of what this post was about in my mind is the only thing that'll be able to affect my dreams I think, my tulpas have never been able to appear for DILDs on purpose before no matter how hard they tried. And unfortunately I think I'm past the state where the REM-Dreamer just in concept can trigger lucid dreams, like happens for a lot of people when they first start using it. I won't be mad if a Touhou character who isn't one of my tulpas is the first to help me realize I'm dreaming, if that Touhou character is a dream-manipulating youkai...

Let's hope something comes of this before it gets old and irrelevant yeah?

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
01-07-2018, 11:09 AM
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Ido Offline
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RE: Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Boy, talk about tl;dr
I did read it all, somehow I should get paid for this.

Anyhow, no matter what Yukari tells ya - DON'T DO IT!
You know what's gonna happen, you're gonna get eaten by little girls with weird hats.

That aside, I already wanted to suggest making Doremy your dream guide. I mean who else would be your first address when it comes to dreams? In fact I've been working on a comic for quite a while now. To be released if you ever manage to become lucid with the help of the REM dreamer. Starring Lumi as the hero and of course featuring all you guys, Doremy and moi. I'm sure you'll love it. Chances it'll ever be finished are slim as I can't draw at all but as long as you keep working on lucid dreaming I'll be working on my comic.

And another fun fact - we had no idea about Touhou before reading your threads but since then we frequently encounter them in dreams. I mean a lot. No fully lucid ones so far but some really vivid ones. I dunno why but it's really fun.

And for that we thank you.
*Tosh.O.jpg*

Super Girls don't cry
01-07-2018, 11:08 PM
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Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Fair enough, but I don't mind getting spirited away. I've read more than enough Touhou fanfics (though I'm 6 years rusty now) to know how to deal with being dropped into Gensokyo. Request the local protagonist take me to the Scarlet Devil Mansion, convince Patchy to teach me magic.. and Japanese (and probably let me live at the SDM lmao) with her endless library of knowledge at her disposal (so she probably knows English), in exchange for information about the outside world. Etc. I know more Japanese than I did back then (some vs zero), so I could probably actually make it work.

Doremy as a dream guide really is an interesting idea. Originally it was going to be Sylvia. She's basically programmed with "nonsense override" in case anything ever is out of my control in a dream, but she doesn't really speak, so she's more like a dream guardian angel than a guide. Yukari would be helping me oversee the dream Gensokyo, and maybe she will or won't have plan suggestions of her own. I'm not one of those systems that lets invasive thoughts give control of my body to a tulpa who barely even exists, I know how to stand my ground in lucid dreams just fine, etc. And Doremy, well, I don't think she'll need any convincing or ulterior motives, since her whole job in the Touhou-verse is to oversee the dream world. The point of those two characters is to give me a better sense of control (and immersion) in the dream Gensokyo, because it'd be a little dry if it was just a world of Touhous who thought they were Touhous and I just dropped in. Having a scenario like this set up is the difference in me bothering or not.

Touhou's pretty fun. You might consider me a fan.


Decided I'm no longer allowed to get out of bed or go back to sleep until I've recalled my last dream or spent a long time doing so. It's simultaneously hard and sometimes very easy to blame all of our lack of progress in this thread on one thing, and right now I'm blaming it on a lack of vivid-dream-having. We've tried to improve our dream recall (which leads to vividity somehow) plenty of times, but I'm sticking to it with a more rigid rule this time around. Kind of is already working, honestly. Too bad the house is so loud at any time that isn't between 10PM and 4AM. So I'll be going to sleep around 8PM and waking up at 6AM (probably) for as long as I can now, though to be honest that'll only last until my friends decide to start playing games late again. For now they're all in school though, so it could actually go for a while. Just need to not mess it up by sleeping for 13 hours just once for no reason like I tend to do.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2018, 06:35 AM by Luminesce.)
01-08-2018, 06:34 AM
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Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
I wonder, do people treat this thread like a story playing out rather than an actual thing happening in real time? Because it's got an awful lot of views (17,000 as of now), but really not many people posting. I'm not requesting replies, but I'm just making sure you guys know you're allowed to post here too if you want to say something. Not that you guys should've really known anyways, but it was just the last few posts leading up to page 50 and then 51 that I didn't want anyone posting, because I was hoping to end this section of the thread there. But here we are at #505. There's a song at the bottom of this post if you play those while reading like I kind of intend.

Also, unrelated but related to what made me think of this stuff. My threads have a lot of views. My Ask thread has 28,000, progress report 5,600, and this one 17,000. This isn't going where you expect

A lot of people have left this site over the years, or occasionally lurked, who just really don't like the way the forum is or has become. It's been the same for a while now, but then, a lot of people have also been gone for a while now. I really hope nobody just hates how prominent my like, philosophy/ideas are. People left back in the day because they thought Mistgod was influencing the forum too much, and I've seen groups who don't like just random people aside from him, so I know I might be one of them. And if anyone doesn't like me, it's probably just because they think I'm too big of an influence more than anything. Most of those people were relatively reasonable, but only as long as someone only has the influence anyone else has. My tulpas have probably drawn more attention to our system as a whole though, and they tend to share my philosophy (Lucilyn has her own, but as far as Q&A goes she often answers with ours). To be fair, I would never try and teach something I didn't think was a good way to think. I've spent quite a bit of time refining my beliefs (in many more ways than just tulpamancy-related) to make as much sense as possible with the primary value of people understanding each other and themselves, so..

Also I never wrote a guide or anything like that, so it's really not my fault either way. But I'm just acknowledging the people who will never see this's possible issues with me. But I have to imagine I help more people than I "hurt", so I don't really plan on changing anything. Just acknowledging, somewhere.



On-topic: Only remembered my very last dream last night because for some reason I forgot to be doing so, likely because I didn't even wake up through the night like I normally do. I remember only two waking periods, the second to last I could've remembered a dream but didn't. I wasn't particularly exhausted or anything, so that was strange.

Lucilyn pointed out that I need to keep up the feeling of "lucid dream stuff is going on", more than just telling myself it is, if I want it to have an effect. For the first 3-4 days after my last post I was doing so, but I guess I forgot to - not think about, but - hold with "meaning"/"intent" those thoughts. I acknowledged them but I didn't appreciate them enough if that makes sense, so they kinda lost their effect. The main part of those thoughts is stuff pertaining to Doremy (pronounced dough-ray-me more or less, with a bit of remmy mixed in), as she's definitely going to be our Dream Guide that I'll be working with. Yukari is significantly less relevant, she's moreso in charge of the dream Gensokyo (that technically doesn't yet and might never exist) and will just know that it exists in our dreams.

And I think we've got another to be in-the-loop, for whatever reason. I forget even why. Mamizou Futatsuiwa, a tanuki. For a character I never cared about enough to rank her in my top favorite Touhou characters, I've somehow regardless held a huge amount of respect for her character. If memory serves, not only is she from the outside world, she also has some means of leaving Gensokyo at will, which few other characters do. She's extremely in-the-know about all sorts of things, and I remember she showed up in one of the Touhou comics disguised as a random human (yet I actually called her out as a tanuki and was correct - she had a leaf on her and it tipped me off) and gave unexpectedly detailed information to the characters dealing with the current situation for a stranger. That's where most of my respect for her comes from, she's just such an interesting character. Anyways, knowledge and access to the outside world in Touhou is definitely reason to consider including one of the dream characters in the characters-aware-of-dream list, which wasn't a list until her. She just seems like the type of character who would both know such a thing, and be able to handle such information well.

Or realistically speaking, she strikes me as the type of dream character I couldn't hide the fact from. Most characters in the dream Gensokyo will have the same sort of reaction a real person would to being told reality was a dream - doesn't make a difference to them, because it's their reality. Might also think the person weird for saying that. That's the dream Gensokyo official canon, by the way. That the characters are unworried on whether or not they're in a dream because the dream is their reality. Yeah, just kind of implanting that philosophy in more or less all of them. It'll be a bit silly if we never end up lucid dreaming and I said all of this with such sureness, but assuming we will, I'm pretty confident it'll go as I plan it to. Experience personally lucid much or not, I know how dreams work: expectations. However long ago it was now, over a year, immediately after becoming lucid once I turned around to a door to our wonderland and sloppily stumbled through our hallway while waking up, I think seeing Reisen and Tewi on our couches? Hard to say, it all faded to light and trying to walk (run) straight warped all the dimensions of the dream. It was kind of like trying to walk in first person while visualizing; really hard for some people, for some reason.

Anyways, I've examined my own normal dreams more than enough to understand how my unconscious conscious thinking in dreams affects what happens. It's how I've always avoided nightmares (unconsciously), by unconsciously deciding anything too negative isn't how the dream will actually go. That willing of dreams applies to basically anything, and you bet it'll go a thousand times better when I'm lucid and thinking stuff on purpose. Anyways, have a song.



It's funny to think I have the same suspension-of-disbelief/voluntary reality immersion in dreams as I do in real life. Despite being convinced my dreams are reality, I've somehow got a background knowing that I can influence reality itself to change during them when I'm put under pressure. Sure as heck isn't a lucid thing, but I can remember plenty of times I forced a situation to go differently than it would've, semi-consciously.

By the way, I realized there's a term for hearing random loud sounds upon waking up (or falling asleep, which must suck), Exploding Head Syndrome. I can't say the ones we've had were explosions or glass breaking, but random quick high-pitched vibratey noises and I think once someone saying something (loudly). Though luckily it's only happened a few times ever, about 75% of the time we've fallen asleep on our back, which is extremely few times. Hard to keep count now, but it's up to like 5-6?

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
01-12-2018, 11:34 PM
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Akinkinit Offline
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RE: Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Speaking as one of the lurkers of this thread, it's not so much that it's you posting the thread or necessarily what you put into it. It's mainly that your quest to hug a bunny girl (and bunny girl accomplices) is super cute and the amount of effort you put into it is inspiring.

Currently have three tulpas.
Noriko was created on December 15, 2014. Sabari was created by Noriko on January 22, 2015.
Anzu was reborn on May 23, 2016 (after being inactive since 2012).
Progress Report | Ask a Question Thread
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2018, 12:06 PM by Akinkinit.)
01-13-2018, 12:02 PM
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Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
A couple days ago, halfway through the night I noticed I woke up sleeping perfectly on my back with my hands resting neatly together on my stomach. Whaaaat? No loud noises on waking, no real dream recall (dream recall's shot), not even a particularly sore neck. But I know I slept long enough to dream. Apparently I was lying on my back to not fall asleep while trying to recall my last dream and took too long, and just... fell asleep. That's practically never happened before, especially not without any accompanying phenomena.



So one of the channels a ton of our music comes from on Youtube got shut down, which broke a ton of videos in this thread that I just went back and replaced. Since I had to skim the entire thread, I couldn't help but notice the biggest dang post in the entire thread. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-lumi...#pid194887 (up to the first post on the next page)

You don't have to read it, but you should read the posts after. And watch that video Tewi posted, the lyrics are amazingly perfect. Speaking of - those were some of the most incredibly touching posts I've read from any of my tulpas, ever.

But all of that, that was not okay. That's my Tewi, my tulpa, who went through that. I knew when I asked her for help she might not succeed and would blame herself for it, but I had no idea she would put herself through so much stress first. She practiced All Day Awareness (or at least, a modified version) for what was either two or three days straight I think - I don't know if anyone quite grasped what that means. It means that literally all day, she did not stop thinking about her wish to lucid dream and whether or not she was dreaming. According to her she had only a handful of ~3 minute periods where she forgot. It's no wonder she got so stressed out, and was even writing that she was exhausted in her posts - that's insane! And it's not like she wasn't trying hard and already stressed out before, as she was driven to it as an "ultimatum". And the most upsetting part, after failing her ultimatum and everything else she had tried, she attempted to use her exhausted state to emulate a dreamlike state, as a last ditch effort to influence her dreams.

Writing that last part made me feel physically sick for a moment. I feel like I've failed her, especially for not realizing the extent of what she went through for me in the first place. I might've written something about it somewhere, but I obviously didn't actually read back through her posts at the time. And she didn't even plan on stopping, either. Lucilyn convinced her to switch "during the day" so she could play games, and then didn't switch back. She convinced Tewi to take a break because she would be able to do what Tewi planned on doing just as well or better.

I mean, what more is there to say? That makes me sick, I'm upset. Aside from that.. The Pendulum song was nonetheless a nice touch, lyrics and all. Except she went on to call herself stupid and short-sighted in that post. Otherwise, other posts,

(07-31-2017, 11:19 AM)Lucilyn Wrote: I just (the second post here) https://community.tulpa.info/thread-i-ha...-animation watched 20 minutes of Game Grumps animated/the animated's song, then watched 33 minutes of them playing P.T. which is a horror game (at 4:30AM lol), and then listened to a super great nice Game Grumps remix to end the night. It's so perfect. Like I said there I just have this feeling that the end to my day was perfect! Way better than that time Lumi was doing the Touhou thing or something the night before, I remember I said I envied that. Envy this future us, this was a good night!

Acknowledged and envied, that sounds like it was a great time. I'm envious, but for real though. I've been watching the Game Grumps for years and they're some of my favorite people, so a night like that sounds pretty awesome. Also, her play of Moonbound (on a difficulty named Luminescence no less..) was very impressive, there's literally no way I can beat that score. Since I couldn't finish the song last time I played, I'm out of practice and don't plan on getting back in.


(09-18-2017, 05:18 AM)Lucilyn Wrote: oo almost a whole week without posting here, 1 hour off. Idk what we're doing lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is the realest post in the thread. After Tewi's giant "assessment" post I linked anyways.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2018, 09:51 PM by Luminesce.)
01-16-2018, 07:49 AM
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Luminesce Offline
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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon
Almost two weeks, oops. I'm caught between not reporting boring stretches of time of doing the same old thing, and not not posting for weeks at a time. Well, I've just been attempting dream recall improvement, though I suck at dedication and such I guess so I'm barely making progress. I'm 50/50 remembering dreams or not when I wake up, although until a few days ago I couldn't really recall the first half or so of the dreams I had, and now it's another 50/50 as to whether I remember a large chunk of the dream or just the last "scene". It's annoying how brick-wall it is, not a sliding scale but giant chunks. Remember no dream/remember the last portion of a dream/remember basically the whole thing, those are my options, and I don't get to choose. But anyways, I'm still working on it, but certainly not at a pace that's going to make any significant changes any time soon. I feel bad about that, saying we could lucid dream any day now and then making basically no progress for half a month. I'm used to it, but disappointing you guys is like disappointing my tulpas all over again. It bothers me... but I'm out of words to say, pleas to bargain with the universe/my brain for, motivation to try specifically hard for short periods of time (just me though, the others can still do that).

I have been spending time with them a little more consistently lately, though. I just wish I had something to do with Reisen. Lucilyn and I play games, I talk to Tewi for advice, I just spend time with Flan because that's what she wants (specifically - obviously I want to spend time with them all, and I do to some extent just talking/etc.). But there's no real situation that comes up that makes me think, I should involve Reisen in this, or something like that.

I'm a really good tulpamancer when it comes to giving advice, but my lack of motivation sure does stop me from following my own good ideas I suggest to others. I can literally write a post to myself about how best to deal with my issues, and it sounds great, but it doesn't play out like that. Spend time with one of your tulpas every day, switch often (preferably multiple times a day), do wonderland and/or imposition sessions with them all every full moon. But it turns into just talking to one or two of them a little bit every day, not switching until I give up with my lucid dreaming attempts for a while or something, and just imposing them all before I go to bed on a full moon. It's really terrible. I'd say I'm really terrible, but I know this affects them when they're fronting too, but I guess they're all better at fighting it for their own reasons. You would think my love for them would motivate me more like it does for Tewi or something..

Though for all I know, and my best guess is, it does motivate me to do practically all the things I do, and without that motivation I'd do nothing at all. So I try not to be too hard on myself.


I've fallen (back) asleep on my back two more times since that post, I think both times because I was trying to recall dreams in the middle of the night. Naturally if I was tired enough to do that I also don't remember the time very well. But waking up afterward on my back (you know, like ~45 minutes later as I do throughout the night) doesn't seem to be affecting dream recall/vividness at all. I kind of thought it would for whatever reason. Anyways one time was like 11 days ago and the other was like 2 days ago. I don't see much benefit to when it happens, and it's slightly uncomfortable for my head I guess? But if it really starts becoming a common thing (three times out of the 100+ chances this year it could've happened? sounds common to me) that would be nice, as it'd let me wear the REM-Dreamer in the most reliable position. Too bad it's basically impossible to predict happening, and turning on and putting on the REM-Dreamer wakes me up too much to fall back asleep still. So I haven't even been trying to wear it.

Also my schedule's been trash for like two weeks now. As of yesterday I'm waking up at 5AM again, and I intend to keep it this way. Really all that means is ending any gaming sessions with friends early, which sucks and all, but it's for lucid dreaming... My brain is just incapable of considering things a big deal I guess.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
01-29-2018, 02:10 PM
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Lucilyn Offline
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Lucilyn's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Fun
Whew, sleeping for 14 hours is a doozy! On purpose of course, to remember lots of dreams, and lots of dreams did I have! From a vaguely-maliciously glitchy Pokemon game to a mix of the Simpsons and King of the Hill, that was a crazy ride!

So, at first we were just shunning our poor friend who has a life (ie job and stuff so can't play games often) who got home right as we went to bed right after a few of us started playing Guild Wars 2, but Lumi decided after a bit if this was going to be a consistent thing and we were only focusing on dream recall for now there was no reason to keep the early waking up schedule. So for.. the last like sevenish days I've been focusing on that instead. I mean I think it's going well, sometimes when I can't quite remember a dream or part of it, trying hard to remember actually works where it usually doesn't, so that's good!

{This paragraph ain't relevant lol}I checked up on Erin and Steve Pavlina's sites yesterday because they were super helpful to Lumi a lotta years ago and we like to see what they're up to every few months or so, and I read an article from one of them about making your dreams come true cus I was like oh that's relevant. Except it was about, you know, dream-lifestyles, but I took the advice like it was for dreams anyway. So someone was basically waiting seven years with a meh job trying to get enough money to start doing their thing (they thought they wanted to run a large ranch with lots of horses that kids could come to play at) but couldn't do it, asked Erin what to do (it was Erin's article then lol), and she said she was limiting herself by how she wanted to go about it. So the girl ended up finding a couple of partners already doing horse stuff and they ended up going around schools and stuff doing like, things about how cool horses were or something, because it turned out the girl's dream was sharing her love of horses with kids (who are just generally more fun to share FUN with, obviously) so they could possibly end up with a love for them like her. So, without spending a ton of money she ended up living her dream! Something like that

Anyways, that wasn't relevant, but it put the idea in my head to try and rethink through what we wanted and how we were doing it. Definitely still led back to wanting to lucid dream for sure, and as far as I can tell what we're doing already is fine. See wasn't that worth reading? But yeah idk to be fair what we WERE doing for the last X years obviously wasn't working, but the dream recall thing for dream vividity/connectedness seems like the right idea.

Well anyway, it does seem like maybe the way we do things isn't as uh, motivating/strict? as it needs to be. So I thought like.. the idea of maybe having a piece of paper by our bed that was set up like a calendar where we just wrote down the # of dreams we had every night. Like, filling in little boxes up to 12 or so per day as we have them? Idk just an idea we probably won't do, but I think that's the sorta thing we could use, something that keeps us a little more focused. Like, that's why Lumi made this thread, and obviously it's helped a TON! But maybe focusing even more (especially right when we wake up out of dreams) would help even more you know?

Well, I didn't really have any other specific ideas, but I'm sure Lumi and Tewi could figure something out. Lumi and Tewi because Tewi could easily think of a ton of things, but they aren't all things Lumi and the rest of us can easily stick with, so she'd have to think of something with Lumi. I'm just gonna keep having fun remembering all these dreams in the meantime!

Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas. I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written.
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
02-14-2018, 09:09 AM
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