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Moving back to Rizon
Kiah Offline
Sans giraffe
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#1
 
Moving back to Rizon
The Tulpa.info staff would like to announce that we will be moving the official Tulpa.info channels (#lounge.info, #mods.info, and #topic.info) back to the Rizon IRC network. This may come as a surprise to a lot of you, so we would like to explain all of our reasoning, below.


Why did we move to this network in the first place?

In order to properly understand why we are moving from this IRC network, you first must understand why we moved here in the first place. For those of you who don't know, the official Tulpa.info channels used to be hosted on the Rizon network. We only moved to this network, as of December 5th, 2013. We were proposed by Xena, the current network owner, to move to this new network, with the following claims:
- That the different tulpa communities would become closer, and more intertwined.
- Useful features, such as +q (to mute a person, without having to ban them)
- Account-based bans
- Other neat features, such as registering on Tulpa.info forums automatically registering you an account on the IRC
- The ability to better deal with trolls, as all Tulpa.info moderators would be given network operator status, to deal with ban-evasion, and so forth.


What this network was "supposed" to be

As I somewhat alluded to in my last two points, the original plan (what we were told) for this network was for it to be a Tulpa.info IRC network. This was the intent, but as you can clearly see, this is not the case. This current network, and Tulpa.info are two entirely separate entities. If we had known this would be the case, we would have likely never moved here.
Here are some quotes from Pleeb, who is—for those of you who don't know—the creator of Tulpa.info, from a discussion of the prospects of moving away from this network:

"It's like I said before we ever switched; this was supposed to be a tulpa.info network; it was meant for our community like how dreamviews has one."
"It was shortly after the move that Quora annexed the network, split it as "being seperate from tulpa.info" and Quora was established as being in charge of it all."
"I remember when that whole "coup" happened, when Quora essentially annexed the IRC community, made their own split, and I was told "Too bad." when I said "This isn't what I was told we would be doing.""


Why have we decided to leave this network, now?

When we first considered the idea of moving our channels back to Rizon, we considered the benefits of staying. What does this network offer us? Naturally, those benefits should still today be the very same that they were when we were first enticed to move. However, most of what we were promised has not held up.
- The mode +q, to allow us to mute users, instead of banning them, is not directly supported on Rizon, but in the past, the Tulpa.info staff has used a workaround of sorts to achieve the very same effect. However, this method only served to annoy and frustrate our users. It provided no practical benefit for us. In light of this, the Tulpa.info staff has actually decided to not use +q on its users. Most of them seem to prefer a ban.
- No such dual account registering between IRC and forums has been set up.
- Account based bans do not work. This important feature we were promised simply does not work on this network.
- Only two members of the Tulpa.info staff were made network operators, and one of them has left the network. This leaves us with one, who is very busy, and can therefor not often help with ban-evaders. This means that we have to go to the network help channel, like we would on Rizon.

With that considered, we see that that which we were promised and convinced with does not hold any benefits for us, here.

The next thing to consider is what Rizon has to offer us, over the current network.
- Rizon has proven to be more stable than this network. Users are disconnected considerably more often from this network than we have experienced on Rizon. Rizon is also much faster to connect to, from our experience.
- Our current network has a "single point of failure". This means that if something were to happen to the current owner, or their servers, the network would be rendered inoperable. Rizon is fully capable of surviving staff and server loss.
- Ever since we moved here, we have suffered from rather considerable activity loss. This is partly due to the fact that the community was split, but Rizon also had the benefit of having random Rizon users stumble across our channels. This made for some interesting discussion, from time to time, and introduced some new members to our community. Furthermore, when we move back to Rizon, we will be rejoining some of the users who did not want to join us in the move.


The irc.tulpa.im network operators

First of all, I would like to say that we would have preferred to keep this explanation completely non-personal, but there are simply some very important matters concerning our stay here, that we think you all deserve to know. With that said, we have no hostile intent, and do not intend to defame or insult anyone who played a role in our decision to move back.

I have heard it stated that the Tulpa.info staff has an undue bias against Xena, and perhaps, by extension, the rest of the network operators. I would like to lay this claim to rest, once and for all.
Xena was, until a little over 6 months ago, a member of the Tulpa.info staff, and had been for well over a year, at that point. Between Xena and his tulpas, they had been stripped of their moderation power at least four times, due to power abuse. This includes incidents from punishing users for disagreeing or arguing with them, using their moderation powers to favor some users over others, to banning users without any warning. These are only some of the problems we have had, during their time as a moderator. On September 21st, 2014, after much discussion from the Tulpa.info staff, Xena was voted to be removed, unanimously.
We do not hold any personal grudge against Xena or any member of the Tulpa.im staff. It simply makes us a bit uncomfortable to have a user who was removed from our staff for such offenses, as the owner of the IRC network on which we are hosted. I hope you can understand that.

Between the Tulpa.info, and the Tulpa.im staff, there is also a conflict of interests, and beliefs. From what we have seen, the Tulpa.im staff holds many "metaphysical", or "magical" views, and incorporates them into their practice, and discussion of tulpas. There is nothing wrong with them believing as they do, but we have seen how—due to their status as network operators—their beliefs have begun to spread across our userbase. These types of views are not generally accepted among our staff, or a large majority of our community. Tulpa.info strives for a more scientific stance and view on the tulpa phenomenon. These views simply do not mix with ours, and we believe that separating ourselves from those beliefs would be better for our community as a whole, considering or goal.


What happens now?

As soon as this announcement is posted, #tulpa.info, and all associated channels will be re-opened for discussion on irc.rizon.net. The new channel #tulpa.lounge has been created to replace the former #tulpa_ot, and will function the same as the current #lounge.info. #tulpa.mods will remain the #mods.info equivalent on Rizon. #tulpa.NSFW has been created as an unofficial channel for our community to discuss all things NSFW. We hope for it to have the same function as the current #NSFW channel.
The chat link on Tulpa.info will be updated to automatically redirect users who do not have dedicated IRC clients. For those of you who do, simply connect to irc.rizon.net, and join any of the aforementioned channels.
There will be a bot in place that will proxy all messages between irc.tulpa.im, and its equivalent channels on irc.rizon.net, for a couple of weeks or so, to help make the transition back to Rizon smoother. After that, on May 18th, the Tulpa.info channels on irc.tulpa.im will be closed, and you will no longer be able to talk in them.

We apologize for the inconveniences associated with moving IRC networks again, but we believe that this will ultimately prove to be best for our community, so we hope you understand.

Thank you all for your time.

"If this can be avoided, it should. If it can't, then it would be better if it could be. If it happened and you're thinking back to it, try and think back further. Try not to avoid it with your mind. If any of this is possible, it may be helpful. If not, it won't be."
05-04-2015, 05:12 AM
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Kirito Offline
Kirigaya Kazuto
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#2
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
I agree with all the points above
not from a personal point of view, because I haven't been personally affected by any of them.

But after reading through the reasons, I agree with the decision and like that tulpa.info staff actually does things to support and benefit their community, I wish I never had the 17 month gap in being active here.

“Eragon looked back at him, confused. "I don't understand."
"Of course you don't," said Brom impatiently. "That's why I'm teaching you and not the other way around.”
05-04-2015, 05:38 AM
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Sands Offline
And Roswell
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#3
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
I'm not sure if the IRC community can be salvaged, but this is definitely a step in the right direction. It also shows us that the staff in charge actually listens and does what is best for the community instead of just not doing anything because it's "easier". Big and hard decisions have to be made sometimes and mistakes have to be owned up to. Good job here, guys.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
05-04-2015, 12:57 PM
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Kirito Offline
Kirigaya Kazuto
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#4
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
If I may, I thought of another benefit of moving the IRC.

The previous network, the non-Rizon one, with the owner being a member of staff it was, I assume incredibly hard to not keep business dealings from getting personal, which nine times out of ten ends badly, as I personally saw last night in the IRC, a few people being offended by something that went out of its way to not be offending, because of the level of personal interaction there was. Whereas I assume with Rizon, everything is just business.

I may be wrong but I'm just giving my thoughts.

“Eragon looked back at him, confused. "I don't understand."
"Of course you don't," said Brom impatiently. "That's why I'm teaching you and not the other way around.”
05-04-2015, 04:24 PM
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Sky and Vinyl Offline
Vinyl is best tupper
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#5
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
This is just stupid. So now we will have to recreate any new channels back over on Rizon. You forget what it did to the IRC community. Many REFUSED to switch over to the new server, cutting the membership by a more severe amount! And now you wish for us to be switched back? You are going to cause a further loss for the IRC community. It does not really fix anything other than cleaning your hands of any problems. From a users standpoint it is a major inconvenience and should be done away with. Users should not be put thru this and honestly I think it is extremely stupid. Regardless of the reasons.

-Sky, Dash, Vinyl, and Spitfire
05-05-2015, 12:39 AM
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Luminesce Offline
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#6
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
(05-05-2015, 12:39 AM)Sky an Vinyl Wrote: From a users standpoint it is a major inconvenience

I mean, I've only been on the IRC for a few days, but for me all that meant was changing my bookmark from irc.tulpa.info to irc.rizon.net. Been on the IRC just fine since this thread was posted. Maybe there's some advanced IRC stuff I'm missing here, but it was the opposite of a problem for me.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2017, 10:06 PM by Pleeb. Edit Reason: Changing username in quote )
05-05-2015, 01:32 AM
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Linkzelda Offline
>MFW Image Streaming
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#7
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
The part that seems a bit self-defeating is the usual conflation with metaphysical and "magical," and the idea of fostering a mentality where the forum would try to fixate in utilizing scientific standpoints, and even philosophy when trying to conceptualize and theorize the tulpa phenomenon.

But if there's no encouragement in diving into ontology, i.e., the nature of what exists (which would entail metaphysical standpoints (e.g. materialism, dualism, physicalism, etc.)) along with the blending of epistemology, i.e., knowledge, and how we come to terms in conceptualizing a knowable world, universe, etc., then this entails that any discussion that may utilize scientific standpoints to theorize on tulpas would essentially be devoid of any merit of discussion.

All those discussions with people who give presumptions on tulpas (e.g. physical processes in the brain generating some kind of byproduct, or just any implications of dualism) is suddenly thrown out of the question simply because there's a knee-jerk disposition to conflate metaphysics as only something of "magical" connotations., or having an equivalent merit as such. So either maybe there's a clarification that needs to be addressed, or if one isn't needed, then any scientific associations will be nothing than ashes, because ultimately, we're stripping away any practices with trying to conceptualize just about anything pertaining to tulpas, and the nature of their existence and implied attributes (e.g. sentience).

I never wanted to presume this is some grandiose troll attempt, or just dogmatism so far up there that forgets to reconcile rudiments utilized to even discuss about the nature of anything, even when said discussions are done as idea play and for the sake of getting ideas rolling. It creates an impasse, and it's just furthering that unpopular opinions analogue that spreads indirectly throughout the forum, and other communities as well.

It just makes things more tedious in encroaching any kind of philosophy of science, i.e., pragmatic ways on how science can be done, and the philosophical rudiments implied or even deemed necessary based on circumstances for it to have any sustenance. And not just only science, just any other form of philosophy, I guess.

As for the IRC part, that's not really something that gives me moments of consternation. It's just that when rules that may contradict the ulterior motive (e.g. "For Science") set for the IRC occurs, it's bound to happen with the forum in some way.


(This post was last modified: 05-05-2015, 01:52 AM by Linkzelda.)
05-05-2015, 01:34 AM
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Kirito Offline
Kirigaya Kazuto
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#8
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
Metaphysics and science are not able to be combined*, theorizing about brain processes and the such is in no way metaphysics, its a theory based on scientific data.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, not science.


*And actually get anywhere with either of them

“Eragon looked back at him, confused. "I don't understand."
"Of course you don't," said Brom impatiently. "That's why I'm teaching you and not the other way around.”
05-05-2015, 02:03 AM
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Linkzelda Offline
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#9
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
(05-05-2015, 02:03 AM)Shi Wrote: Metaphysics and science are not able to be combined*, theorizing about brain processes and the such is in no way metaphysics, its a theory based on scientific data.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, not science.


*And actually get anywhere with either of them

So in no probable way that when one theorizes about brain processes, and how said processes would correlate with this reality, e.g., causation, would not entail metaphysical stances whatsoever along with epistemology. And because it's a theory based on scientific data, then the scientific data cannot reconcile itself with the theories (which may have philosophical implications).

Which implies that if the theories are based on scientific data, and cannot be intertwined in anyway, as you stated, then it seems contradicting to profess that the theories (e.g. brain processes) are based on scientific data when it can't be the other way around, ergo, reconciling in some way. So for someone who may utilize physicalism in theorizing tulpas for example, the fact that it's (physicalism) a philosophical view pertaining to monism, would not entail any kind of metaphysical stance, alright then.

And if this presumption encroaches other brances of Science that have no philosophical underpinnings (which I find peculiar), then any ulterior motive behind philosophy of Science, and other brances of philosophy that may supplement with it has no merit. If that's the case, along with the defeatist notion of nothing bearing any fruit in any future discussions, then alright.

If it's a concern over worrying about a group of people garnering metaphysical, epistemological, and ontological views with tulpas as anyone else would to some extent, and feeling their melange of viewpoints will be the end-all be-all stance, then that's understandable. But it, IMO, raises the question on what gets overlooked (e.g. any other user that may have their own personal sets of standpoints to define what makes a tulpa, a tulpa).


(This post was last modified: 05-05-2015, 02:23 AM by Linkzelda.)
05-05-2015, 02:19 AM
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Kirito Offline
Kirigaya Kazuto
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#10
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
Until you can debate using regular language I will not participate in one with you.

I presented, and can continue to present my argument in easy to understand terms and if you will not then I see no reason to continue. A valid argument is measured in points and the validity of said points, not who can use more big words.

Science and philosophy are different, this is a fact. Science and metaphysics are different, this is also a fact, they cannot be combined. Science seeks to explain something through scientific trials, experiments, provable data and eventually reach a conclusion that is universal. Metaphysics seeks to answer vague, subjective questions as broadly as they can.

“Eragon looked back at him, confused. "I don't understand."
"Of course you don't," said Brom impatiently. "That's why I'm teaching you and not the other way around.”
05-05-2015, 03:28 AM
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