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Moving back to Rizon
FallFamily Offline
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#21
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
Hail:

OK, so most of the reasons given, I can be on board on. Tulpa.im not providing the extra features originally desired and one not proving to be that useful anways - that makes sense. Disagreements and strife between staff on Tulpa.info and Tulpa.im - that makes sense. As Shi put it, having the IRC be on a person in the community's servers opens up the possibilities for messes that are personal, while having it on Rizon means that if there is a problem, it is just business. In fact, that is a pretty good reason in and of itself. I've watched some of the things go down and I can completely see splitting the two communities because of it.

But, I have a massive problem with the idea of moving back to Rizon because the people on Tulpa.im including staff hold to more metaphysical views than here. For those reading, I am using the definition of "metaphysical" used by most people in this community, not the one used in academic circles that Linkzelda is using (note, the academic one is super fun and interesting to talk about and I just love being a physical scientist myself).

Mind you, I come at tulpamancy from a very neurological and psychological angle. Yet, I have great misgivings about pushing people who take other angles and interpret their experiences differently away.

Though, I think I do understand where the reasoning is coming from. The idea is that highly visible metaphysical views in the Tulpa.info community (which is what most people find when they stumble upon tulpamancy) will somehow delegitimize tulpamancy and tulpas - that the community will not be taken seriously. This has an eerie similarity to respectability politics that goes on in various marginalized groups. The idea is that someone finds out about us and then we can say "we are a little different but we are totally sane, not like those other folks who believe in that crazy metaphysical stuff" or even hiding them from existence altogether.

Here is the thing, much of the general population and most of the psychology and psychiatry community think we are nuts no matter what face we put forward (and personally, the metaphysical folks are no more nuts than the psychological folks). For one, they aren't the ones stumbling into us. We stumble into them and have to deal with them face to face, not on the internet. So the face we put on here doesn't matter. Now, media finding tulpamancy is a bit different since they will find here. But, they are informed by those same views and they will find the metaphysical stuff quite quickly if they put even 10 minutes into it and they will notice that this community has tried to hide it. Better to stick together, frankly, and argue back that how one views their experiences should not matter - our sanity should be judged on our function, now how we view ourselves. This just feels way too much like the LGB's pushing away the T's because trans people are viewed way more negatively by society.

Why do the different camps have to be so at odds. They aren't natural enemies. So what if most tulpamancers thought that it worked by metaphysical means. That was kind of the way it used to be. This doesn't stop those who are more psychologically and neurologically inclined from trying to figure out how things work. Scientists continue to try to figure out the world regardless of whether people think about the roles of deities. Also, there is truly overlap between the camps. Just as their are scientists who are religious, there are hosts and tulpas who think they operate psychologically but are open to the idea of metaphysical workings for others. Also, some people have mixed views with regards to themselves. There are a few ways to work it actually. It is a very high bar to disprove all metaphysical explanations. Might be trivial to disprove any one, but to disprove them all would actually require infinite knowledge. One can instead take the heuristic that they aren't correct, but that is just it, a heuristic.

More on the camps not having to be at odds. The wider plurality community has already been dealing with this for decades. Frankly, the views there are more diverse than here. And yes, there has been some strife. But, the plural systems from different viewpoints in their origins and operations have been able to come and stay together decently well. And frankly, the community is better and stronger because of it. Banding together has helped a lot and a lot of common ground has been found. At the end of the day, we still face the same challenges in this world, so why fight them separately and try to throw the other under the bus. I come from a neurological and psychological viewpoint, but I cannot tell you enough just how useful all the material out there written by systems from more metaphysical viewpoints has been.

We would be far better off taking a card from the wider plurality community on this issue. As I said before, the other reasons for moving back to Rizon are pretty sound. But this one in particular, I have major qualms with and worry that the idea behind it will be quite destructive to this community.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
System Name: Fall Family
Former Username: hail_fall
Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.
05-08-2015, 11:33 PM
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Kiahdaj Offline
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#22
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
I think a lot of the problem with the complaints about the metaphysical section of the announcement are due to the fact that people are misinterpreting what it implies. There were many reasons for our decision to leave—several of which we did leave out, in interest of not causing drama, or being entirely unprofessional. This difference in views is simply one of the several; we would have left whether we had that problem or not.

Another thing to note is that there has not been, nor is there any intent to change our policy on metaphysics. Our community as a whole still does not typically accept these ideas, and we still intend to push for a scientific, and psychological approach to the phenomenon. We have not accepted metaphysical discussion in the regular boards for years now, though we do have a section specifically for metaphysics.
Nothing has or is likely to change in regards to how we deal with metaphysical beliefs around here, so that section of the announcement was purely to explain part of our thoughts regarding the decision to move.

"If this can be avoided, it should. If it can't, then it would be better if it could be. If it happened and you're thinking back to it, try and think back further. Try not to avoid it with your mind. If any of this is possible, it may be helpful. If not, it won't be."
05-08-2015, 11:52 PM
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Linkzelda Offline
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#23
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
FallFamily Wrote:But, I have a massive problem with the idea of moving back to Rizon because the people on Tulpa.im including staff hold to more metaphysical views than here. For those reading, I am using the definition of "metaphysical" used by most people in this community, not the one used in academic circles that Linkzelda is using (note, the academic one is super fun and interesting to talk about and I just love being a physical scientist myself).

Honestly, somehow the application of the word “metaphysical” in this forum ends up being an umbrella term for third-eye chakras, voodoo magic, mysticism, and such. As for the semantics contingent on academic pursuits, or endeavors pertaining to Science, I figured that if there’s a yearning for encroaching a scientific framework, others would’ve been made privy to things like ontology and epistemology.

Like for ontology, i.e., theorizing the nature of being, and analogues for that pertaining to tulpa:

- What is a tulpa?
- What is the meaning behind the existence of a tulpa?
- How much qualia, and other attributes of sentience is presumed towards a tulpa?
- Any thread questioning consciousness and other theories of mind pertaining to tulpa

And maybe encroaching epistemology on how we would apply knowledge into hopefully reconciling with those queries, especially if ontology would be a branch of metaphysics itself. So if the “metaphysics” utilized in academic circles and what have you isn’t something to be reconciled with, I’m not sure what kind of other scientific framework is explicitly stated here other than the buzzwords of psychological approaches that seem to be infantile and vague.

It’s either the framework is kept locked and is contingent on people trying to be the consensus on what the community frowns/supports on, then it’s probably just appeal to the populace, i.e., because so many people are presumed to believe it so, it is so; doesn’t seem to have any shred of idea playing with tools utilized in scientific pursuits and inquiries. That’s the only part that seems to baffle me, but if there's a dichotomy behind the word "metaphysics," then it would be nice to see an actual type of metaphysics that is somehow absolved from any other branches of it, which seems futile at best.


(This post was last modified: 05-09-2015, 04:49 AM by Linkzelda.)
05-09-2015, 04:40 AM
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FallFamily Offline
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#24
 
RE: Moving back to Rizon
Hail:

I'm completely with you on that. This community's definition of metaphysical is a distortion of the meaning you point out. Metaphysics has a major place in science. In fact, in some ways, you can't escape it and any attempt to do so is fraught in great error.

I mean, take Bell's Inequality which has been a very important thing in physics. That involved a lot of metaphysics yet is tied to our physical world in a very significant and insightful way.

All heuristics are essentially metaphysics. And we can't escape heuristics. One has to choose one's base assumptions/axioms. There is just no escaping it and one can't prove them without resorting to circular reasoning. We just choose them using heuristics.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
System Name: Fall Family
Former Username: hail_fall
Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.
05-09-2015, 07:07 AM
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