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[Personality] Planting a Tulpa Seed and How to Listen to It
Ayre Offline
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#11
 
RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
Sock, Thank you for your input. Flaws in my opinion are important. It may be a bit of a shortcut, but I feel like it strengthens the foundation and can make them even more different thank the host. I have added a section to the guide explaining that the personality you are creating is just a starting point and will grow from there. I'm not sure if your statement was made before or after the latest additions I've made. Finally, this isn't a guide saying to puppet your tulpa all the time. It's a guide saying not to worry if you are puppeting. You don't actually force them to say anything, that is the difference with my way and puppeting.

J.Iscariot, I cannot write a guide that works for everyone. I'm writing about what I know, and what I have seen. If I tried to write about a method that I have not done, or had experience with it would help no one. If this guide does not work for someone, then there is nothing I can do about that. Other methods did not work for me, it wasn't the guide's fault. Also, I never meant to imply that tulpas should not be considered people. My views on what I think they are, is a point for another thread.

Groovy, don't let anyone tell you what you do or do not have. You're just as valid as any other tulpa.
02-28-2016, 07:41 PM
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Glitterbutt Offline
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#12
 
RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
(02-28-2016, 07:41 PM)Ayre Wrote: Groovy, don't let anyone tell you what you do or do not have. You're just as valid as any other tulpa.

I gotta leave for a while. We are getting the Mistgod-Melian crazies again. We need a lot of time to calm down and sort it out. Ayre, you keep writing wonderful stuff on the forum my friend. I do like the guide a lot. Thanks AGGuy for the PM that knocked my head.

Thanks mods for deleting my useless stuff on this thread.
02-28-2016, 07:49 PM
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J.Iscariot Offline
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#13
 
RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
"J.Iscariot, I cannot write a guide that works for everyone. I'm writing about what I know, and what I have seen. If I tried to write about a method that I have not done, or had experience with it would help no one. If this guide does not work for someone, then there is nothing I can do about that. Other methods did not work for me, it wasn't the guide's fault. Also, I never meant to imply that tulpas should not be considered people. My views on what I think they are, is a point for another thread. "

That, I understand. Even then, if we had to bring together the people who parroted and it worked out for them just fine, we'd go towards other communities and types of thoughtforms (soulbonding systems headmates etc etc), which is fine if we want to widen the spectrum of the tulpa phenomenon online, but that's not up to me. With that being said, thing is that you write a guide, and a beginner reads it. If they try it out and it doesn't work, with your guide being the only thing related to parroting aside from Fede's method (the thread itself isn't bumped, I talked to Fede a few times, he's a smart guy but not in tulpamancy), you're kind of responsible for them losing out on a while of efforts. Not trying to play any guilt cards here, of course, but if parroting doesn't work and your method is the only thing put 'in motion', then that poses a problem. There is a very large success rate for FAQ and Irish_ methods, I know people who tried out parroting and ended up abandoning (and I found even worse displays of tulpamancy that I won't discuss because censor censor drama), it's just not a very accepted technique. I didn't write my post with the thought 'oh i am going to show them how good of a tulpamancer i am, yay all against parroting', if people want to parrot that's their own thing really, they can do what they want, but with what I said regarding the success rate, and the difficulties one would face in identifying whether it truly is their tulpa or just them fooling themselves (and there have been such cases due to parroting, my bias against it comes from the fact that I know it's not my tulpa and that in my own case it would be self-deception, people have serious, serious issues with doubt in this community), it would be and excuse the term shitty overall if it really came into motion, not for me or for the sake of me being a good tulpamancer or coming off as an elitist.

Tell me, out of curiosity, why should I follow your guide and not FAQ's guide or any other guide? Of course this isn't related to anything on-topic, it's just something intriguing to me, because the other methods look more promising. To any outsider, your guide could come off as straight up self-deception with due respect, I apologize if I came off as a dick, that's an issue I'm trying to work on.
02-28-2016, 07:58 PM
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Ayre Offline
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#14
 
RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
J.Iscariot, I'll PM you and we can talk there.

This guide is supposed to just be about personality how I got over thinking that I was parroting and my own doubts, not necessarily the full creation of a tulpa. It's supplemental, and that's all I wanted it to be. I might state this explicitly at the start of the guide.
02-28-2016, 08:08 PM
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J.Iscariot Offline
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#15
 
RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
Sure thing

I'm not GAT or anything so in the end the approval of your guide relies on their general vote or something if I got this correctly, what I posted was just my own opinion over stuff. Excuse me if I don't reply to your PM today because I'm pretty busy and stuff
(This post was last modified: 02-28-2016, 08:10 PM by J.Iscariot.)
02-28-2016, 08:09 PM
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Sands Offline
And Roswell
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#16
 
Default  RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
I see nothing that's really wrong with this method, you do make a note that personality isn't necessary even if it's the most important step in your eyes, so that's pretty much the biggest issue out of the way. This is for those who do want to focus on personality. I am a bit worried about all the off-site links that have some useful information, but I don't think we can really ask you to go and write something about them yourself as it's an entirely different beast to go writing about what makes a good character compared to like, some tulpa-making guide.

The part about parroting confuses me slightly. I read that what you do here is parroting and puppeting, but you say that it isn't that in your guide. Is this you trying to tell people that parroting isn't parroting so they stop worrying about it, or did I miss something? While it can be a good idea to try to fool others into thinking one way so they don't doubt all that much, I suggest against it as it all falls apart when they do question it.

I guess you're saying "don't worry about it", but you might want to be a bit more clear about it. This is a parroting guide as far as I know, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a method. But I think you shouldn't try to hide it.

Brings me to the last point in the contact section about parroting and such: saying everything is your tulpa. This is probably one of the biggest tulpa-killers, because it creates a doubt spiral after they stop blindly believing and start questioning everything. By then the "proof" they require is so much that it's impossible to get, so it's extremely hard to recover. I know, for many of us, it's as simple as accepting that something might not be us and then in the end we feel so stupid that we ever doubted those things that clearly weren't us. But for newcomers, this isn't the best idea. It really is a journey and by trying to skip right to the end, you lose the foundation that was required to realize what you should believe in.


Kind of off-topic but I want to make a note about the flaws too! When it comes to your guide, I don't think the flaw section is bad: it makes a note of how it's not necessary to intentionally create them and everyone has them whether they want them or not. But I'll say that a well-rounded character has flaws, yes. A character that is flawless is boring and unrealistic. But a well-rounded person is probably someone who tries to get over their major flaws, because there is no person who doesn't have any flaws.

Should go without saying that there is no tulpa who is flawless.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
03-06-2016, 10:52 PM
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Ayre Offline
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#17
 
RE: A comprehensive guide to personality that touches on first contact with a tulpa
(03-06-2016, 10:52 PM)Sands Wrote: You do make a note that personality isn't necessary even if it's the most important step in your eyes, so that's pretty much the biggest issue out of the way.

To me it is the most important, but I did want people to know that others in this community may not think that way. I guess the point of saying it was to inform new people of the other side of thinking as well as reiterating the subjectivity of my guide and guides in general. (EDIT: I rewrote most of the foreword to better reflect this.)

(03-06-2016, 10:52 PM)Sands Wrote: I am a bit worried about all the off-site links that have some useful information, but I don't think we can really ask you to go and write something about them yourself as it's an entirely different beast to go writing about what makes a good character compared to like, some tulpa-making guide.

My rational here is that the early stages of creating another consciousness starts, in essence, with just making a fictional character. It then forms more depth and automation on its own until it finally becomes a true tulpa. This rational comes from the side of writers and role players that end up forming a tulpa by accident. (EDIT: I have now stated this more clearly and expand upon it throughout the guide.)

(03-06-2016, 10:52 PM)Sands Wrote: The part about parroting confuses me slightly. I read that what you do here is parroting and puppeting, but you say that it isn't that in your guide.


Well, this is something that I've had a hard time communicating throughout my drafts. I'll attempt it here. See, you are not actively and forcefully controlling what your tulpa says, which is the difference (to me) of parroting and not parroting. You are sensing the intent of your tulpa and the personality that you have been cultivating. You are talking to your tulpa and waiting for a response. But, I'm attempting to take this a step deeper and trying to explain what I think is happening when the tulpa responds (in the early stages) if you have done extensive personality forcing (which I did in my tulpa's creation). When a new tulpa responds, all it knows (and all you know about it) is the identity you have given it. I think that if new people understand this early on that it may help in actually hearing the tulpa when it does speak (and not just writing it off as I did for months) at the start. I think that when you begin, your preconceived notions about your tulpa is your tulpa. And that is how you begin to actually understand who and what you have created. (EDIT: I have now included this explanation into the guide.)

(03-06-2016, 10:52 PM)Sands Wrote: [S]aying everything is your tulpa. This is probably one of the biggest tulpa-killers, because it creates a doubt spiral after they stop blindly believing and start questioning everything.

Is there anything further reading on this, or examples that you can link me? I would love to read more on this understanding as this seemed to be conventional knowledge, for the most part, when I was a part of the community about a year ago. Things may have changed, and conventions may have changed. I would love to bridge this gap if i can.

(03-06-2016, 10:52 PM)Sands Wrote: It really is a journey and by trying to skip right to the end, you lose the foundation that was required to realize what you should believe in.

I guess I am trying to impart the knowledge that I have gained from my own experiences, and trying to help new people avoid the pitfalls I have fallen into. Maybe those pitfalls are part of the learning experience, but I see no real harm in telling people what has worked for me. I don't think that simply reading this will let people skip to the end, but maybe they will consider what my own experiences has taught me.

(03-06-2016, 10:52 PM)Sands Wrote: Kind of off-topic but I want to make a note about the flaws too! When it comes to your guide, I don't think the flaw section is bad: it makes a note of how it's not necessary to intentionally create them and everyone has them whether they want them or not. But I'll say that a well-rounded character has flaws, yes. A character that is flawless is boring and unrealistic. But a well-rounded person is probably someone who tries to get over their major flaws, because there is no person who doesn't have any flaws.

Should go without saying that there is no tulpa who is flawless.

This falls back to what I said earlier that a tulpa in the very early stages is essentially a character that the host had created. It's up to the host and the tulpa to make this character a real person.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2016, 02:22 PM by Ayre.)
03-07-2016, 04:04 AM
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Sands Offline
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#18
 
Default  RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
I think I liked the first introduction better (or well, the last one at least, I think you have made many changes!), but I think I'll have to give this one some time. I don't think you are really addressing any doubt problems though, because "just believe!" is not a proper response to doubt problems.

About the doubt and why "just believe" ended up being the thing people told others is pretty simple. In the beginning we had those crazy hour counts and you just could not have a tulpa before 100 hours had passed or something, and the first time they spoke would be totally alien and in an imposed voice. That's not the case, as we know now. But the people back in the day made their tulpas work really hard to be noticed, and some never did even if they probably had a vocal tulpa at that time. So, with more knowledge, these older hosts felt pretty stupid. If only I had believed earlier, you know?

So that's what they told people. Just believe, that's what got us here in the end. But every thought that comes into your head is not a tulpa, and some people need more time trying to figure out where the line between tulpa and not tulpa goes. This creates a lot of confusion and questions, and when there's nothing to fall back on because everything they built their foundation of a tulpa on was built on blind belief alone. All it takes is a mind that prefers proof before it believes or a person who feels cheated because the whole tulpa thing now feels like a delusion and everyone else just "believes" everything is a tulpa when it probably isn't.

I did write about a mindset here that touches up on why blind belief isn't the best way to go in maybe more detail? Thing is, this is one of the more common tulpa problems I run into, and the success rate of getting over the doubt spiral is very low compared to those who just give up because it just doesn't feel the same anymore.


Re: flaws: I know that you are kind of going for the "build a character" angle and that's fine, I guess. But if you take it to the end, you're stuck with a person with flaws anyway!

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
03-07-2016, 03:05 PM
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waffles Offline
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#19
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
I think you've addressed all the issues I had with this. With what Sands said about the doubt; maybe. I'm not sure that what's written says, "Believe everything," but maybe it's ambiguous. I don't feel strongly about it. I guess you can follow Sands' advice about it. In the meantime I'll approve.
03-07-2016, 04:08 PM
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Sock Offline
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#20
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
# The Contact and Interaction sections seem to butt heads from my view. In the Interaction section, there's an implication that the host is still making up responses consciously to a degree, based on how the figure is programmed and the expectations of the host. Contact then says that the host isn't making things up for the tulpa to say based on the figures programming and the host's expectations. Is it that between Interaction and Contact, the host stopped assuming responses? Or is it that because the figure is so defined and detailed, the responses they give are in-line with the host's expectations, even though the host isn't actually trying to think stuff for them?

# I think the issue here is that the guide is very focused on trying to mitigate unconscious puppeting fears. Reading to the Contact section makes it very clear why the proceeding steps concerning definition are so incredibly detailed: it's a fail safe. While I do think a proper viewpoint about things can help mitigate them, ultimately overcoming fears of unconscious puppeting is something the host will have to do on their own to some degree. The trouble with focussing too much on an idea to take away parroting fears is that the fears will try to shake even that. After all, some people will doubt if they even exist, or are even breathing, no idea is invincible against strong enough doubt. What's needed in this case is to develop enough mental strength to either wrestle off, ignore, or discredit the doubts, even doubting the doubts themselves may be necessary. So the host taking time to strengthen their own will power may be necessary for them to go forward, while developing their tulpa in tandem.

# I wrote a little something about my own mindset here. It's not quite as detailed and full-bodied as Sands', but it may be useful for you.

I feel you have something solid up to the Interaction and Contact sections. The previous steps look to me as a nice, solid way to build a foundation for a tulpa to be made with. It's just that the interaction bits need to be cleaned up and clarified. I'll be keeping my eye out.

Peace
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2016, 05:10 PM by Sock.)
03-07-2016, 05:07 PM
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