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[Personality] Planting a Tulpa Seed and How to Listen to It
Ayre Offline
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#21
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Changes in this draft (most likely the final draft):

1. "A. Contact" has been edited quite extensively. After thinking about it, I have actually changed my mind on this point. It does happen sometimes. Assuming you know everything about a new tulpa could hinder any deviations it is attempting to show. This was a fault that needed to be changed.

2. Added a section at the end about doubts.
03-08-2016, 02:28 AM
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Sands Offline
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#22
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Don't think I really have any other questions or things that seem like they should be changed, so it's an approval from me! If other changes happen, I'll keep an eye on them.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
03-10-2016, 02:33 PM
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Vos Offline
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#23
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Approved for Guides.
03-11-2016, 03:30 AM
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jean-luc Offline
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#24
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Alright, I've read your guide just now but not all of the replies yet. Overall, I think it's a great guide, and it's one I wish I had had when I first started tulpamancy. I can't think of anything wrong with it off the top of my head. I vote to approve.

People seem to dislike the "flaws" section, but I disagree. If the goal of a tulpamancer is to create a living, breathing(well, metaphorically) conciousness, then you cannot have perfection, because all personalities are inherently "flawed". Moreover, something that is detrimental in one situation is beneficial in another. If someone is arrogant, then they have high self-confidence. If someone is constantly happy, excited, joyful, it can get annoying at times. A purely logical (one possible interpretation of 'perfect') mind has no personality. (Star trek fans: Even vulcans have emotions, they just supress them)

Any farther than this and I'm digging into what reason anyone has for making a tulpa, and I think I'll save that for another post.

Hey, I thought of some constructive criticism!

You mention it briefly, but I think you should go into more detail: A tulpa feeds and grows on attention. To develop any tulpa the one consistent thing you always need throughout various different methods is to talk to (or somehow interact with) the tulpa, as much as possible.

(02-28-2016, 01:09 PM)waffles Wrote: Other people have mentioned 'opinions' but I think that this is factually incorrect. Tulpas do not need personality forcing to develop personalities. They do not need detailed personality forcing to develop detailed personalities. This is borne out by the experience of everyone who did anything short of a hyper-detailed personality forcing, and all those who did none at all. For that reason, I think that this guide is misleading. You don't need this stuff, so don't scare people into thinking that they do.

You don't need it, but I would strongly reccomend it. I did nearly zero personality, and Snow ended up erratic as well as partially becoming whatever form she took. To this day I regret not doing much in that field, and I would strongly reccomend it to anyone making a tulpa.

I remember thinking that I'd simply let Snow choose her traits (both form and personality). The problem here is a Catch-22, The decisions about the personality require the ability to make decisions, which requires a personality.

Now, everyone has different brains. Perhaps some people are able to have a unique personality pop up, without having to do the work described in this guide. But it certainly can't hurt, can it?

Host: Jean-luc (plain-colored text)
Tulpas: Snow & Henry
Choose your tulpas' colors here!
Click here if you'd like a changing avatar like mine!
Ain't that just fantitiliantastic!
I host a podcast called Tulpaudcast.
and ramble crazily about everything while walking on Jean-luc walking.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2016, 04:05 AM by jean-luc.)
03-11-2016, 03:41 AM
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Ayre Offline
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#25
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
I would like to thank everyone for any criticisms and approvals my guide has gained thus far.

Jean-luc, thank you for your input. It could stand to reason that elaborating on the concept of attention being the catalyst for tulpa creation could benefit new members. I had assumed that this was common knowledge, I will consider this as I want to make this a new-user friendly guide.

As far as what Waffles had said, it was for an older version of the guide that has now been reworded. I had said that it was necessary, but failed to mention that others (like you, apparently) have done well without it. I believe this has been solved in the foreword section.
03-11-2016, 04:14 AM
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jean-luc Offline
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#26
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Also as for the links, I purposefully clicked on none of them and I think the guide stands well on its own. The links add to it, but aren't required.

Host: Jean-luc (plain-colored text)
Tulpas: Snow & Henry
Choose your tulpas' colors here!
Click here if you'd like a changing avatar like mine!
Ain't that just fantitiliantastic!
I host a podcast called Tulpaudcast.
and ramble crazily about everything while walking on Jean-luc walking.
03-11-2016, 04:17 AM
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J.Iscariot Offline
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#27
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
After a somewhat lengthful conversation with OP, I was told to re-read the guide because it was possible I was misinterpreting some stuff, and here is what I think. This is just my opinion, I respect all other stances, and am not out there to set out an 'example' for what is 'real' or 'true'. You guys believe what you want, I believe what I want, and as long as nobody takes any offense in the following... that's all fine and dandy.

I would be a hypocrite if I kept this in for any longer in my own books, but in case this is accepted and publicized in a way that every single beginner reads it at least once, then that will cause a large decline in the credibility and the overall tulpamancy phenomenon, which will lead to hurt this community. What the problem is is that the more people join the forum the more mixed thoughtforms we find; all legitimate, none legitimate, that is none of my concerns. But what is of my concern is when one is mistaken for a tulpa. Not in the elitism sense that having a tulpa is all fragile and precious, something to take pride in, I regard tulpamancy as a step forward derision, but what I mean is that it's like you're giving a guide to make a daemon and labeling it as tulpamancy. It's not the fear of change either, points of view are to be respected and I've had a long conversation with you in PM already in which the end-result seemed to be something more of contradictions such as 'I am not parroting my tulpa' when the initial steps of the interpretation and interaction say just that. You are not explaining how the traits make any sense to the tulpa aside from the simple explanation of 'just because'; the tulpa would have no motive or incentive to have such traits aside from you picking them for the tulpa. Plenty of people did not write down traits or personality, and their tulpas ended up gaining traits from real-life experience on a daily basis, they grew up, just like people. My moral issue with this is that this is, with due respect, microwave tulpas. I'll be blunt and say that we're all confusing the creation of a complex intelligent being with 'assigns traits you want, assign a form you might be infatuated with at a certain point to fulfill your personal emotional agenda, and voila'. If I was an outsider, and trust me, I really really don't hold anything against OP as we did have a conversation in PM, I'd have interpreted this as me talking to myself, imagining a response until I forgot I was the one imagining them, which would very much make sense with the consistent self-doubt. One issue pile ontop of the other. I see a lot of unwarranted bias towards parroting and from my lurking back in the day people were just simply afraid of it without knowing WHY, just because 'oooh its me', but there are very clear indications that this is a method that promotes parroting. Can it be a legitimate technique of tulpamancy? Maybe. I think that the question would be to ask how many people have succeeded in the type of self-deception that parroting would make anyone think of, any outsider, that is. OP (with all the due respect and appreciation I hold for them) have specified their views over tulpamancy and regarded it as self-deception. That is completely fine, it's good to see people who aren't afraid to voice their opinions. But what is bad, in my opinion and I am no GAT so you guys can just completely ignore this, is that we're completely and utterly neglecting the negative side this specific technique could have. The main issue I see with this is the 'interaction' part. On the flaws part, no comment, whether you like it or not intelligent beings are flawed so there's no need to assign flaws, and to me, it just seems like the perfect way towards self-deception even more.

Maybe I'm wrong. Most likely. Maybe the ways changed from back, what, a few years ago, and people are deriving more into other type of thoughtforms that originate from that detachment of one's sense of identity and reality due to trauma and psychological distress. A lot could be said. I know that people are going to perceive this type of close-mindedness as elitism, and I do not care for that. I am no elitist in tulpamancy, if you guys think that it's cool to have a being in your head... I regard it as more of a very complex model of psychology. Maybe I'm the voice that shouldn't be here and keeps the hugbox from opening fully. Sorry.

All views are to be respected, I 100% agree with this considering tulpamancy can be such a subjective practice, after the community's decline to agree to a somewhat objective definition for what a tulpa is, we are unable of putting super specific criteria over tulpamancy, although there are some modes of action tulpas seem to share. I do not oppose the vision that tulpas are willful self-delusion, that is your view and I fully respect it and am alright with it. What I am not alright with is people, beginners, curious minds coming on the forum to read one guide SUPPORTED by the community saying that tulpas are delusions, AND other guides telling them otherwise. It is expected of an author to be subjective, of course, I respect that and it's natural after all, but the moment, the moment you tell outsiders that a tulpa is a delusion and when it's featured in a guide on the front page of the Guides forum/section/car/plane, it gives a very bad impression of tulpamancy. You think tulpas are a delusion, other people think otherwise, but what's the message we want to deliver to beginners? That a tulpa is whatever you want it to be? Please, for a moment, let's forget about elitism, and read this outloud: 'Is my imaginary friend from when I was 5 years old a tulpa'. Read it outloud and try to grasp what I mean here. People on reddit will claim that it's a tulpa or something that they should work on, but that's utterly bypassing everything a tulpamancer SHOULD keep in mind. Things such as reasons NOT TO MAKE A TULPA, the amount of responsibility it takes... if you put in people's heads that this is a delusion they're going to become more neglecting and lazy. Neglecting in the sense that they'll tell themselves 'oh i am progressively deluding myself it won't be bad if i drop it for a month or two, it's only a delusion after all', and lazy in the same sense approximately. That won't be the case instantly, though. It would be a step forward this type of decline in... credibility. Not how our tulpas look like, not how my tulpa looks like to others, I could not possibly care if people called me deluded and a smug elitist at this rate, but how the tulpa phenomenon actually looks like on the level of credibility.

I know that the GAT members are very valuable reviewers and from what I've seen most of the team is made of intelligent people, but they should have kept that in mind, and what I am advancing is just... food for thought.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2016, 06:55 PM by J.Iscariot.)
03-11-2016, 06:42 PM
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waffles Offline
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#28
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Judas, what you're saying is something to consider. But I don't think that the guide is as incendiary as you make it out. Here's the quote:
Quote:__How do you talk to them? How do you know it’s really them? To answer this we should first look at what I believe a tulpa to actually be. I believe that tulpas are a self-willed delusion of sorts created by the host for various reasons that become indistinguishable from a separate being over time. The actual differences between the host and the tulpa, or if a tulpa is truly a second mind is moot. That is to say that these are only debate topics, and hold no real weight on my relationship with my tulpa. She seems real to me, so I treat her as such; simple as that.

This is not just "tulpas are just delusions". The words are in there, but so are other words. I think it's actually a bit too vague and uncommitted to really get anything strong out of it, but I guess I can see why you might get what you think people would out of it. Maybe a wording change might help here: something along the lines of how it should eventually feel. In truth, if someone wants to dig around here, I don't want to be the one organising a conspiracy saying that every guide writer has to conform to the party line.

As for other things you said; do people have success with parroting methods? I think some do. Certainly this isn't the only parroting guide out there. And your argument from complexity doesn't hold, actually, because the alternatives for creation are even simpler. I mean you can render everything down to, "X, Y, and voila".
03-11-2016, 09:31 PM
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Sock Offline
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#29
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
Thanks for that thought, Iscariot.

The odd thing about the illusion issue is that, in truth, it was one of the founding ideas of the community. Many of the folks I knew who got in to it had the idea that it was an illusion that the host would accept instead of trying to break through it .

Of course, saying the seniors of the community said it doesn't make this idea true. Especially when you throw in the instances where people who say "It is an illusion" treat their creation no differently than a person who says "It is true sentience". In this, the acts of the former betray their words.

I'm going back over through the guide again and mulling over some things about it. I'll have some more stuff on the issue later.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2016, 10:55 PM by Sock.)
03-11-2016, 10:51 PM
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Ayre Offline
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#30
 
RE: Planting a tulpa seed and how to listen to it
J.Iscariot, while I respect your right to your own opinions, I have to disagree with most of what you have said. Our discussion in particular was the tipping point of me scrubbing my guide of as many person opinions about tulpas as possible. You were right about old versions, they were mostly opinion pieces, but this has changed. So let's dive into this while we are all here.

(03-11-2016, 06:42 PM)J.Iscariot Wrote: What the problem is is that the more people join the forum the more mixed thoughtforms we find; all legitimate, none legitimate, that is none of my concerns. But what is of my concern is when one is mistaken for a tulpa. Not in the elitism sense that having a tulpa is all fragile and precious, something to take pride in, I regard tulpamancy as a step forward derision, but what I mean is that it's like you're giving a guide to make a daemon and labeling it as tulpamancy.

This is by definition, Elitism. Don't kid yourself. This is how I created my own tulpa, by extension, you are calling my tulpa a daemon that is labeled as a tulpa; this is disrespectful. You have no right to create your own definitions of tulpas and force this on anyone else.

What is a tulpa?

"A tulpa is an entity created in the mind, acting independently of, and parallel to your own consciousness. They are able to think, and have their own free will, emotions, and memories. In short, a tulpa is like a sentient person living in your head, separate from you. It’s currently unproven whether or not tulpas are truly sentient, but in this community, we treat them as such. It takes time for a tulpa to develop a convincing and complex personality; as they grow older, your attention and their life experiences will shape them into a person with their own hopes, dreams and beliefs."

This is what is written on the home page of this very site. By this definition, what I have described actually fits very well. Until the home page is edited, you are completely, unequivocally wrong. let's have a refresher on what I wrote:

"I believe that tulpas are a self-willed delusion of sorts created by the host for various reasons that become indistinguishable from a separate being over time. The actual differences between the host and the tulpa, or if a tulpa is truly a second mind is moot. [...] She seems real to me, so I treat her as such; simple as that."

Is my tulpa not a real tulpa because I view her as a delusion? I feel like this is your main concern.

(03-11-2016, 06:42 PM)J.Iscariot Wrote: if you put in people's heads that this is a delusion they're going to become more neglecting and lazy.

Is this true? It hasn't been for me. I have this view and I'm not lazy. People that are neglectful and lazy are going to be so despite my views on tulpas. In fact, I advocate a high degree of work and effort in my guide.

I love that you are fixated on one sentence out of this entire guide. I clearly state my opinion as just that, my opinion. I leave this vague and unassuming on purpose. I want people to make up their own minds. By cutting out views that differ in any way we lose any real understanding and hope of progress. Should my guide be thrown out because it states a viewpoint? Is this not a place of science? Are we not free to question things?

Why is it important to deceive new people into thinking that all experienced hosts agree on pointless semantics about a purely subjective phenomenon that hasn't even been scientifically proven? You sound like a religious zealot that demands all members align to your personal views and try to silence any that oppose your preconceived notions of something that no one here fully agrees on.

I'm going to stop this rant before it gets out of hand. My guide stays how it is on these points, get over yourself.
03-12-2016, 04:37 AM
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