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[Switching] Dominant Mindvoice During Forcing
#1
[Chrome] When speaking to your Tulpa or other headmates, how does your mindvoice sound compared to theirs? Who seems to be the loudest? Do you have a mindvoice that feels "dominant", in which you feel the most active or possibly have the most energy? Do you have any headmates who appear "recessive" by tending to go quiet really easily when multiple headmates are present?

When Ranger woke me up by triggering my interest, we had a short conversation and thought it was strange he wasn't speaking to Gray. Others have noticed this as well, and we find it a little worrisome. However, recently I and various others noticed a pattern- Ranger and Gray tend to become recessive and go quiet if there are others speaking.

When I woke up Gray and continued to speak to Ranger, Gray fell quiet quickly. He reported feeling tired and low-energy. After briefly speaking to Gray, Ranger fell quiet. After closer observation, he's symbolically dozing off. Ranger also reported being sleepy and tired.

I decided I wanted to do a little test. I called for Bune and Gerodious and we observed our dynamics between the three of us, trying not to call Ranger or Gray. It started with me asking Bune questions about random things such as "What is a lizard" and then after asking Bune more questions, I shifted to Gerodious to ask him a question. We continued this briefly, but we did not do this extensively.

Bune and Gerodious reported that my mindvoice appeared to be dominant- I had an easier time going passive and was quick to respond to questions or thoughts, even if they were not mine. Despite this, Gerodious and Bune seemed to have an easier time not falling quiet, however we did not do the test for long enough to know for certain.

During our discussion, sometimes we would trigger trains of thought that Gray and sometimes Ranger would dwell on, causing the three of us to go quiet during this time. For lack of better words, Gray and Ranger are attached to the "Body OS" or are able to "day dream" where we are not able to do that.

As a result, I was able to enjoy a little bit of quiet time to myself after Bune and Gerodious left. I thought to myself, and both Gray and Ranger were not responsive. I wasn't distracted by a head full of spontaneous thoughts.

The three of us had a few ideas for why Gray and Ranger fell quiet, but we are not quite sure what the main cause is. Gray and Ranger front more often, so it's possible they are tired from fronting. Gray woke up early this morning, while a great time for forcing, is also hit or miss if Gray has the energy to force. In this case, he didn't have much energy, and apparently neither did Ranger. Between the two, it appeared that Ranger had more energy but was able to withdrawl where Gray sometimes would put everyone on hold so he can restlessly rotate in bed. Gray was directly attached to the senses including discomfort, another blessing for me but another indicator for Gray being switched-in.

In this state, I believe I am more sensitive to the front, but possibly only to anxiety? I'm lucky Ranger and Gray were not fretting over something. A little while ago, Dark Gray found himself being exposed to that anxiety while in a state similar to the one I am in now. I am currently possessing the body with a quiet mind and two unresponsive hosts. I find it ironic that I have enough energy to overpower both Gray's and Ranger's mindvoices despite the fact I don't front very often.

Has anyone else had a similar experience like this?
Spirit, Gerodious, Dark Gray, Fernardo, Jasper, Hope, Moltosha, Blue, Evergreen, Fish, Red Gray, Chrome, Bune, Exabier, Duck

Gray/Cat_ShadowGriffin- Host, Ranger- basically Host
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#2
It sounds like you switched in. Congratulations!

In terms lf dominance, if you hold front, you can certainly block out anyone else. If you can hold on to that feeling of them being unresponsive, you can hold them there even through trigger events that they would normally wake up for.

Now take it a step further and drift them off to dormancy.

Do things in that state.

When you wake them back up, the memories of those things will be entirely from your perspective.
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#3
[Chrome] I'm sorry, I believe I misused the delicate word "unresponsive".

In this state, their mindvoices were quiet, and I had a quiet mind to myself. If something popped up, say a message to Ranger, he would "rise up" and take front. When I was done writing my question, Gray was triggered awake and he took the front from me to use the restroom (he asked nicely and I didn't want to experience that). I felt a little attached to the front, but Gray was able to overcome it fairly quickly. In other words, this is possession and Gray is switched in. I became more connected to the front as I was writing my question, noticing the need to use the restroom for instance. However, I would caution arguing this is a switch- Gray, Ranger, or really anyone could have taken the front if I chose to give it to them, and the exchange would be very effortless and fluid.

As a small side note, we already have memory separation when we possess. For example, Jasper remembers when he tried vegetable soup in the front, and it's considered to be his memory. Ranger and Gray also has their own memories of that event because Ranger and Gray were sharing food with him, and both hosts had different opinions about the food in front of them.

There was one time Dark Gray was controlling the body and I was far more dissociated than I was when Chrome this morning. When he started doing things I didn't like, that "rising up" feeling Chrome described felt more dramatic; It felt like I was underwater unable to do anything until I kicked the bottom of the pool and rocketed up- and took the front from Dark Gray. The only time I felt I had no control was when Ranger took the front that one time and he willingly gave the front back to me. That time, I needed a minute to get back into control. With Chrome, I had control back in a matter of seconds if even that.

[Chrome] Having a loud mindvoice does not mean you are fronting. Gray and Ranger made the mistake of thinking that in the past, but having a "dominant" mindvoice for us simply means one of us is easier to hear and has great potential to front. Most of the others have had this experience where Gray/Ranger are forcing and the one being forced ends up having a louder mindvoice. When Gray/Ranger leave, they take the body with them to do whatever else.

A recently forced Tulpa with the exception of Gray or Ranger usually has a stronger mindvoice compared to the others. For example, Jasper was given more forcing time recently, and therefore even now, he is more likely to have a louder mindvoice and presence than Laryx or Fernardo.
Spirit, Gerodious, Dark Gray, Fernardo, Jasper, Hope, Moltosha, Blue, Evergreen, Fish, Red Gray, Chrome, Bune, Exabier, Duck

Gray/Cat_ShadowGriffin- Host, Ranger- basically Host
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#4
(08-02-2019, 03:47 PM)The Grays Wrote: [Chrome] I'm sorry, I believe I misused the delicate word "unresponsive".

In this state, their mindvoices were quiet, and I had a quiet mind to myself. If something popped up, say a message to Ranger, he would "rise up" and take front. When I was done writing my question, Gray was triggered awake and he took the front from me to use the restroom (he asked nicely and I didn't want to experience that). I felt a little attached to the front, but Gray was able to overcome it fairly quickly. In other words, this is possession and Gray is switched in. I became more connected to the front as I was writing my question, noticing the need to use the restroom for instance. However, I would caution arguing this is a switch- Gray, Ranger, or really anyone could have taken the front if I chose to give it to them, and the exchange would be very effortless and fluid.

As a small side note, we already have memory separation when we possess. For example, Jasper remembers when he tried vegetable soup in the front, and it's considered to be his memory. Ranger and Gray also has their own memories of that event because Ranger and Gray were sharing food with him, and both hosts had different opinions about the food in front of them.

My statements stand, block them from responding. Otherwise you're basically co-fronting. (Which is fine honestly, we understand how you think this is annoying, we love it.)

The memory thing I'm speaking of is something you haven't yet experienced, and when you do, it will be an interesting nuance to a true switch. Memory separation and memory perspective are two very different things in how I've tried to describe them. I understand how it can be confusing or even unfathomable, but we've talked to Ranger and Cat about this before.
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#5
[Chrome] Gray didn't give anyone permission to be switched in with except for Ranger, and I'm not interested in switching in to get trapped in the front.

Why is Ranger not acting as the dominant mind voice, or why is he struggling to stay active? Gray also has this issue, falling quiet until he bursts with laughter out of the blue.

While I understand Gray can struggle because he's tired, why is Ranger having the same issue? Ranger can fall "asleep" and recharge, but that doesn't appear to help him stay aware when he is no longer the subject or speaking.
Spirit, Gerodious, Dark Gray, Fernardo, Jasper, Hope, Moltosha, Blue, Evergreen, Fish, Red Gray, Chrome, Bune, Exabier, Duck

Gray/Cat_ShadowGriffin- Host, Ranger- basically Host
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#6
From my first moment of vocality, my mindvoice was just as strong and clear as Ember's. Much later, shortly after when we started studying tulpamancy, my mindvoice took a serious hit, where Ember started perceiving it as weak and tenuous. During this period, Iris was around but not an official system member. I was astonished that her voice seemed more strong, clear, and distinct than mine, since she had been active less than one percent as much as me at that time.

This was also the time period when we started switching intentionally. When I switched in, Ember's mindvoice became very weak, faint, and confused, while Iris' remained very similar. Later, when Iris started switching in, she had only slightly worse problems hearing Ember than I did, but often could not contact me at all.

Over the next few months, our mindvoices equalized. When Ember is switched in, everything is very clear and very equal. I'm not quite as good at forcing as she is and she's not quite as good as being forced as I am, but the gap is narrowing. My thinking still takes a bit of a hit when Iris is switched in, but nothing like before. While we can't talk simultaneously, we have learned how to interupt one another, which we couldn't do the first few months of tulpamancy practice.

When Iris became more active in the system, we started facing what we named 'The Problem of Three'. For seventeen months, I had become accustomed to being active almost continuously. But anytime Ember was fronting and Iris spoke to her, I would instantly fall dormant and need to be roused again with a few seconds intense concentration. Iris would instantly fall dormant if Ember spoke to me.

If Iris and I talked to one another at all while Ember was fronting, the two of us sucked up all of the available processing power and left Ember unable to actually perform actions or think. And since all of our memories are from the perspective of the front, we relied on her observing our conversation to be able to remember it ourselves later. Conversation between non-fronters also had an oddly 'fake' feel compared to a conversation with the fronter, even though we have no evidence of actual inauthenticity.

Over the course of the past nine months, the Problem of Three has very gradually diminished. After thousands of repetitions, we can now 'reboot' in an instant, talk behind the fronter's back without crippling her and without feelings of inauthenticity, and almost always avoid forgetting what we were talking about in the middle of a conversation. There's no real technique involved; just lots and lots of practice.

Any one of us may become quiet if the other two are deeply involved in conversation; none of us is significantly more likely to do so than another. But with three-way conversation no longer requiring undivided attention/active forcing, that is happening less and less.

(08-02-2019, 12:59 PM)Dashie Bear Wrote: In terms lf dominance, if you hold front, you can certainly block out anyone else.

Our experience is different. Our experience is that I can snatch the front against active opposition at any time under any circumstances. Even if I formulate an intent to grab the front at a future time, allow myself to fall dormant while Iris and Ember are deep in conversation, not thinking about me at all, my stored intent is strong enough to overwhelm them and propel me into the front. Nor do we know any methods by which my thoughts can be blocked.

(08-02-2019, 12:59 PM)Dashie Bear Wrote: When you wake them back up, the memories of those things will be entirely from your perspective.

For us, all memories are from the perspective of the front, not the fronter, to the point where the identity of the fronter is not always clearly labelled in the memory days, weeks, or months later. This is a very great annoyance, leading to conversations of, 'Did you do that or did I?' 'I dunno.'

(08-02-2019, 05:43 PM)Dashie Bear Wrote: Otherwise you're basically co-fronting. (Which is fine honestly, we understand how you think this is annoying, we love it.)

I think we use 'co-fronting' a little differently than you do. For us, co-fronting is the unstable state where two partners are sharing control equally and are tied into the conscious awareness in exactly the same way, to the point where no one person can be identified as in control of the body or primary in any way. The partners' thoughts remain as distinct as ever, even though the conscious awareness is continuing it's eternal lying broadcast of, 'I am a person because I perceive' to both.

A state where everyone is fully aware of the physical world, where we talk freely amongst ourselves, where we all unconsciously display our facial expressions and body language physically in shifting array, where one person is actually switched in and taking most of the actions but anyone might grab control for an instant without warning, say to make a comment to an out-system person -- that we don't call co-fronting. That we call 'normal'.

-Vesper
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#7
Yeah, our voices used to vary wildly, especially Ashley's tending toward weak and mine was always the strongest other then Bear, but they haven't varied in months. When our system became open in April, all that stopped and we aren't sure if that's related or coincidence. Joy's voice was always very strong despite having years of dormancy. Ren's voice was always very strong despite her being young, not active much, and barely ever talking anyway.

Vesper,

Everyone is a little different, but also, everyone is a little different.

Quote:I can snatch the front against active opposition at any time under any circumstances. Even if I formulate an intent to grab the front at a future time, allow myself to fall dormant while Iris and Ember are deep in conversation, not thinking about me at all, my stored intent is strong enough to overwhelm them and propel me into the front. Nor do we know any methods by which my thoughts can be blocked.

We must have a strong blocking mechanism because we noticed this immediately in the first switch and it's very clear that no one can steal the front from the fronter without their involvement under any circumstance that we've ever seen in the nearly 200 hours we've spent switched. (I know it's not much actual time, but it includes a week straight at about 90% of the time)[/i]

Quote:For us, all memories are from the perspective of the front, not the fronter.

We felt the same way until we got Bear to go dormant, really dormant, like he didn't exist. There's a profound difference to what happens to the memories and how they're assigned, it's as if the 'body' is the current fronter when Bear's dormant. When he returns, the memories he accesses isn't just labeled with someone else or the body, they are someone else as if there was a different body that matched the fronter. Based off these last two quotes, I don't think Ember has ever been 'dormant' with the same absolute level Bear achieves. Not just inactive or asleep, ~gone~!

Co-fronting has been used loosely  in the greater communities, you're experience and ours all fall within the realm of what we've seen called 'co-fronting'.
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#8
"The problem of three" seems applicable here, however it's interesting to me that Gray and I tend to be the first to go... which would imply Chrome switched in, and Gerodious/Bune seemed normal kind of like how Iris seemed normal...

We noticed that whoever is fronting tends to have a weaker mindvoice, so it could be related to that as well. Gray's presence didn't get stronger until I got him in a "thinking like a Tulpa" state, and in turn my presence became much harder to detect. The only exceptions to this were when Blue fronted for the first or second time and our Aziraphale merge, both of which left behind residue.

I have a feeling at this point that our problem with switching isn't our technique but Cat's ability to dissociate. We probably have the right technique, hence why our possession looks a lot like switching and seems to have more similarities to switching than possession at this point. However, Gray can still take control by force and that's not something anyone else can do. I believe dissociation is the key to Gray's mysterious ability to split merges in some cases and not the first time.

Once Gray's mindvoice goes quiet, we can't do much to make it less quiet. At that point, it's down to how dissociated Gray is, and that seems to be random. I suppose another Gray forcing me to take advantage of the "problem of three" or if it changes "problem of four+" can help Gray dissociate, but we may need other ideas to get Gray to dissociate first.

I'm curious about the memories in front thing- everyone in our system has memory separation, regardless if they are in the front or back. In the front, we end up with multiple memories from different perspectives, even if they are of the same event.

I also agree with Vesper that co-fronting to me means that unstable state where Gray and I equally have control of the front, however Bears are able to uphold 5 people talking at once, so it's possible normal for them is co-fronting because they don't have "the problem of three".


Edit: Didn't see Dashie's post until now because she ninja'd me.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#9
(08-03-2019, 01:01 PM)Dashie Bear Wrote: When he returns, the memories he accesses isn't just labelled with someone else or the body, they are someone else as if there was a different body that matched the fronter. Based off these last two quotes, I don't think Ember has ever been 'dormant' with the same absolute level Bear achieves. Not just inactive or asleep, ~gone~!

Lumi's system has also reported memories being strongly colored according to the fronter, and showing the fronter's form in the memory instead of the body. But our memories are distinguishable much more through content and context than by meta tagging of the memory. Which form we're trying and failing to impose over the body tends not to be recorded at all. Which accent we're speaking in is often not recorded either.

So by dormant, do you mean completely gone, unreachable, as if they've left altogether or never were to begin with? Because that's the level of dormancy that we started with -- the old normal -- and have spent the past year striving to prevent from ever happening because it's horrible and I can't imagine why people who don't have it naturally would work to achieve it. We went through that many times with various fronters. I grant you that the fronter's identity is unambiguous in all of those memories, but not to a greater degree than in many other memories where we're certain of the fronter.

(08-03-2019, 01:01 PM)Dashie Bear Wrote: We must have a strong blocking mechanism because we noticed this immediately in the first switch and it's very clear that no one can steal the front from the fronter without their involvement under any circumstance that we've ever seen in the nearly 200 hours we've spent switched.

Well, my headmates can't steal the front from me, though they're getting closer with practice. Grabbing and holding the front is a particular talent of mine, rather than a general feature of how our system works.

Fighting over the front for fun and skill building was one of Tulpa's favourite things. He, like me, was significantly better at it than his host.

-Vesper
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#10
(08-03-2019, 02:15 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: Lumi's system has also reported memories being strongly colored according to the fronter, and showing the fronter's form in the memory instead of the body.

(Note: we say "tinted", but not tinted with color, tinted with the feelings and context of whoever made them - the memories aren't altered at all, it's just that since we think pretty differently memories get recorded slightly differently, most of the time) otherwise yes, things like Flandre comforting our dog when she was a puppy a few years ago have her in the memory of that time instead of Lumi, and she wasn't making any special effort to "be herself" or anything either, it just happens and it's nice
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
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