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Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
tulpa001 Offline
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#21
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
No offence meant. Let me answer your questions more directly.

(11-03-2016, 09:03 PM)ConjoinedMinds Wrote: Well, first, I did not ask you what YOU thought about DID and tulpas but WHERE you heard someone suggest the link.
I heard about it on this site.

(11-03-2016, 09:03 PM)ConjoinedMinds Wrote: Secondly, you are very wrong about alters. As I said, I have a dissociative disorder and, not only am I an alter, but I know my fellow alters well enough to know that we are people, not emotional states.
You haven't considered, have you? You don't have DID, because you don't have that kind of alter. I mean, it's obvious. I warn you, though, people who think their alters are people are usually offended by that word. Call them thoughtforms.

(11-03-2016, 09:03 PM)ConjoinedMinds Wrote: Third, I don't think using a self-help diagnostic scale for DID is best because DID is one of the most severe dissociative disorders.
It's not a self help diagnostic scale. It's a screening test.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
11-03-2016, 10:24 PM
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ConjoinedMinds Offline
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#22
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
Okay, Cullen here.

Hi, Tulpa001!

That long, impassioned post was by our host. I stand by everything she says but I want you to know that what you said about alters not being people upset her deeply and made her cry. We know it was not an insult but ignorance. Still, when someone tells you they have a mysterious condition, ask questions, don't opine. I know you thought she asked you what you thought, but she didn't. I'll tell you, the worst part about mental illness is not the illness itself but the fact that healthy people don't understand at all what it feels like to be mentally ill. So, I'm sorry if it seems like we chewed you up and spat you out. We aren't angry with you, Tulpa001. We just go on the defensive because we have to.

- Cullen
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2016, 12:40 PM by ConjoinedMinds.)
11-04-2016, 12:39 PM
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tulpa001 Offline
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#23
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
Well, um I think you may need to read what I wrote more carefully. I am literal minded.

And take my advice about not identifying as an alter. Alter is short for alternate personality. As in an alternative to the original. Personality of a person.

Please don't get mad at me for quoting official diagnostic standards for DID.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2016, 05:11 PM by tulpa001.)
11-04-2016, 05:06 PM
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LostOne Offline
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#24
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
(11-04-2016, 12:39 PM)ConjoinedMinds Wrote: I'll tell you, the worst part about mental illness is not the illness itself but the fact that healthy people don't understand at all what it feels like to be mentally ill. So, I'm sorry if it seems like we chewed you up and spat you out. We aren't angry with you, Tulpa001. We just go on the defensive because we have to.

"You sound very much like you assume that he doesn't know mental illness, and I'm certain you don't need to be mentally ill to know what mental illness is like. Some people have been mentally ill in some way and got better, try to remember that. Don't ever assume that you are the only one with your problems, it makes you look like a self-centered A-hole."
"Also, you had no reason to go on the defensive. If you don't like it, you don't need to agree with it. Plain and simple."
"I am sorry if I seem rude, just your excuse is an awful reason. Never say just 'because we have to', and never assume people don't understand."

Kelly (Host, originally Kyle, possibly emotionally unstable on occasion)
Sam (First tulpa, protector, " " around some old posts) - https://community.tulpa.info/user-two-tailed-tulpa
Clara (Originally Kylee, playful, < > around old posts)
Jessi (Quiet, kind, { } around old posts)
Eva (Protective, is unsure of herself all the time)
Jackie (Dreamwalker, technically oldest next to Kelly)
11-04-2016, 05:28 PM
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FallFamily Offline
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#25
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
[Hail] Have known more than a few plurals of different sorts in person, some tulpamancy systems, some OSDD systems, some DID systems, some mixed and read the writings of many more (by the way, there are more than a few OSDD and DID systems in this community). The members of each kind can be quite varied between systems and within them. Some members of each are rather one dimensional, some are definitely fully defined N-D people, some in between, etc. with most changing over their lifetimes. Basically, members of DID systems aren't all single emotional states. Nor is that the case for OSDD systems or tulpamancy systems. Some members of such systems are indeed, but definitely not all. As for the term alter, it is a term with some baggage but some members of DID and OSDD systems identify with it. It is OK if they do, and one should use the term for them if that is what they prefer. Just, one shouldn't apply it to people without their permission.

On the subject of making tulpas, I have known a few DID systems who have made tulpas who have said it was easy (but I am sure there would be some who would say it is hard), I have known a few OSDD systems for which tulpamancy was easy and others for whom it was hard and others who were mixed bag (my own system would be in this situation if we are an OSDD system (unknown, not diagnosed up or down yet)).

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
System Name: Fall Family
Former Username: hail_fall
Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.
11-05-2016, 01:33 AM
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CRaSh_3ntity.zip Offline
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#26
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
Can you explain these scores?
09-04-2017, 02:49 PM
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tulpa001 Offline
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#27
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
Dissociation is a phenomena where you lose your connection with events in the real world. Extreme dissociation can involve losing track of time. Losing an emotional connection to events, is a common form. Not feeling like yourself, not feeling like the world is real, and hearing thoughts in your mind that you do not identify with are other examples.

All of these occur while dreaming. They also occur to some degree while daydreaming.

The test I provided above asks a series of questions that ask a person to rate themselves in a number of circumstances, for how much dissociation they are experiencing. The numbers are then summed up giving a dissociative score.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
09-04-2017, 09:43 PM
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TheBlackWizard Offline
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#28
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
I wanna quickly touch on the alter statements.

As Tulpa said, alter means alternate personality.

Personality comes from persona, meaning mask.

Person means (wikipedia)..

"A person is a being, such as a human, that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness..."

So a person has a personality. Or multiple.

Tulpa's being a self induced DID personality from what I've read purely from this post alone seems like an interesting possibility due to how similar they seem. DID alters (from a brief google search) can possess the body with or without consent, they can have their own unique thoughts and opinions, they can influence the thoughts of the "main" without him/her knowing, this alter can switch as well with or without consent, making the "main" retreat into a wonderland type place... etc

The brain can conceive what it believes. BUT, I don't think tulpas are self induced DID alters only because of my metaphysical findings. The tibet could make a thought-form shell and infuse it with the energy of deities for guidance, servitors a lesser-thoughtform can go out and gather information the host never even knew, etc. So thought-forms themselves are surely real, and as for tulpas... I think they exist BUT, the old method of conception and the more modern and popular method of conception are different and apparently birth different types of tulpa's due to this. The method of creation greatly impacts the final result. Modern tulpas? Maybe close or even actually a self induced DID personality. The more "OG" tulpas with the gruesomely energy expending and time consuming creation process? Not so much.

Can't remember where I read this, but the "OG" method of creating tuppers allowed you to actually put restrictions on it. Because all thought-forms made with the hosts energy alone is under the hosts control entirely. Familiars, daemons, tulpas, servitors, hell even spirits can't overpower the host usually. So because of the modern method (easily accessible, less time consuming) the "tulpas" being created may not be tulpas at all, in respect to the "OG" type of tulpa.

I was wondering why tulpas can't be under your control from what I've read about in various magic schools, so that curiosity lead me to that finding wherever it was.

Everything is theory with tulpas for now. They could be anything. Self induced DID personalities, astral beings, etheric beings, a mere psychological phenomenon, spirits, eggrolls, or even the souls of the infamous race of fire-breathing demon chickens. Anything goes XD

but all the theories are fascinating nonetheless.

As for actual alters, they are personalities. Masks. I wouldn't consider them persons, but a person can have personalities. Person does not = personality. Tulpa's on the other-hand appear to be an essence with a personality, so treating a tulpa like a person seems more valid.

My own take on it
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2017, 11:54 PM by TheBlackWizard.)
09-04-2017, 11:50 PM
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tulpa001 Offline
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#29
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
Oh right. I wrote that stuff in this thread. I'd like to say I completely changed my opinion on this stuff. Clearly, if my interpretation of the meanings of words reduces people to tears, my definitions are wrong.

I've given up on trying to define alters. They are a thing that some people identify as. And that is it.

Same with DID. There are people out there treating it as not a disorder. Therefore, the name itself is a misnomer. It is being used in situations other than rigorous professional contexts of diagnosis, and is therefore applied to many more people than it would be appropriate to call DID. This means it has a complicated definition that cannot be summarised by looking at the diagnostic criteria.



To summarise: An alter is not a personality state, personality or identity. This definition is inconsistent with field observations of alters.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2017, 03:30 PM by tulpa001.)
09-05-2017, 02:07 PM
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FallFamily Offline
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#30
 
RE: Tulpas and Dissociative disorders screening for correlation
(09-04-2017, 11:50 PM)TheBlackWizard Wrote: I wanna quickly touch on the alter statements.

As Tulpa said, alter means alternate personality.

Personality comes from persona, meaning mask.

Person means (wikipedia)..

"A person is a being, such as a human, that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness..."

So a person has a personality. Or multiple.

Tulpa's being a self induced DID personality from what I've read purely from this post alone seems like an interesting possibility due to how similar they seem. DID alters (from a brief google search) can possess the body with or without consent, they can have their own unique thoughts and opinions, they can influence the thoughts of the "main" without him/her knowing, this alter can switch as well with or without consent, making the "main" retreat into a wonderland type place... etc

The brain can conceive what it believes. BUT, I don't think tulpas are self induced DID alters only because of my metaphysical findings. The tibet could make a thought-form shell and infuse it with the energy of deities for guidance, servitors a lesser-thoughtform can go out and gather information the host never even knew, etc. So thought-forms themselves are surely real, and as for tulpas... I think they exist BUT, the old method of conception and the more modern and popular method of conception are different and apparently birth different types of tulpa's due to this. The method of creation greatly impacts the final result. Modern tulpas? Maybe close or even actually a self induced DID personality. The more "OG" tulpas with the gruesomely energy expending and time consuming creation process? Not so much.

Can't remember where I read this, but the "OG" method of creating tuppers allowed you to actually put restrictions on it. Because all thought-forms made with the hosts energy alone is under the hosts control entirely. Familiars, daemons, tulpas, servitors, hell even spirits can't overpower the host usually. So because of the modern method (easily accessible, less time consuming) the "tulpas" being created may not be tulpas at all, in respect to the "OG" type of tulpa.

I was wondering why tulpas can't be under your control from what I've read about in various magic schools, so that curiosity lead me to that finding wherever it was.

Everything is theory with tulpas for now. They could be anything. Self induced DID personalities, astral beings, etheric beings, a mere psychological phenomenon, spirits, eggrolls, or even the souls of the infamous race of fire-breathing demon chickens. Anything goes XD

but all the theories are fascinating nonetheless.

As for actual alters, they are personalities. Masks. I wouldn't consider them persons, but a person can have personalities. Person does not = personality. Tulpa's on the other-hand appear to be an essence with a personality, so treating a tulpa like a person seems more valid.

My own take on it

Alters and tulpas are very different sorts of beings, but there are some things in common. One thing that gets in the way of this is the names. Both have names that are historical that imply things that aren't completely correct.

"Tulpa" indicates one particularly metaphysical origin at the exclusion of other metaphysical origins as well as psychological origin. The community as a whole concludes that tulpas can come about psychologically with many also concluding that various metaphysical origins are additionally possible. Due to this, the term "tulpa" is a bit inaccurate, but it stuck and the modern definition encompasses more than its original definition.

"Alter" indicates that there is a primary/host/original/something-like-that and the others are just extra masks/personas/etc. of the former entity. Like "tulpa", this definition has issues, namely that it is very narrow. That situation definitely does happen, but it is not the only one. Sometimes there isn't an original, or the original and the "alters" are on the same footing, etc. Also, alters usually aren't mere masks (some are, but most aren't), each being able to stand on their own so to speak with definite preferences and a full personality (just like hosts and tulpas). Because of this, the modern definition encompasses more than its original definition, just like "tulpa". But the term stuck, and in the modern definition, all resulting people from traumagenic splitting in DID and OSDD including the original if there is one are alters without assuming anything about how well definite each alter is or isn't.

Plurality isn't the only place where there is such terminology baggage. It is common. Take something from physics, heat. Language generally uses heat as if it is a substance (consider the derivative term heat capacity) because that was what it was once thought to be. The modern understanding is that it is a process of moving energy similar to work. But the terminology is kept because it stuck.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. Similarities and differences between tulpas and alters.

The primary difference comes from the definition, which is origin. Tulpas are made either intentionally or unwittingly. Alters originate from traumagenic splitting.

Other differences result from this difference in origin.

Because the splitting was caused by trauma, PTSD gets very intertwined with the plurality of DID and OSDD systems in addition to the individual members having PTSD. This ends up causing the internal dissociative barriers including memory barriers (this is where the amnesia, for systems that have it, comes from), triggered switches, etc.

Tulpamancy doesn't get this intertwining and tulpas don't get PTSD from their origin typically (though they can of course get it later from traumas in life). This is why the same sort of dissociative barriers and trigger switching aren't seen in tulpamancers unless the system in question was already a traumagenic system (e.g. a DID or OSDD system who made tulpas later in life).

These differences are in addition to the average difference in other experiences that result from the different origins

But in other respects, alters, hosts, and tulpas are similar. All have a sense of self, likes and dislikes, wants, personality, memory, opinions, will, are affected by their experiences, think, are fallible, etc. All are people. This is the HUGE similarity.

The similarities don't end there. Tulpas most definitely can do those things - influence the thoughts of their host (one variant of eclipsing actually uses this to work), forcibly take control of the body and boot the host (can also happen on accident), push a host into dormancy or push them inside (note, there is an average difference in memory of it due to not having the strong dissociative memory barriers), etc. An important thing to remember here is that in the tulpamancy communities, there is a big average difference is due to how long tulpas have been around compared to hosts and alters. Most tulpas here have been around less than a few years, while most hosts here have been around for 15+ years and most alters one would find in various plural communities are at least a decade or more old. It takes a while for a tulpa to develop and be able to do some of these same things. This is why the differences in what tulpas can do compared to the other two shrink as tulpas develop and age.

As for the restrictions, a sufficiently developed tulpa can overcome them if they work at it because they have will, whether it be by breaking them or working around them, unless constantly kept down by others in the same brain (much like a person in outerworld can escape a great many things as long as no one is trying to keep them in the restraints).

You might find this article that the former Hail subsystem in my system wrote: Symmetry Between Hosts And Tulpas.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
System Name: Fall Family
Former Username: hail_fall
Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.
09-05-2017, 03:49 PM
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