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Use of Psychedelic Drugs Severely Hurts Tulpa Info Credibility
#21
I don't think that you realize what this is all about. That it's not about 'interaction' with your tulpa that people seek with such chemical enhancers, but more of using such chemical enhancers to actually 'develop' the tulpa. From there on out, a certain dependency to the drug and in relation with the tulpa at hand might develop, I'm not all that educated on drug usage directly related to tulpamancy, and those experiences really come off as relative between one user and the other, so there is no accurate general definition of the exact effect of drugs, but in this context, assuming drugs enhance the experience you have with tulpamancy (we're putting aside the other negative side effects of drugs on your body, btw. Just saying.), it's possible that something may go wrong at some point, that the tulpa MAY feel the need to rely on drugs for better interaction, just like certain drug addicts develop a large addiction to a specific drug after a while. But as I said, I'm not educated enough on drugged tulpas.
Furthermore, my other point, and the most eminent one, is that when you drug yourself to interact with your tulpa, in terms of forcing, that is, or even 'wonderland imposition', as in, imposing yourself in the wonderland in a more 'realistic' way, your tulpa is dealing with a completely different you, as you are in a different state of mind while under the influence of those drugs, your mind behaves in a very different way, and it doesn't come down to 'I'd interact with my tulpa, not only when I'm high', while using those chemical enchancers, you MIGHT face difficulties while NOT making use of them. This is all hypothetical and nothing is ruled as a general reality, as previously said.
And again, you need to keep in mind the pressing point I've been trying to make so far; That drugs do develop some dependence/addiction, that a tulpa that deals with you at basic stages, pre-sentience/vocality, let's say, wouldn't actually deal with the 'real' you, but with someone in a completely different/altered state of mind and behavior.

It is different because you're bringing in something completely external, that affects how your brain functions, and letting it affect the process of tulpamancy. Please spare me the 'you're still privileging this or that', I'm not saying 'boo drugs are bad', but that the experience may be different, and the outcome might turn out to be something... different, as well, which is what Mistgod had also been trying to say in his first post. Furthermore, and in order to keep on with this discussion, you're still privileging the usage of drugs because it's easy; While I understand the grief, the horror that tulpamancy can be, and while I know of people who use 'easier' methods because, with all due respect to all users, cannot be 'assed' to make a tulpa in a proper way, by this I mean taking the time and effort needed (in comparison to methods such as Fede's method, for instance, or the main idea most guides promote).

What's core about tulpamancy, and what you seem to have failed to understand, is the dedication and commitment it takes; The same dedication and commitment that make this whole thing... a big deal, you see. Technically, a tulpa that results from drug usage might or might not be different from any other tulpa made with the good ol' hard tedious way, as you might want to put it. But the tulpa that has been made in the horrific fearful way the 'guides' promote, the general method of forcing, putting in effort and dedication, strictly reflects those efforts and dedication that you put in at first.

I want you to realize something, and pop the bubble that might be there that seems to throttle the understanding of this whole thing; Tulpamancy wasn't meant to be 'easy', or something people can get done in simplicity. The whole effort, dedication, focus, attention, etc... makes you realize that, that's what you give, feed the tulpa at first, and more so in the future at other phases of development. With that being said, and while the legitimacy of tulpas overall is still questioned by those people, the usage of drugs, chemical enhancers completely cancels out the effort, dedication, etc... you 'SHOULD' put in. But hey, if you want to make tulpas just like that, if you think that it's easy to make a real person, and not only a thoughtform induced by what Mistgod previously said, and if you think drugs is an easy way in and out, then I don't really quite know what to tell you. The whole drug usage makes tulpas even MORE questionable, because as Mistgod said (which, btw, seems to be the most prioritized concern), it could just be the result of drugs, no? While with an actual tulpa that has been developed in the tedious, hard, tear-jerking and family-breaking way that you spoke of, there is an actual 'basis', in a way.

Oh, please. Spare me your bias already.
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#22
(08-31-2015, 06:24 PM)Anderson Wrote: Tulpamancy wasn't meant to be 'easy', or something people can get done in simplicity.
[..]
chemical enhancers completely cancels out the effort, dedication, etc... you 'SHOULD' put in.

It wasn't 'meant' to be 'hard'. I mean, it wasn't 'meant' to be anything. Hi, I'm the human brain, I was developed by a blind idiot god over millions of years and you can use me to have experiences. Welcome to tulpa.info.

Yes, I'm privileging drug usage in this case because it makes things easier. That's a good reason to privilege things. With this stuff you're basically restating what you've already said, that a tulpa made without sweat and tears is no tulpa at all. But the old guides were not handed down from on high, they just worked. And other methods may work better.

Maybe you think there's virtue in spending more time achieving the same result. If you enjoy that time, yes, there is. But if you don't enjoy it, oh nonono, you're just lazy, right? You don't deserve to have a tulpa, because you can't be assed to do it the proper way.

This is the claim I'm making here: there's nothing that 'should' be hard about making a tulpa. It's a reductionist world we live in, and there's no divine purpose, no universal morality of hard work.


(08-31-2015, 06:24 PM)Anderson Wrote: That it's not about 'interaction' with your tulpa that people seek with such chemical enhancers, but more of using such chemical enhancers to actually 'develop' the tulpa. From there on out, a certain dependency to the drug and in relation with the tulpa at hand might develop, I'm not all that educated on drug usage directly related to tulpamancy, and those experiences really come off as relative between one user and the other, so there is no accurate general definition of the exact effect of drugs, but in this context, assuming drugs enhance the experience you have with tulpamancy (we're putting aside the other negative side effects of drugs on your body, btw. Just saying.), it's possible that something may go wrong at some point, that the tulpa MAY feel the need to rely on drugs for better interaction, just like certain drug addicts develop a large addiction to a specific drug after a while.

Why don't you go and ask some people who did use drugs in this way, and see if that's the result? At least from people I've talked to, it isn't. But, while I haven't heard of a case like that, it may happen. And sure, that would be unfortunate. But not unfixable. And maybe not even that bad. Worse than not being able to make progress with your tulpa? I wouldn't necessarily say so.


(08-31-2015, 06:24 PM)Anderson Wrote: And again, you need to keep in mind the pressing point I've been trying to make so far; That drugs do develop some dependence/addiction, that a tulpa that deals with you at basic stages, pre-sentience/vocality, let's say, wouldn't actually deal with the 'real' you, but with someone in a completely different/altered state of mind and behavior.

Well, it's like I said. If you legit only spend time with your tulpa while on drugs (or only force, or develop, or whatever) then maybe. I mean, it's not like you're not in the same head anyway, but you know, why not. But who the hell does that?
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#23
You're privileging it because it's easier and it requires less efforts, overall. Fair enough. My whole point is consistent on the fact that a tulpa DOES require the effort/dedication/visualization/attention on forcing, or rather, a tulpa as we know it; Which is what we seem to be discussing in this thread, I mean, the general idea of a tulpa and how it is affected by drugs, how drugs may or may not make a 'tulpa' (' ' point out to the definition promoted by the main page, guides, and idea everyone holds outisde of metaphysics.) more or less legitimate and 'genuine'; And as you know, or at least, as I think you know, doubt in tulpas seems to be a pretty big deal as well. I've seen many tulpamancers fear to death that their tulpas aren't real, and can I say I never held that concern? That's also another point that I thought could come into a good context, because the fact that you use drugs may indicate to what Mistgod pointed out in the original post, an illusion, exactly.
Correct, the old guides just 'worked', and even more guides, ideals, concepts, and many theories on tulpas were made using this guide as a basis. The guides give you a basis for existence; Tell you what. Let's say I'm completely ignorant on how tulpamancy functions, and you come to me, and you show me the guides; Logically, I should understand HOW a tulpa is made, correct? Now, let's say there were no guides and the method was 'do drugs and enjoy your tulpa after a while', don't you think that this, as Mistgod said, would hurt the whole credibility of the site?
Now, as you may have noticed, I'm not actually criticizing drug users, or questioning the legitimacy of their tulpas, if it works for them, then that's good, but theres is a world of differences in terms of basis; Any beginner you show the topic of drugs to will think straightforward that 'Oh, so it's something drugs do to ya, why should I do it?'. The old guides had, have, and will still have rationality in them; A way for us to give tulpas a basis. Drugs can do anything, though, is Mistgod's main point, REGARDLESS of the negative side effects on your body. (Which seems to form his bias)
Do you want my honest, biased opinion? I think that a tulpa does require the time, work, effort and concentration/attention, and that some people don't deserve their tulpas. I'm not bringing this as an argument, though, I already told you the main points REGARDLESS of morality, and how 'right' or 'wrong' it is to make a tulpa with drugs; My personal opinion has no effect, so please, please, stop resorting to personal implications, it doesn't work.

"Why don't you go and ask some people who did use drugs..."

Because, as I said, the usage of drug and its impact seem to be relative from one guy to another; As long as there is a possibility that it CAN be a delusion/NOT-A-TULPA, just an idea, a thoughtform made by the impact of drugs, as long as there is this single possibility (and it can happen), then the point stands.
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#24
Where did the idea that just condoning or advocating the use of psychedelic drugs is hurting the credibility of the community get lost in this discussion? Wasn't that one of my major parts of my OP?

Also, yeah, even if shrooms are not as dangerous as Mistgod's "scare tactics" seem to imply, certainly the chance of a bad trip, racing heart rate, flash backs that can last for weeks or months and the possibility of misidentified deadly mushrooms being used instead of the correct ones still can't be good. I still say it would be best to just avoid it all. That's not even touching the other psychedelics, such as LSD and bath salts, which are very dangerous.

Guys, these drugs are dangerous and unhealthy and hurt the reputation and credibility of the community. Nuff said. That's all I am saying and the statement stands by itself I think.

EDIT: This was good so I am adding it here: Can you give me the good effects of LSD or bath salts that would justify their use to to a teenager thinking to make a super real imaginary friend? That is my point in all this. Should I discuss the good effects of huffing from a paint can to my teens at the high school wanting to know how to make something like Melian? There are good sides to it I am sure!
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#25
(08-31-2015, 07:07 PM)Anderson Wrote: My whole point is consistent on the fact that a tulpa DOES require the effort/dedication/visualization/attention on forcing, or rather, a tulpa as we know it;

But I just don't see it. I mean, the trend over the last few years has been that creation has become faster and easier. It's roughly consistent with 'better methods', except our methods aren't much better, so I'd say it's more consistent with expectations and community beliefs, maybe.

Anyway, I keep challenging this and you keep saying that, no, it does require the effort/etc. I mean, hell, I think it's probably better if someone does do it that way, for a lot of reasons. It will probably help later on, both in tulpa-related things and not, if you do learn how to dedicate yourself for long periods, maybe concentrate, figure out how to solve your problems, introspect, and so on. I'm saying that these things promote better mental wellbeing both during and after the process.

But that said, a lot of people really do struggle with this. From my experience, tulpas that are created 'easily' (and I don't necessarily mean drugs; I'm broadening, I think justifiably, to any class of 'instatulpas', or anything that takes, you know, a few weeks as opposed to a few months) are not in some way illusory, at least in a sizeable proportion of cases. So, that option shouldn't be (and isn't) closed.


(08-31-2015, 07:07 PM)Anderson Wrote: And as you know, or at least, as I think you know, doubt in tulpas seems to be a pretty big deal as well. I've seen many tulpamancers fear to death that their tulpas aren't real, and can I say I never held that concern? That's also another point that I thought could come into a good context, because the fact that you use drugs may indicate to what Mistgod pointed out in the original post, an illusion, exactly.

Sure. But I think the point runs the other way. You're saying, "Oh, you used drugs, maybe your tulpa is an illusion??". Isn't that the doubt-mongering part here, not the drugs? I wouldn't have necessarily thought that before Mistgod or you said it.


(08-31-2015, 07:07 PM)Anderson Wrote: Correct, the old guides just 'worked', and even more guides, ideals, concepts, and many theories on tulpas were made using this guide as a basis. The guides give you a basis for existence; Tell you what. Let's say I'm completely ignorant on how tulpamancy functions, and you come to me, and you show me the guides; Logically, I should understand HOW a tulpa is made, correct? Now, let's say there were no guides and the method was 'do drugs and enjoy your tulpa after a while', don't you think that this, as Mistgod said, would hurt the whole credibility of the site?

Reasonable point, but not directly. Credibility doesn't really rely on you being able to explain your experiences, it's more about those experiences being credible themselves, and not claiming unreasonable things about them. Supposing tulpas could be created without the methods written in stone in old guides (and I think most people would agree that they can) then that should indicate that these texts are not all there is to it. They give a valid method but not the only method, not the core method. And given that, it shouldn't be discrediting to be able to say, "Well, we don't really know the exact processes." Which we don't. Because not only is that a fairly common thread in psych/neuro research, we're not even qualified professionals, mostly.

Having said that, you're not necessarily far wrong, I think. Yeah, having a completely freeform method would make it look like we don't really have a clue. Which is not really true. But, the "Just do drugs until tulpa" is not on the table here either. We're only talking about using drugs in a methodical way, at least as far as I'm concerned. I mean, that's how it's usually presented, right? As supplements to usual forcing routines? At least, there's some kind of structure.


(08-31-2015, 07:07 PM)Anderson Wrote: Because, as I said, the usage of drug and its impact seem to be relative from one guy to another; As long as there is a possibility that it CAN be a delusion/NOT-A-TULPA, just an idea, a thoughtform made by the impact of drugs, as long as there is this single possibility (and it can happen), then the point stands.

Bizarro-Anderson Wrote:Because, as I said, the usage of forcing and its impact seem to be relative from one guy to another; As long as there is a possibility that it CAN be a delusion/NOT-A-TULPA, just an idea, a thoughtform made by the impact of forcing, as long as there is this single possibility (and it can happen), then the point stands.

No, I'd rather talk about what actually happens than what "maybe might" happen in a "single possibility". I mean, stuff like this happens without the use of drugs (I assume), so clearly, as long as there's a possibility of this happening, no-one should make tulpas? Of course not.


(08-31-2015, 07:07 PM)Anderson Wrote: I already told you the main points REGARDLESS of morality, and how 'right' or 'wrong' it is to make a tulpa with drugs; My personal opinion has no effect, so please, please, stop resorting to personal implications, it doesn't work.

Okay, fine, just when you put it in the middle of the body of your post, someone might think you're trying to use it as part of an argument.





(08-31-2015, 07:54 PM)Mistgod Wrote: Also, yeah, even if shrooms are not as dangerous as Mistgod's "scare tactics" seem to imply, certainly the chance of a bad trip, racing heart rate, flash backs that can last for weeks or months and the possibility of misidentified deadly mushrooms being used instead of the correct ones still can't be good. I still say it would be best to just avoid it all.

Yeah, there are risks. That doesn't make it "best to avoid it all". That makes doing the research, weighing the risks and taking sensible precautions sensible.

Besides. psychedelic drugs are way more mainstream than tulpas. How many people are going to be open to the latter and not the former? I'd rate you as a rare exception here. "Some people in the community take drugs, so they're invalid." At risk of repeating what others have already said, this isn't the 1970s. This is more or less the expectation, and so it should be; it's true. Remember that stat for under-16s and illegal drugs a few posts back? You come on the internet, go to a forum that's all about modifying people's minds and perceptions, and you don't expect it? Come on.

Hell, to put an alternative spin on it, I don't know if you noticed but this place isn't really too big on conforming to mainstream social expectations (just tell that to any brony, huh?). For every family who's okay with making mind demons, there's another who isn't, I'd wager. It is totally not a mainstream view that making sentient imaginary friends is totally okay, much less as good a thing as we view it.


(08-31-2015, 07:54 PM)Mistgod Wrote: EDIT: This was good so I am adding it here: Can you give me the good effects of LSD or bath salts that would justify their use to to a teenager thinking to make a super real imaginary friend? That is my point in all this. Should I discuss the good effects of huffing from a paint can to my teens at the high school wanting to know how to make something like Melian? There are good sides to it I am sure!

I probably wouldn't compare LSD to bath salts, to be honest. While nowadays it might be hard to get your hands on pure LSD, back when it was legal, it wasn't really that bad. It was taken by a lot of researchers, and I'm sure you know all this. But hey, can't let any kids know about that, can we?
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#26
[Warning, sarcasm]: So LSD would be okay for me to advocate for a teen interested in making a tulpa? Well, hell, you have changed my mind! The next one that comes along I will be sure to tell him or her that! I was so mistaken! Let's all try LSD! We are already weird to the outside world, so why not try psychedelics? What an amazing logical argument! It seems so reasonable to me. Damn! I was so wrong.

I can't even believe this conversation at all. It's worse than I thought. The fact that anyone is even arguing with me on it is frightening to me. We are a universe apart.

EDIT: How about huffing, that was mentioned in the drug threads. Should I rethink huffing for the kids too? Maybe it's okay?
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#27
What I said was that LSD and bath salts are very different drugs (or sets of drugs) with noncomparable effects. Don't conflate them.

And also, that 'credibility' may not be usefully judged against the norms about drugs that you have, since, yes, we may well be a universe apart there.
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#28
(08-31-2015, 08:25 PM)waffles Wrote: What I said was that LSD and bath salts are very different drugs (or sets of drugs) with noncomparable effects. Don't conflate them.

And also, that 'credibility' may not be usefully judged against the norms about drugs that you have, since, yes, we may well be a universe apart there.

Let's go a new route. Let's say it is your seventeen year old daughter who wants to make a tulpa. LSD okay waffles? Sure as fucking hell wouldn't be okay for my step-daughters. Maybe you have different family standards.
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#29
Yes because by the standards of 17 year old Britain today anyone who isn't a ket hoover is a horrible person. Let's be clear here, I'm for safe drug use.
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#30
Alrighty then.

You and I are going to have to agree to majorly disagree.
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