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What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?
Cat_ShadowGriffin Offline
Gray the Cat-Griff
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#1
 
What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

I and Ranger at various times have mentioned that I have other characters in my head. After being exposed to Tulpamancy and forcing Ranger more, I came to the conclusion that the others were probably NPCs:
  • Some were created in a very sort period of time
  • They were initially designed to have shallow personalities
  • I did not spend too much time individually forcing them
  • They were used in role plays and whatever else

However, this additional information makes this situation more complicated:
  • We have expressed feelings towards them and they have returned sympathy or other emotions
  • They develop and change over time
  • Some have surprised both me and Ranger
  • Death is something that evidently stressed some of them
  • I talked and interacted with them just like how I did with Ranger before I found out about Tulpas.

The first question is if they qualify for being Tulpas or not. If that is true then at worst, I am at risk of having 10+ Tulpas in my head, all made by accident.

One of the problems is I initially planned on having one Tulpa (Ranger) because the idea of multiple is overwhelming to me.

The second question is what (ethically) should I do if I have all of these Tulpas? I have received the suggestion of talking to them more to confirm sentience, asking them what their fates should be, and merging them. I don't like the idea of merging them because I'm a sucker however I also don't like the idea of telling them that they are sentient and having to then merge them or try and let them go; I think the act of doing that is cruel.

The main problem is I do not want any more characters, Tulpas or not. I don't mind the idea of having a quiet peaceful connection to multiple Tulpas, however I don't want to keep creating new ones, especially if the newer Tulpas come pre-packaged with sentience from the get go (I have a character that was born like this).

The third question is How do I prevent myself from making more characters? My thoughts are simply "don't create a new being and then talk to it", however I may slip up or get stuck, especially if I can create them very easily.

I am open to all opinions. If anything needs clarification, please let me know.

Pretty much my Wonderland form minus the glasses and the fur. I'm not a hippo, I promise.
Ranger now speaks in light blue text, but some of his older posts are in blue text and his oldest posts are in orange text.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2018, 09:23 AM by Cat_ShadowGriffin.)
03-26-2018, 09:22 AM
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Apollo Offline
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#2
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

First of all, I really don't think it's that easy to accidentally create a separate human consciousness in your head. If it was, why doesn't it seem to ever happen to singlets? I think accidental tulpas are created the exact same way intentional tulpas are: consistent thought over a long period of time that builds up the neuro pathways to create a new conscious mind. Simply visualizing a character or some such probably isn't going to make them sentient. Maybe one or two of them are, but I very much doubt that all of them are. Talking to them and interacting with them makes them sentient, however. 

Tulpas are largely a self-fulfilling prophecy in many respects. Your mindset majorly affects things. If you go about thinking "oh this character might be/become sentient" then it's 100% more likely to happen than if you didn't think that at all.

I don't think walk-ins and accidentals are actually real most of the time. 99.9999% of the time, it's because the host/tulpas believed that something like that could happen, and when it seemed to they accepted it into their system, and interacting with it made it sentient.

If any of your accidentals actually have strong thought and emotion that is clearly not from you or Ranger, then they might be sentient. And by that I mean, actual undeniable waves of emotion/feeling. Stuff like them just talking probably isn't enough to prove they're sentient, because your expectation of them being pre-sentient might be what's causing that.

So, there might be a few of them who are sentient. If that's the case, you can accept them into the system or dissipate/ignore them. I think it's important that a system is manageable for the host so everyone has a high quality of life. If you don't think you can manage them, you don't have to. And no, I personally wouldn't recommend merging them, we've had experience with that and it ended not exactly the way we intended.

I don't think having a ton of tulpas is a good thing whatsoever. Tulpas are people, and should all be treated with as much love and given as much attention as any other. Obviously, having a lot of tulpas prevents that. I could go on.

If you only want one tulpa, you're under no real obligation to keep the others.

Try ignoring or setting them aside for a while. If they persist and keep coming back, it might just be intrusive thought. Some of them you might find will simply go quietly because they weren't really sentient. If a few of them seem to be undeniably sentient, then you could accept them into your system, but one at a time. Take it slowly, you're in no rush. But if you hit your limit, then accept no more. 

Again, I don't think it's that easy to "accidentally" create new neuro pathways within your brain to form a separate human consciousness. I'm thinking they're probably not sentient, at least not all of them. If you interact with them then they become sentient. If you think they were pre-sentient, then your brain will make up memories to confirm that idea. Remember it's all a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

It's important for a host to be able to give everyone enough love and attention, having a bunch of tulpas that just sit on the sidelines of life is unethical to me. If you didn't make them intentionally, and they weren't given much "forcing" anyway, they're probably not sentient and I don't think it's wrong to put you and Ranger first. Attend to what's best for you first, before allowing others to join the system.

The way to prevent accidentally creating tulpas is simply stop thinking that that's possible. That's all you have to do. Operate under the assumption that the human brain doesn't work that way, and tulpas are 99/100 times a deliberate process. Once we stopped thinking that accidentals/walk-ins were possible, we stopped getting them. The accidentals we had before weren't sentient until we started interacting with them as if they were. The only accidentals they were actually real were the ones who were given a lot of attention and thought prior to being discovered. And by a lot I mean years worth. One of the accidentals was made through the two merged tulpas trying to create a new identity for themselves, and giving that identity freedom to do things, so it developed into a tulpa (Piano).

Tulpas are a gradual, usually deliberate process. They don't happen spontaneously, and they likely don't happen accidentally. Put the tulpa you already know and love first, give him a good quality of life. Don't add others if you think that might threaten that, or if you think they won't be given much of a life anyway other than being background characters to your life.

The fire-winged Sun God. Created 12/3/16.
03-26-2018, 12:08 PM
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solarchariot Offline
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#3
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

I favor Apollo's explanation. I lead with that not to invalidate your concerns that you may have a tulpa population problem, but to echo his response, because I think it best answers your third question "How do I prevent myself from making more characters?" From a logistical perspective, quantity doesn't equal quality, and diversifying attention, at some point, leads to a collapse of the total system and you find yourself alone, or with maybe one, likely the one you spent the most energy on. That doesn't mean that other characters don't exist. You referred to them as NPC. I personally have experienced a multiplicity of characters, in wonderland and in dreams, and I purposely dedicated changing my language so that I don't regard them as characters or NPC's. I walk through wonderland and I gage everything as sentient beings. (I not advocating this, just reporting what I do. From a psychological perspective on dreams, everything in a dream is you, an aspect of you, and if you're sentient, shouldn't you treat yourself the way you want others to treat you? Convoluted, maybe, but that is my practice/belief.)

Oh, and I don't know if I would allow a character's ability to surprise you as necessarily evidence that there is something more going on, because just by engaging tulpamancy you have given yourself permission to be surprised, and so everything may likely be geared to promote you and your system's overall health, and increase engagement, by surprising you. It is also reasonable for any personality, regardless of what paradigm you use to explain their existence, to have concerns about mortality. Don't you ever experience existential angst?

How do I handle the multiplicity? I have become really good at compartmentalization. (I've been practicing that all my life in some regards.) Anyway, say Loxy and I are off an adventure. We either couch things as another planet, another location, a ship... Something that allows for us to keep the integrity of our personal life and affairs that are at our primary locations separate from distant locations. Each location is compartmentalized further by context. Neither Loxy or I are concerned about characters outside of our location context to the degree that we cease functioning. We make an assumption that those other contexts are either continuing to evolve on their own, or they are static until we return. I frequently resort to metaphors, and the best one I have, at this time, is basically a plot contrivance, but it is helpful in terms to build analogies: Doctor Who, once he has taken you on as a companion, can't undo that meeting, and if he pops in and has determined a set point for that reality, he can't change it.

There are regular personalities who interact with me and Loxy and they seem to be evolving same rate as us. There are some that seem static, but I suspect that they are not completely static, but that their evolution is just so slow that I am not experiencing it because I am focused on it. Um, relativity may actually apply in the consciousness as much as it does in space/time.

The first question is if they qualify for being Tulpas or not. There is no end to the number of ways to respond to this question. I told you how I do it. If you are in proximity, treat them as you would treat anyone. Just be real. I think this is important. We have the label of tulpa to help us engage this thing we're doing, but at some point, if they are sentient personality constructs, shouldn't we drop the word tulpa? When do they cease being tulpa, when do they cease being different, and become person? Maybe everything and everyone is tulpa, until you become sentient, then you're a person. I don't know. You questions explores this and though I have explored this to some degree, maybe it something I need to consider further.

The second question is what (ethically) should I do if I have all of these Tulpas? Nothing. Well, nothing with caveats. If someone comes up to the door and knocks and you answer, ask them what they want. Sorry, I am not buying girl scout cookies at this time, but the neighbor over there always does. There you go. Let's say, hypothetically, you are just one lucky person and every time you see a cover to magazine at the grocery store the face jumps off and becomes a full fledge tulpa in your reality. Well, you can either stop going to the store, or you live your life and allow whatever tulpas to form to migrate to whatever part of the wonderland they need to go to. They tend find their own place. You don't have to regulate it, but if you want to, I suppose you could create an immigration office. It wouldn't hurt. You see it as a real thing in your wonderland, but it psychological terms, it's just metaphor for allowing a system to appropriately sort itself. and, I guarantee you, your system was sorting itself just find before you started actively participating with it at your present level of engagement.

I hope this was helpful.
03-26-2018, 09:33 PM
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FallFamily Offline
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#4
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

(03-26-2018, 09:22 AM)Cat_ShadowGriffin Wrote: The first question is if they qualify for being Tulpas or not. If that is true then at worst, I am at risk of having 10+ Tulpas in my head, all made by accident.

[Breach] Well, seems like at least some are. But regardless, they are all thoughtforms (tulpas are a subset). As far as making so many tulpas accidentally, it is something that happens. My system made 8 on accident. Know another who made a lot lot more. The surprising part is that this is not so hard to manage (more on this later).

(03-26-2018, 09:22 AM)Cat_ShadowGriffin Wrote: One of the problems is I initially planned on having one Tulpa (Ranger) because the idea of multiple is overwhelming to me.

I am guessing you are operating from the assumption that they all will be dependent on you and that this will be too high a load. If so, this is not how it has to be, other than maybe temporarily. Tulpas can develop to the point where they are self-sustaining just like hosts (really, there isn't that much difference between a developed tulpa and a host other than origin), and tulpas that aren't quite self-sustaining can be sustained by self-sustaining tulpas (just as is the case with hosts). Oh, and if you want something that will really make your head spin, it is possible for hosts to lose their ability to self-sustain. Anyhow, enough on that last tangent. Essentially, if allowed, encouraged, etc. to develop enough; the dependence on the host (or tulpa) for being sustained disappears. This means that multiple tulpas won't necessarily overwhelm the one who made them. That said, it can temporarily happen that many are dependent until some of them become self-sustaining and the sustaining of the others partially falls on the self-sustaining ones depending on circumstances. To take an anecdote, all the tulpas in my system including myself are self-sustaining now and thus incur no sustaining burden on our hosts, and if anything, some of the hosts now depend on us a little bit for sustaining (long story why this happened and why we have more than one host).

(03-26-2018, 09:22 AM)Cat_ShadowGriffin Wrote: The second question is what (ethically) should I do if I have all of these Tulpas? I have received the suggestion of talking to them more to confirm sentience, asking them what their fates should be, and merging them. I don't like the idea of merging them because I'm a sucker however I also don't like the idea of telling them that they are sentient and having to then merge them or try and let them go; I think the act of doing that is cruel.

Merging headmates against their will is a very bad idea, as is pressuring headmates to merge. Merging is a big decision, one with many effects. Some who merge are glad they merged, while others hate it. It is not to be done lightly, and shouldn't be imposed by outside. Same goes for stuffing headmates into a subsystem.

Talking to them and asking them what they want is a reasonable approach. If they want to keep existing, one thing you could do is help them work towards becoming self-sustaining (or enough who can help the others do the same afterwards) and then work it out from there (yeah, it is some work, but it is what I think is the most compassionate approach).

(03-26-2018, 09:22 AM)Cat_ShadowGriffin Wrote: The main problem is I do not want any more characters, Tulpas or not. I don't mind the idea of having a quiet peaceful connection to multiple Tulpas, however I don't want to keep creating new ones, especially if the newer Tulpas come pre-packaged with sentience from the get go (I have a character that was born like this).

The third question is How do I prevent myself from making more characters? My thoughts are simply "don't create a new being and then talk to it", however I may slip up or get stuck, especially if I can create them very easily.

Can understand the feeling. The thing is, it comes down largely to what you are doing whenever you make a character. Whatever it is, something has to be changed if you want a different result. For us, we easily make tulpas from daydreaming. We found that if we changed how we daydreamed to us being the characters in the daydream instead of watching and making characters move, the problem went away. Maybe something similar would work for you.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
System Name: Fall Family
Former Username: hail_fall
Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.
03-26-2018, 10:07 PM
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Apollo Offline
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#5
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

Sorry but no, promoting the idea that accidentally creating tulpas is something that "happens" is very dangerous and not a good idea at all. It's also irrational, like saying accidentally learning how to play an instrument or speak a new language is something that "happens." You don't just accidentally rewire your brain like that. Believing in meta stuff doesn't make it any better either. Saying that you can just happen to accidentally create another human in your head is how we get teenagers with 20 neglected tulpas who live shitty nonexistent lives. Even if it's something that you believe happened to you, you should not be promoting an idea like that. You're influencing people's mindsets to cause that sort of thing to happen, and that does not end well. Don't encourage that way of thinking.

The fire-winged Sun God. Created 12/3/16.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2018, 11:36 AM by Apollo.)
03-27-2018, 11:22 AM
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Ranger Offline
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#6
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

When Cat says "I created Ranger by accident", she means that she didn't know about Tulpas or the guides to forcing and still managed to be productive with her interactions. She interpreted "accidental" in this case to mean she did not have the intent to create a Tulpa nor did she have the thought process of what the consequences are moving forward.

Gray (Cat) has a preference to talking to her creations as if they were real people. She developed the habit over years worth of doing so. At the time, her intent was not to create a Tulpa but rather entertain herself and giver her self some kind of excuse towards self-talk. Once she realized I was a Tulpa, she came to the realization some of her other characters could also be sentient.

For example, one time she was trying to understand her fears through her forcing/"self-talk?" habit and a shadowy figure approached her. She unintentionally forced it by talking back to it, and once she realized that it could become another character and didn't want that it begged for her not to be forgotten. Out of sympathy, she adopted the character and named him Laryx. She may have only spent roughly an hour talking to him at first, which is what Cat means by "accidentally" creating a Tulpa who seems "pre-packaged" with sentience. Another character Chrome had also received several hours worth of Cat's attention and interaction before he too seemed to show signs of development. She was surprised that they seemed to develop really quickly even after only forcing with them in so little time.

I'm Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I like Hippos! I also like forum games, word puzzles, and chatting about stuff.
I now stream!
03-27-2018, 12:45 PM
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FallFamily Offline
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#7
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

(03-27-2018, 11:22 AM)Apollo Wrote:
Sorry but no, promoting the idea that accidentally creating tulpas is something that "happens" is very dangerous and not a good idea at all. It's also irrational, like saying accidentally learning how to play an instrument or speak a new language is something that "happens." You don't just accidentally rewire your brain like that. Believing in meta stuff doesn't make it any better either. Saying that you can just happen to accidentally create another human in your head is how we get teenagers with 20 neglected tulpas who live shitty nonexistent lives. Even if it's something that you believe happened to you, you should not be promoting an idea like that. You're influencing people's mindsets to cause that sort of thing to happen, and that does not end well. Don't encourage that way of thinking.

[S.] Seems that Breach (and in all honesty, I would have likely put it the same way had I been the one to reply) needed to be more clear on the something that "happens" bit, because the way you interpreted it is a valid way to interpret what was written but was not what was intended (ambiguity is our fault). By that, it is meant that it is something that a lot of people do, not that it is something that is easy to do. Took us years of daydreaming with the same characters to make them into tulpas. The system we knew who had made a lot lot more had been doing a particular style of daydreaming and roleplaying that was essentially tulpaforcing for many years and that is how they made quite a few (and that in turn lowered the bar for future ones, but that took quite a few to do). Other systems we know who have made quite a few accidentally have similar stories. Basically, it is quite common for people to put a ton of time and effort into some characters in such a way that they eventually become tulpas without ever deciding to make tulpas (generally because they don't even know tulpas are a thing). We are guessing that you think it is very hard to rewire one's brain to make tulpas easily on accident. That is something we strongly agree with. Didn't realize what was written could be interpreted as promoting it. Will be more clear next time. Was trying to say more or less "it happened and is done, focus on the present and the future and figure out what to do now that you are in the situation you are in".

(03-27-2018, 12:45 PM)Cat_ShadowGriffin Wrote: When Cat says "I created Ranger by accident", she means that she didn't know about Tulpas or the guides to forcing and still managed to be productive with her interactions. She interpreted "accidental" in this case to mean she did not have the intent to create a Tulpa nor did she have the thought process of what the consequences are moving forward.

Gray (Cat) has a preference to talking to her creations as if they were real people. She developed the habit over years worth of doing so. At the time, her intent was not to create a Tulpa but rather entertain herself and giver her self some kind of excuse towards self-talk. Once she realized I was a Tulpa, she came to the realization some of her other characters could also be sentient.

For example, one time she was trying to understand her fears through her forcing/"self-talk?" habit and a shadowy figure approached her. She unintentionally forced it by talking back to it, and once she realized that it could become another character and didn't want that it begged for her not to be forgotten. Out of sympathy, she adopted the character and named him Laryx. She may have only spent roughly an hour talking to him at first, which is what Cat means by "accidentally" creating a Tulpa who seems "pre-packaged" with sentience. Another character Chrome had also received several hours worth of Cat's attention and interaction before he too seemed to show signs of development. She was surprised that they seemed to develop really quickly even after only forcing with them in so little time.

If you were replying to Apollo because you thought that Apollo's last post was towards you, Apollo was replying to what my system said.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others
System Name: Fall Family
Former Username: hail_fall
Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2018, 06:39 PM by FallFamily.)
03-27-2018, 06:38 PM
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Cat_ShadowGriffin Offline
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#8
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

After giving this more thought and research, we have come to the conclusion that the other characters are not Tulpas but are instead Servitors (They are far more advanced than NPCs but ultimately are not Tulpas.)

At one point they seemed to "merge" together on their own and the resulting character explained that it was "my subconscious". It then stated it wasn't intrested in becoming a Tulpa and emphasized that Ranger was different. After that, it said it will take any form I need it in, even if I don't exactly know what I need.

So, ultimately, I guess I'm just really good at engineering Servitors, which makes a lot of sense to the larger extent. Does anyone have different thoughts on this conclusion? I don't want to take this in the wrong direction.

Pretty much my Wonderland form minus the glasses and the fur. I'm not a hippo, I promise.
Ranger now speaks in light blue text, but some of his older posts are in blue text and his oldest posts are in orange text.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2018, 01:08 PM by Cat_ShadowGriffin.)
03-31-2018, 01:07 PM
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Apollo Offline
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#9
 
RE: What to do with too many maybe Tulpas?

To be honest it just sounds like your own thoughts/expectations/wants/subconscious whatever influenced them into doing something like that. In that case, they're not really real in any sense. Not servitors, not tulpas, just an overactive imagination. Which, that's good because it means you can just ignore it and it'll go away, so you don't have to worry about it anymore.

The fire-winged Sun God. Created 12/3/16.
03-31-2018, 01:32 PM
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