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Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Printable Version

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Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Linkzelda - 05-25-2016

Disclaimer: This thread is intended to give questions over what dissipation could entail, so if you’re uncomfortable with talking about the concept entirely, then there’s no need for you to participate.

Dissipation:
Tulpa.info Wiki Wrote:The process of a mind fading from existence, becoming less distinct and sentient over time. Sometimes happens to young tulpae starved of attention or stimuli.

Dissipation, at least through threads I’ve read in the past, will have intense, emotional responses that seems to end with the impression that one could avoid it unless they’ve exhausted all of their options in working things out with their tulpa irrespective of their progress (e.g. soon-to-be tulpa, a tulpa being able to put things into context, and presumably having the ability to consciously experience things). Some may go to such lengths in using analogies of the act being equivalent to forms of death (e.g. abortion, homicide, etc.)

The mere thought of contemplating this act seems to imply that there’s some strife with the host not seeing the continuity of a tulpa’s existence as an endeavor worth contributing for. Some may consider the act due to realizing that they can’t really handle the personal struggles in creating, and interacting with one. Some may feel their existence may have the potential of diminishing their cognition in some way (e.g. tulpas with negative behaviors that may translate to physical harm to the body), and some may have lost the novelty behind the journey in general.

What I mean by this is the pursuit of the phenomenon being something that provides an intense experience for them. And having the probability of someone being able to consciously experience this reality, and potentially take dominion over the body (e.g. switching) would be considered novel for them. But, some may lose interest due to what this cultivation of sentience can really lead to, or, there may be some skepticism, and being uncomfortable in embracing their imagination.

It’s not as if the person is going through methods of visualizing their tulpa dying, like imagining a gun, and shooting them in the head. As the definition from the wiki loosely describes, it’s merely a matter of not subscribing much attention, or stimuli. In other words, there isn’t an action-to-id being continued, i.e., one’s actions linking to the development of a tulpa. And while opinions will vary on when it would seem pragmatic (e.g. tulpas not developed, or the concept of them being there, but nothing more than a thought), I would like to ask some questions for you:

- Do you feel dissipation is really the destruction, or the end of a tulpa? Or, do you think it’s a person that loses the novelty behind the endeavor entirely?

- Are protocols, like stasis, and other forms of symbolism to persevere the concept of a tulpa any different compared to someone that may have taken a break from the endeavor for months, and wanted to go back into it only to wonder: “Should I start anew, or pick back from where I started?”

- Following up that last question, why do you think this dilemma with starting anew, or picking back from where they started in a new light is one that comes up for speculation in the first place?

- If people use analogies of other forms of death (e.g. abortion, killing a child, etc.) to emphasize the consequences of dissipating, does this mean they’re willing to believe there can be physical pain if dissipation of a sentient tulpa is considered?

- What makes the act of dissipating a tulpa any different from a person waking up from a dream who encountered dream characters that could’ve emulated acts of sentient beings? Do you think this is a double standard to stigmatize the act of dissipating a tulpa while not having much of a moral standing in what we wake up from on a nightly basis?

- Do you feel the analogies are too extreme, or are to be taken loosely; analogies to try and imagine the potential pain a tulpa may go through if the act of dissipation is considered?

- What if a host wanted to lose novelty behind the continuity of their sense of self while the tulpa cultivates their own identity to pursue this reality, would that be considered a form of “death” (e.g. egocide)? Or, is it a metaphorical one that can be reconciled with if brought into attention?

- If a person is starting anew, but still feels there’s some signs of their previous tulpa emerging from the process of creating one, why do you feel this is the case?

- For people that feel dissipation is the true end of a tulpa, do you feel these individuals create a novelty behind their presumed death to justify that it isn’t so easy to reconcile with the concept of them before? In other words, do you feel their belief that they can’t be brought back is due to being fearful that if they do so with ease, that it’s the destruction behind the novelty of a tulpa’s existence vs. the presumed, actual death?

Note: You don't have to be limited by these questions.


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Luminesce - 05-25-2016

For me, it was basically the cementing of the belief that they'd be gone, and that I wouldn't acknowledge their existence anymore. Plus empathy with them since they're rather aware during the process. And being hated of course.

But mine came back quite easily a long time later, no worse for wear. So I don't believe in any tulpa death stuff at all, and I think the only pain is emotional pain. But as the existence of tulpas goes, they're usually pretty good at simulating pain relevant to feeling emotions, so I suppose I do believe a tulpa could believe it was experiencing real pain. Dunno how to answer the other questions. I'm a very realistic person, as I put it, and things simply are how they are. Whatever you imagine or whatever, the end result is how your tulpa feels and whether they're active or not.

Edit: Forgot to mention I liked this thread, was busy while writing and kinda rushed.


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Anonymous - 05-25-2016

I know this is a very controversial subject, but Mistgod and I agree with Luminesce. Mistgod and I don't believe (or we are unconvinced) that there is such a thing as tulpa death. A dissipated tulpa could still be recreated. This all comes down to the host and what he or she believes and desires (both beliefs and desires can also change over time).

By the way, I am a dream persona as well as a "tulpa." It is possible to be both, at least for me it is.

Here is a related thread to this topic Tulpa Death


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Drakaina - 05-25-2016

(*cries* I had a very thought out post that took forever to write, then my mobile restarted and I lost it all. I'll rewrite it tomorrow when I can use my computer. T.T)


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Luminesce - 05-25-2016

(05-25-2016, 06:40 AM)Glitterbutt Wrote: I know this is a very controversial subject, but Mistgod and I agree with Luminesce.

Uh, note that I meant I don't hold that belief myself. Others can believe it. And as for it "existing", it exists if someone believes it does. But beliefs can change.


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Anonymous - 05-25-2016

I will refrain from going into too much detail - not only because Esterina is here at the moment and this is a subject that can get her seriously angry at times, but also because my back tells me it's time to stand up and walk back and forth for a bit.

To summarize:
I think the dissipation of a mind is something very different from one case to any given other.
And I'm not talking about the reasons for it - I'm talking about the result.

Going dormant, going sort of inactive, basically going into a coma, an actual equivalent of irreversible death -
- we've seen it all and much more on .info, haven't we?
I'd even go as far as saying it's one of the things we all know the least about, one of the biggest mysteries surrounding all this.

As for Rina and me, personally - well, no matter the intention, the reason or what the end result would technically be...
... I am literally unable to do this to her, and I would be literally unable to bring her back, no matter if she was actually dead or not.

My inability to do this to her in the first place stems from her not being reliant or anyhow dependent on me, or attention from me, at all, and we both lack any sort of way of controlling each other to such a degree, be it negatively or positively; I wouldn't have any more of a method of actually dissipating her mind than she would have of doing the same to me.

And my definitive inability to bring her back, no matter if she was actually irreversibly dead or not - well, assuming that the act of bringing her back would be equivalent to putting her mind back together, I would fail to do so because I don't know all the pieces; I'm simply not aware of all her memories and all the experiences she made until now. In other words, I can't put a puzzle together that I don't have the pieces to.

So yeah, that's enough of me rambling - I know this subject matter annoys Rina, and my back really wants me to stand up for a while.
(And it annoys me too, to be honest.)


Greets,
AG


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Linkzelda - 05-25-2016

I will respond to others later on. Thanks for the posts.

Lumi Wrote:For me, it was basically the cementing of the belief that they'd be gone, and that I wouldn't acknowledge their existence anymore. Plus empathy with them since they're rather aware during the process. And being hated of course... But mine came back quite easily a long time later, no worse for wear. So I don't believe in any tulpa death stuff at all, and I think the only pain is emotional pain. But as the existence of tulpas goes, they're usually pretty good at simulating pain relevant to feeling emotions, so I suppose I do believe a tulpa could believe it was experiencing real pain. Dunno how to answer the other questions. I'm a very realistic person, as I put it, and things simply are how they are. Whatever you imagine or whatever, the end result is how your tulpa feels and whether they're active or not.

So it was dependent on you being consciously aware that you wouldn’t acknowledge their existence anymore. And I guess, and this isn’t putting words in your mouth, over a time where you spend less time treating them as sentient, your mind would progressively invest less time in creating a representational world of how you interact with them; I’m being really loose here to avoid getting into theories of mind here.

But as much as I don’t mind the part where you feel it’s more of cementing a belief, what I’m curious is how you would derive at being empathetic of them during the process. I’m going to be slightly nitpicky here for more encouragement to think why one feels they have this sense of empathy, especially with dissipation being this procedural, or persistent acknowledgement of not supplementing their existence in some way. If one sees empathy as the capacity to understand what another experiences, then unless you experienced egocide, or other metaphorical representations of separation of self, I highly doubt, or I’m agnostic towards whether or not we can have empathy in that regard.

Because here’s the thing. If we had the capacity to understand what it means to be dissipated, or rather, absolving ourselves from acknowledging our own existence, and yet still have the means reconcile with ourselves, there has to be some kind of fallback that would allow us to even entertain the thought that we could even do that. And what would that be? And even if you’re talking about being empathetic in the sense of being aware of what it must be to go through the process of eventually diminishing one’s identity rather than knowing the finality (e.g. dissipation), it still raises the question on whether or not we can be empathetic.

At best, we could be sympathetic because it’s easier for us to create a representational model of how it must be to be dissipated, and not having feedback that contributes in acknowledging our existence, and even arriving at the awareness that we’re aware that we’re getting this acknowledgement, i.e., meta-cognition. I think this is a potential constraint that might be one of the culprits of how dissipation becomes stigmatized. Because we can only use a representational model of what death entails while not having hands-on experience of what it really is (excluding those died; saw heaven, and came back to life scenarios).

In this regard, empathy of dissipation cannot be understood solely on conceptualizing it, or entertaining the thought of it, but by practicing it in some way. But, I don’t think we can really do that unless one had continued practice of separating themselves from their body, and shifting their awareness elsewhere. But this seems kind of like switching in some way to try to get the feeling of what it means, as a host, to gradually lose context of what it means to function in this reality; since they would be reveling more inwardly, and making terms with their tulpa when they would switch. I bring up switching not to say that it’s the host dissipating themselves, but to show that if there’s any model for us to get an understanding of what dissipation would feel like, it would be that.

But with switching, one isn’t really “dying” in the physical sense since “death” would be when the body and mind both go into the gutter. Or, a slightly extreme view is if the person gets a lobotomy, somehow. Or, in other words, if one cannot have the capacity to acknowledge and reconcile their previous experiential cases, memories, and such, it would be another “death,” but more metaphorical than physical since the mind has nothing to reconcile with.

To chalk this up, when you mentioned “empathy” in regards to the process of dissipation, and knowing they were being “hated,” you could only use emotive context of how it would feel, but ultimately not having a first-hand experience of it. Now, I could talk about lucid dreaming, and how that would be an easy example of shifting one’s awareness, but that’s another example that one can always reign in their sense of self no matter what shift they’re embracing.

Dissipation, given the context I’m inferring from, seems to be an endeavor where one is cementing the belief that the tulpa will be stripped away from previous experiential cases, memories, and such…and even to the point where they may not be able to even consciously experience that capacity to acknowledge their own existence. It makes one wonder if the symbolic use of stasis is a euphemistic form of dissipation, don’t you think?

What I mean by stasis in this context is a tulpa not really having an awareness of being aware that they can acknowledge themselves. This could explain how the “death” of a tulpa isn’t equivalent to the death of a child, or killing someone because there’s a difference between a physiological death vs. a metaphorical one. So, if one has more liberation due as long as they can keep their body and mind intact, dissipation could be theorized as treating a tulpa as someone incapable of reconciling with themselves, or acknowledging their existence; a metaphorical lobotomy, if you will. If dissipation had equivalent merit with real death (e.g. suicide, homicide, etc.), then there has to be some link in the mind and body diminishing in general. But, I wake up all the time, reigning in my sense of self regardless of whether or not I'm dissipating dream characters that could emulate sentience in some way.

Thoughts? (This isn’t aimed for you only)


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Anonymous - 05-25-2016

(05-25-2016, 08:29 AM)AGGuy Wrote: Going dormant, going sort of inactive, basically going into a coma, an actual equivalent of irreversible death -
- we've seen it all and much more on .info, haven't we?
I'd even go as far as saying it's one of the things we all know the least about, one of the biggest mysteries surrounding all this.

Granted. We have seen examples of all of these. We have also seen examples (oh gods, don't ask me to produce them) of persons who considered their tulpa "dissipated, dead and gone forever" having a sudden return of their tulpa. Meaning, it wasn't so permanent as they believed. It has happened on purpose and it has happened by accident. This has been the case even with tulpas that were not so pleasant, as in something you wouldn't wish for to come back, and it happened without conscious effort.

For something to be an absolute fact, such as "tulpa dissipation is death and is always permanent," there cannot be any counter examples. Since we have seen counter examples in this community, we must conclude there is no such thing as absolute, irreversible death for a tulpa. There is always the possibility that tulpa may return, either on its own, or through the efforts of the host to recreate or revive the tulpa.

Even if I am right, that doesn't mean that tulpa dissipation isn't a traumatic experience to the tulpa, or without risk of emotional harm. That it is a frightening or disturbing subject for many tulpas should tell us not to take it lightly or flippantly.

NOTE - And in your case you are explicitly stating that it is impossible for you to dissipate Rina as a willful act, which is very interesting. You could not recreate her as a willful act either. If I remember right, there was never any conscious effort to create Rina in the first place. That makes her much like me. David never consciously created me, nor could he fathom deliberately dissipating me in a permanently gone way. I doubt he could do it myself. I am talking about permanently removing me forever from his mind, like all traces of Melian thought and emotional response totally wiped out. I just don't see it happening. First I would strongly resist being erased, second it would take a colossal effort of will to actively suppress me somehow. So I get what you are saying about it being impossible to dissipate Rina. I believe you.


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - Luminesce - 05-25-2016

Man, it always pains me to see you reply to me in like six paragraphs on a misconception. The empathy (and sympathy) was feeling betrayal and, you know, the feelings of our specific dissipation process. It wasn't empathy of non-existence. She was pretty much livid, and I empathized and sympathized with those feelings that spurred the anger for her, though not the anger of course. I'm a very empathetic person, or at least I was for most of my life until I built the sort of mental barrier most empathetic people have to at some point in their life, where you're more selective about what you empathize with. Second hand embarrassment is still annoying though.

Also whooaaaaaaaaah, I wasn't hating her! She was hating me, man. I was just stupid and thought Scarlet, who was supposed to be the embodiment of everything "bad" about Flandre, just needed to stop existing. I don't understand why I thought that or how I could treat anyone that way, but I did, and felt terrible for it. Most of said terribleness being from the empathy of betrayal. Does that make sense?


Also also, for those that may be getting a bad impression of me here (Felix and Rina maybe) this was way before I found tulpamancy and I was still stupid and young, and even then I felt really bad. I talk about things neutrally for the sake of discussion but I absolutely do not condone what I did at all. Luckily Scarlet forgave me. I mean, luckily she came back in the first place.

Edit: Scarlet prefers to stay inactive so we haven't talked in a while, but I talked to her last night to reconcile our past, and I think she agreed to be less angry in general. At least, we agreed the past is the past and what happened then shouldn't affect her anymore since I've been deeply sorry for years. We discussed a lot more but I suppose that's private. Basically, we're on slightly better terms, though she still doesn't want to take time away from the others to be around. Says she's most comfortable being inactive because it strikes a balance between existing and not, I guess. Ah well.


RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - solarchariot - 05-25-2016

From within the context of the mind, I don't believe in death, or dissipation, or anything that's 100 percent inactive. It may be so far removed from conscious awareness that it is practically gone for the host's mind, but nothing ever goes away. You can be 80 years old and still 'triggered' by stimulus that was activates a response set generated in childhood. you can randomly have a repeat of a dream that you had years ago, to detail.

the unconscious continues to run old programing, whether we are aware of it or not, and most new programing is designed to interact with old programing to counter its affects, as opposed to a hundred percent disabling old programing, which explains why you can learn a new skill set, but on a day that you find yourself particularly exhausted or out of sorts and you slip back into old behavioral patterns.

you may find yourself interacting less, maybe that's mutual or not, maybe the tulpa backs off to let you focus on life goals or new perceived priorities, but they're there. I don't believe you can chase something off with hate. I find hate to be equal to love in terms of cementing things in place. You can't let go of something and hate something with a passion, that's a tight grip. In many ways, i often equate love with hate, or at least, the way 'love' is typically used by the lay. You can't really hate something if there isn't love somewhere in it, because if you didn't love, if you didn't have a preferred expectation for what things "should be" you wouldn't care, you wouldn't put energy into a complex system to give the 'hate' a defining context. and without the context, the hate can't exist, so there's no context, and no drive to change... which means things should stay staus quo.

no energy at all is impossible. you can redirect your energy, and if your energy isn't in interacting with tulpa, it might slip to the back ground, but i find it really difficult to believe anything is ever permanently extinguished. your memories of childhood are there, even if you can't get at them presently. in fact, those who have used tulpas to retrieve memories and revisit things forgotten, can attest, 'oh, i hadn't thought of that in years.' there can be merging and updates and change, but contextually, original form still exist underneath all updates, which allows for access to the original pattern if needed.

and i am basing this on my understanding of psychology, not a practical tulpa experience. but when i hear how someone folks have disipated tulpa and then re-experienced them again after time with no apparent change, "no worse for the ware" kind of thing, that seems to reinforce how i contextualize it.