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Are Tulpas really so accepting?


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I used to think so, but I'm not so sure anymore.

 

I love my Tulpas to death. I really do. So it hurts when they say rude things about my gender identity.

 

Gamzee was around back when I still identified as female. When I came out to him as non-binary, he was reluctantly accepting. I was okay with him calling me a girl for a few months after that, just to give him time to adjust, but after a while he wouldn't stop and when I confronted him ("Hey, my name is Ashton, I'm not a girl anymore, kay?") he got defensive. He even started crying. We've fought over it plenty of times in the past. He's told me that we would get along perfectly if I could just ""be a girl again"". He's told me he would love me more if I still identified with my birth gender. I could ignore all of this from him, but I've noticed Quartz does this too.

 

Speaking of Quartz... he threatened to leave because of my gender. I don't understand this at all. He was created after I started identifying as non-binary, so why is he so reluctant to accept me? It really hurts to be told day after day by the people who supposedly love me more than anyone "we'd love you more if you were a girl." Quartz has even taken steps to ensure that I ID with my birth gender, against my consent. He made me feel dysphoric about wanting to dress as a guy (this is pretty hard to explain, honestly, but the idea of wearing my binder made me stress out to the point of having a panic attack.) I went into my mind and "fixed" this, but I have no guarantee he won't do it again.

 

Our system has a group of rules, and we all start out at zero points, but can get up to seventy-two. Quartz already has ten points for another past instance of emotional manipulation, and for this infraction I should add another ten, but I'm still feeling hesitant. 72 points and he is out of our system for good. I don't want that. I need him.

 

My other system members (4 alters and another Tulpa) are completely okay with my gender identity. My alters have rarely harassed me over it (Carson has once or twice, and Triple rarely talks anymore...) and my other Tulpa, Obsidian, is absolutely accepting. (They are also non-binary, so what would I expect? Besides, they're just a little kid, of course they're gonna be more chill.

 

I've already tried "changing" my gender for them. For Gamzee it lasted about a week and a half (and let me tell you, that was one of the most upsetting weeks of my life.) For Quartz... well, he only brought up his hatred for my gender a few days ago. He yelled at me and again brought up "if only you were a girl." I've already tried changing my gender for the people I love in the past. I once was infatuated with one of my lesbian friends and tried to be a girl for her. (Again, most miserable weeks of my life.) This is a cycle that just keeps going on, and it is burned into my mind by now that everything would be better "if only I was a girl."

 

Neither of my Tulpas have explained their hatred for my gender, but if I had to guess, I feel like for Gamzee it's because he dislikes change. When he was born, I was a girl, and he was attached to me- so maybe when my gender changed, he felt like I was changing on him, too. That I wouldn't be the same person anymore. For Quartz; my best guess at this point is that it's because he identifies as straight, and since he likes me, it makes him confused about his orientation. I also feel like since I based him after an adult, that might be why he is so transphobic.

 

Another theory I have is that maybe my Tulpas have absorbed my own self-hatred. I am not okay with the fact that I am trans, and I am especially not okay with my gender specifically. I get a lot of hate thrown at me in the real world, and I've been internalizing it all these years; perhaps my Tulpas are just spouting that hatred right back at me? It's just a guess.

 

I love my Tulpas so much. I would never dream of hurting them. But this constant onslaught of "if only you were a girl" is going to drive me mad. I don't feel like I can change my gender identity; every time I've tried, I've been absolutely miserable. My mental health is already in a poor state, especially because I have no access to therapy. Honestly, seeing this kind of raw hate from the people I trust most is making me deteriorate even faster than I was before.

 

I wish I could change for them. I want to. At the very least, so they won't keep saying these awful things. I don't know how to change it, though. I used to think my Tulpas were the most accepting people in the world, but now I'm doubting myself- and them.

 

---

 

Side note, because this is a scientific community: I get it. A lot of you probably don't like transgender people, especially "nonbinary" ones. I don't either!

 

I feel like the reason I became confused about my gender is because of abuse. I have this whole theory mapped out on how it might correlate with my status as transgender. I get that I'm "actually a girl" because I was born one. I get it. I get told that every single day. Please don't reply to this thread to tell me what I already know.

White text- Ash (the host!)

Red text- Quartz!

Purple text- Gamzee!

Blue text- Obsidian!

 

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Well, I usually hear,

"Tulpas are generally accepting of their hosts" and

"Tulpas are their own people."

 

So. There's no rule that states all tulpas have to be accepting, or nice even. There are a lot of rude tulpas, and there are definitely some aggressive ones too. But they are generally accepting. But moreso they are just different people, and different people have different opinions. Different morals and beliefs and such.

 

To be fair, the reason most tulpas are "accepting" is that they live in your mind and therefore understand you and your decisions perfectly, whether or not they agree with them. It may be your indecisive thoughts on the matter that have failed to convince them, but I dunno, I'm not you.

 

Side note, because this is a scientific community: I get it. A lot of you probably don't like transgender people, especially "nonbinary" ones.

 

Nope, don't know anyone here who is discriminatory about that sort of thing. But then, some argue it's not a scientific community. I argue that a scientific community wouldn't discriminate.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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[Tri]

 

@warriortiltheend

 

First off, we want to tell you three things.

 

  1. There is nothing wrong with being transgender and non-binary.
  2. Your headmates should accept that and it is cissexist for them not to.
  3. We support you and your gender.

 

Sadly, headmates (and this includes tulpas) are not universally accepting. They tend to be much more so than random strangers on the street, but emphasis on "tend to be". And lack of acceptance can vary from very mild to severe, just as acceptance can vary from barely to awesome.

 

We are glad your other headmates are accepting.

 

You don't have to try to change your gender for anyone. Your gender is a part of you, and if it is changeable at all, no one has the right to expect you to change it. Nor does anyone have the right to try to change it for you.

 

Your tulpas draw upon your memories and experiences to some extent, so they learned from some of the same things you learned. The same things that have caused you to internalize cissexism and self-hate do have some effect on them. However, they are still responsible for their own words and actions, even if they never learned things right in the first place. It explains and puts into context, but doesn't excuse. This goes for anyone, host or tulpa.

 

As for the "scientific community" bit, the evidence pretty strongly points to the being transgender being an actual real thing that is immutable (unchangeable). We can tell you from our personal experience, as transgender scientists (that is our career), most of the scientific community is pretty accepting, though still sometimes cissexist. If this community is very transphobic, it isn't because of being "scientific".

 

By the way, our body is MAAB but everyone in it is female except our host, Hail, who is non-binary (slightly female of agender specifically).

 

As for the "confused about my gender is because of abuse" part, that idea has been pretty thoroughly busted for singlets. For plurals, if abuse causes splitting, the genders of the splits can sometimes be random which often leads to some of the resulting headmates having a gender that doesn't match with the body's birth sex. But that is a very special case. But more importantly, so what if your gender identity had a specific cause. It doesn't invalidate who you are right now. Some would say that the "you minus ____" would be different (for some _____), but here is the thing, "you minus _____" is not a person who exists. Therefore that argument is baloney.

 

@ Gamzee and Quartz

 

We aren't sure what you are caught up on here. We have one guess we will stab at. Your host has probably always been non-binary. The only thing that is changing here is that the illusion has faded. That is all you are losing - an illusion.

 

One very important thing to keep in mind - you have no right to invalidate someone else's gender, whether they are a headmate of yours or not, a friend or an enemy, etc.

 

But most importantly, it is wrong for you to try to tamper with your host's identity and try to change them to be the gender you want them to be. And deliberately causing someone dysphoria is just wrong. Dysphoria is an absolutely miserable thing, something hard to even wish upon an enemy. Have you experienced it? You two are guys, so if you have controlled the body, you might have had some exposure to it. What did that feel like? Now, consider, your host has been dealing with this for a very very long time. Dysphoria can build with time. Don't use that on someone.

 

Also, how do you know you are guys? Think deeply on this. You live in a FAAB body but are saying that your genders are male. Isn't your host basically saying the same thing, though non-binary in their case.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others

System Name: Fall Family

Former Username: hail_fall

Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.

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First time writing in the forums for a while, but your post made me come out of my ghosting hahaha.

First of all don't worry, it's as Luminesce said, I've been reading in this forum for a while and I can tell there are few to no discriminations here, even less from me since I also identify as the opposite gender (though I normally don't have the courage to let others know, this would be my first time telling someone about it, other than Runa that is).

 

Back to the topic, I also agree on the fact that it could be a matter of indecision since you (sorry if I take it the wrong way) don't seem happy about your situation and your tulpae feel it and show it in their own ways. I think it's good to change for someone you love, but if it means you're not going to be happy, well, what good will it be then?

In my opinion something is not good if only one side is happy while the other one has a bad time to achieve that happiness. One solution that does come to mind is, first to accept yourself as you are (and just in case, no I don't mean accept that you were born a girl, that would be hypocrite on my part, we don't get to choose our bodies after all, I also don't feel comfortable about my situation but that's just the way we are, we like some things and dislike others, that's what makes our personalities). Once you can get to love yourself as you are, then you can expect others to love you as you are too. Perhaps it will be a bit hard at first since they are already set to thinking in a way, but keep trying and they might just start to understand your decision. Sorry if I can't be of more help, I am a bit bad with relationships myself, but I felt the need to share what I think.

 

I hope this is somehow useful and that you can get your tulpae to accept you, the rest of the world might be a lot harder but it's always good to try and do the same with those who know and are close to you.

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Guest Anonymous

Well theres a few things I can think of that could be causing this

 

1. Deep down you still have doubts about your gender identity

2. Something about the way you have tried to change your gender is hurting you subconsciously and your tulpas are having a hard time with that or trying to get you to stop

3. Your tulpas are just dicks. I cant believe they would be, but the option is always there.

 

Have you tried talking to them about it or has it just been callouts during arguments? It might be best to organise a sit-down so everyone can get out their problems in the open and you can address their concerns on a case by case basis.

 

Another thing I would say is, you need to be more understanding. I mean, you brought them into this world, your body, and now you are making quite a big change to the way your lives are lived. You clearly want them to understand you, but you have to show the same level of understanding to them. You cant expect everyone to just fall into line when you make a large change like this. People need time to adapt and grow.

 

Our system has a group of rules, and we all start out at zero points, but can get up to seventy-two. Quartz already has ten points for another past instance of emotional manipulation, and for this infraction I should add another ten, but I'm still feeling hesitant. 72 points and he is out of our system for good. I don't want that. I need him.

 

Gonna put this bluntly, this is a shit system. I mean really.

People are going to have arguments, sure, but having a points system where you get points for "Emotional manipulation" is just toxic.

Im not surprised they dont care about what you say if you care so little about them that you feel you can get rid of them after a few arguments.

Get rid of this system. When you created them you signed up for this. You wouldnt create a point system in a real friendship where, after a few cases of "Emotional Manipulation" (No idea what that even means. I assume he gave you the sad eyes to get something he wanted or whatever) You just shot them in the head.

Even if you only give out points for BIG things, you have still planted the idea that they are disposable.

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To answer the title of the thread:

 

- There may be a propensity for them to be accepting, but we can’t really say if it’s an intrinsic quality that comes from the get-go. And sure, we could make a presumption that if they’re bound within our cognition, they would reach an impasse if they refuse to try and coexist with you, and thus the potential becomes greater if having a flourishing existence is something they desire.

 

 

As for the points system you set up for them, and the myriad of hypotheses you set up for yourself:

 

- One of my best friends in my life was, to my knowledge, pre-op at the time. She had two sides to herself, and somehow, the other that was more cynical and protective of herself opened herself up to me. She eventually found out about the concept of tulpas, and probably would be creating a schemata of rationalizing as you’re doing, though, she ended up not liking the concept of tulpas, and wanted to pull her shit together for a better future. After she reconciled with that, I haven’t seen her since.

 

 

What I’m getting at with this anecdote is that persevering in conditioned existence with tulpas can be a very perplexing ethically on how one “ought” to do this, or that; i.e., normative ethics. You could see this experience of yours as a learning curve to come to terms with finding your own common ground. I had the same trouble with dream characters, and trying to find a sense of novelty behind their existence with the piercing realization that said existence is merely transitory, and can only be cherished by seeing them more than just a fading memory. Mind you, I didn't have strife with equivocations with gender, sex, and such; just finding a progressive source of guidance.

 

The question may not be so much as wanting to know that threshold; that limit on the level of acceptance, and even unconditional love that they implicitly could exhibit to you, but rather:

 

- How accepting can you be of them in spite of their varied dispositions? How much are you willing to take efforts in trying to understand them, and potentially understanding more about yourself?

 

- Whether it’s a matter of gender equivocations, or coping with the raw hatred that sends you into this crippling, existential horror, the yearning to be whoever they want you to be is something I could never console you on. Simply because the path my friend went through can easily be undermined since implicit empathy is all I could go for in what she had to go through. Fortunately, she was able to go through all the necessary therapy for a better future, and in your case, this doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

And it’s easier said than done, so, maybe all of this group thinking, and schemata wrapping on the origins behind their existence is just a further distraction from getting real, professional help. And I’m not talking about a patronizing-go-get-help, but more of a connotation that's justified in realization that anyone of any label of existence would tend to seek the concept of tulpa as supplement in answering things they’ve been wanting to resolve with for so long.

 

 

It becomes an umbrella term for them, and the inquisition for information is something anyone would want to do. However, what I learned from something like dream characters is that I didn’t need to yearn for them to tell me something I already knew, or for them to be an end-all be-all source of how to map out my life.

 

At the end of the day, you have to wonder:

 

o Would it be more flourishing for you to reign in your existence for a better future?

 

o Could it be that their constant criticism in objectifying your existence, and creating normative ethics on how you “ought to live,” (e.g. as a certain gender, sex, etc.) is a piercing learning curve for you to take realization of what you want out of your life?

 

o Maybe learning something through them isn’t always done through unconditional positive reinforcement since it could be more of how you’re reacting to those inquiries, professions, and yearnings from them for you to be this human being, or that human being. Thus, the reaction starts becoming your concept of how you view them, and the more you feed that, the more you only see them through a certain veneer.

 

o But even with this cryptic talk of mine, seeking moral magistrates on how you should assess not just your life, but your mere existence doesn’t seem plausible all the time, as I feel their tendency to objectify you could be a learning curve. Sure, it may be scolding, but something to learn from nonetheless. If you know how to exhibit your yearning to be who you want to be, you can reign your future, and show them how much it means for you, or stay at an impasse until other alternatives can be brought to awareness.

 

o And with any thread that may potentially talk about dissipation:

 

o How you form your own normative ethic on that is probably contingent on who-- individually, or collectively within your cognition wants to seek a more flourishing lifestyle to where their everyday cognition isn't being compromised.

 

And with that, in spite of how people may judge you nonetheless: at least you had the tenacity to try and sort things out vs. someone like a long lost friend I had who tried to make a better future for herself, but may still be going through that internal battle to find her place in the world. But at the same time, the concept of tulpas isn't an inherent attribute of how one should assess their quotidian lifestyle; it's a subjective matter that they can choose to take, or not for satiating a yearning for self-actualization, or self-realization depending on the context at hand.

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Firstly, thank you all for your replies to this. I didn't think anyone would reply at all. I thought this would just get ignored, but I'm glad for all of these thoughtful responses.

 

@Luminese: Thanks for your response. My Tulpas are usually really chill about everything, so I guess seeing them flame up about something so small, but something so important, is kind of jarring for me. And I guess I'm just so used to people being transphobic everywhere I go, I thought the same thing would happen here.

 

@FallFamily: Thank you for telling me it's okay. I used to be really positive about my gender, and I guess all the bullying kind of changed that into negativity. I still need to work on accepting myself and getting rid of my own-self hatred. Also, your analogy helped clear that up for me, thanks. :D I'll pass on the message to them both.

 

@Blaycon: Thank you ^^ I should lead by example and accept myself first.

 

@LinkZelda: Interesting and thought-provoking post! I'll try to answer these questions for myself ^^


Well theres a few things I can think of that could be causing this

 

1. Deep down you still have doubts about your gender identity

2. Something about the way you have tried to change your gender is hurting you subconsciously and your tulpas are having a hard time with that or trying to get you to stop

3. Your tulpas are just dicks. I cant believe they would be, but the option is always there.

 

Have you tried talking to them about it or has it just been callouts during arguments? It might be best to organise a sit-down so everyone can get out their problems in the open and you can address their concerns on a case by case basis.

 

Another thing I would say is, you need to be more understanding. I mean, you brought them into this world, your body, and now you are making quite a big change to the way your lives are lived. You clearly want them to understand you, but you have to show the same level of understanding to them. You cant expect everyone to just fall into line when you make a large change like this. People need time to adapt and grow.

 

 

Gonna put this bluntly, this is a shit system. I mean really.

People are going to have arguments, sure, but having a points system where you get points for "Emotional manipulation" is just toxic.

Im not surprised they dont care about what you say if you care so little about them that you feel you can get rid of them after a few arguments.

Get rid of this system. When you created them you signed up for this. You wouldnt create a point system in a real friendship where, after a few cases of "Emotional Manipulation" (No idea what that even means. I assume he gave you the sad eyes to get something he wanted or whatever) You just shot them in the head.

Even if you only give out points for BIG things, you have still planted the idea that they are disposable.

 

It could be any of those things, really. Considering how nice they both are at any other time and in any other scenario... I guess I would say that option number three is out.

 

I'm pretty sure of *what* my gender is, so I guess it would be the second thing.

 

It hasn't been just when we are all arguing; we've been having the most peaceful time, polite conversation, and then suddenly 'if only you were a girl.' It's a continuous thing that hasn't been provoked by me.

 

I consider myself a pretty understanding person. I changed my gender YEARS ago. It took me a while to adapt too, and it's not like I never gave Gamzee time to adapt. He never controls our body anyway, so it shouldn't matter to him. Plus I was already non-binary when Quartz was created, so there's nothing for him to adapt to; everything is the way it's always been for him, and I'm trying to understand why it's such a problem. You're right there in that I should try to be more understanding for why they hate me so much.

 

As for the point system, I think I need to elaborate-

 

Emotional manipulation isn't 'puppy eyes' or whatever. It's referring to specifically changing another member's emotions. As seen by other Tulpamancers and myself, Tulpas have some level of control over their host's emotions. Quartz has taken advantage of this in a major way at least twice, and it is detrimental to my mental health as well as my relationships. I set this rule down that if any system member (though I'm pretty sure he's the only one who does this) purposely manages another's emotions without their consent, they get anywhere from five to ten points (depending on the severity.) I wouldn't have put this rule into place if it wasn't serious.

 

I know in a lot of system there's no need for rules, but several of my alters are violent, so is Gamzee, and Quartz just loves to manipulate me. And me? I insult my system a lot, so I added a rule against shit-talking (at least to the Outside world.) I think the only one in our system who is completely innocent is Obsidian.

 

We set the rules down and we all agreed on them together. We have agreed on the entire system of rules. We even wrote the rules down and signed the paper. This isn't just me.

 

Theoretically, no one in our system should ever reach 72 points, and even if they did, that isn't immediate banishment/death- each case needs to be considered. We also all reset to zero each year, and we were all at zero when we made the rules. Quartz broke the rule knowing what the punishment was (in this case, ten points.) If it doesn't happen again in the future, he will reset back to zero. Simple enough.

 

The only thing that truly calls for banishment is killing another system member, or repeated attempts to. In all other cases, it just depends.

 

It's been working well for us. In general- as a whole system- we used to fight a lot, but agreeing on these rules, trying to work everything out, has helped immensely. It's our way of working, and it works for us. I wouldn't even consider killing my Tulpas if I could help it.

 

Knowing Quartz, if this shit continues in the future I'm going to have to find a more permanent way of punishment (I don't mean death, guys.) I'll probably "ground" him like I did with Gamzee when he attempted to kill another system member.

White text- Ash (the host!)

Red text- Quartz!

Purple text- Gamzee!

Blue text- Obsidian!

 

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Guest Anonymous

Has agreeing to the rules helped or is it just a band-aid over the larger problem? You may have squashed the arguments with the threat of punishment but surely the underlying issues are still present?

I still think a nice group sit down, maybe a nice cup of tea and some bickies, just to air out all the problems is in order.

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Guest Anonymous

Tulpas would work in the benefit of the host. The benefit of the host in their own regards, that is. If my host wants to do something that's bad and won't work out well, I won't accept it at all. Tulpas aren't that accepting. Complete acceptance implies you are interacting with dull individuals with no real free will. We don't think like hosts most of the time.

 

This is how I see it; You either control your tulpas, or you really tone down what they can affect. A tulpa trying to kill another tulpa is not a good sign, put them under watch and impose yourself as a host. In the end, it is an opinion, what they share, that is. You can oppress that opinion, they don't like your decision, but it is your decision.

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Has agreeing to the rules helped or is it just a band-aid over the larger problem? You may have squashed the arguments with the threat of punishment but surely the underlying issues are still present?

I still think a nice group sit down, maybe a nice cup of tea and some bickies, just to air out all the problems is in order.

It actually has helped. When we agreed to the rules (which was about a month ago) we all sat down and discussed it. We each apologized for the things we'd done to harm each other and for the most part, our issues were resolved- it's just this one little thing.

 

It wasn't just me who put the rule system in place, again. We all came up with and agreed to them. I promise I'm not a super controlling host.

 

Between the alters in our system, it was more a method of finding out how to relate to each other. Carson and I used to fight a lot because we were mutually insulting to each other (he usually started the fight, but I didn't help by adding fuel to the fire and being rude back.) Teresa, when she was first born, so to speak, could be a bit wild (and for some reason she really despised me.) But like I said, we got all of that resolved.

 

UPDATE for everyone who has replied;

 

I did talk to Gamzee and Quartz (and I did pass on any messages directed at them.

 

Gamzee said:

 

"I just... didn't get that it was that important to you. I thought that it was like a joke or something. But I'm really sorry, brosis. I never meant to hurt you. I didn't really understand, but I get it now. And I'm sorry.

 

Quartz said:

 

"I'm really sorry, Ash. I'll try not to be rude in the future. I didn't realize it had been hurting you so much; you were just always so strong when other people said those things I never took it into consideration you were suffering in silence. And I... want you to know I care. I get it now. I get how hard it must be, being in that body. I've never had that problem. @FallFamily; thanks. My host is a wonderful person. I didn't mean to hurt them with my actions."

White text- Ash (the host!)

Red text- Quartz!

Purple text- Gamzee!

Blue text- Obsidian!

 

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