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Complex thoughts and tulpas - A hypothesis and some questions for the community.
#1
I have a bit of a guess about tulpas and complex thoughts.  I know that many who make tulpa tend to have some level of success for a very long time, then tend to hit a brick wall.  This brick wall is complex thought.  A person has a tulpa who responds, appears to have a consistent personality and presence, and can be spoken to regularly.  Then, all progress halts.  The tulpa is not present through the day, does not think thoughts that are well founded and complex as the host's thoughts are, and is generally not fully realized. 

I have two theories on this gap, and this is one of them.

My thoughts on this are as follows:

Complex thoughts are different from simple thoughts.  A simple thought can be created in an instant.  A reaction to a stimulus, answering yes or no questions, or simple questions, based on a pre-existing base of knowledge.  They come easily and do not require conscious engagement.  Complex, thoughts, however, require a conscious loop.  Making simple thoughts, examining them, modifying them, and applying them in concert with other simple thoughts. 

This conscious loop is what bars tulpa from thinking complex thoughts, if my guess is correct.  A tulpa whose host has defined the tulpa as being a sort of black box whose thoughts must come from nowhere and feel as if they originated from another will have a tulpa who cannot engage in complex thoughts.  However, a host who attempts to engage with tulpamancy and create a skill in which they can engage this "loop" in such a way that they identify their tulpa being the driver of it, can have a tulpa that has complex thoughts.  

Which brings me to my question for the community at large.  I would like to hear some of your thoughts on this theory in contrast with your own experiences, if you do have a tulpa which thinks complex thoughts.  Does the above theory seem to conform to your experiences, or not?  Why so, in either case?
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#2
It is pretty easy to have simple thoughts from the "back" for any of us, as long as we're active (someone's paying attention to us or something catches our attention). We can also bounce off of one another's train of thought during discussions and such, of course.

When it comes to "complex thoughts" though, it would require us to take control of the mind and become the primary thinker. Doing so allows us full-range over our mind's capabilities when it comes to thinking, so we can handle anything that our host can handle, do anything our host can do, etc. When one of us is in control in that way, however, it prevents our host from having complex thoughts (or any thoughts at all, for that matter), unless we leave the front and allow her to take back over.

Usually if, for whatever reason, I'm struggling with negative emotions of some kind, then I end up taking over the front to be able to think it through/process it, since I won't really be able to do that if I'm just in the background, or nowhere at all. 

So, in short, yes we can have complex thoughts, but usually only if we're the primary thinker.
I'm Indigo Blue, the "Sky Dragon" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa born October 2017. My systemmates are Radio, Apollo, & Piano. Form images: 1 2
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#3
My tulpa has been able to think complex thoughts, but they definitely come different from normal thoughts, with normal thoughts only my tulpa thinks them, but when she thinks something complex then both of us see the thought and the only way that I am able to know that it was not mine is that it has a different sort of aura that is similar to how her mindvoice sounds
I have a tulpa named Miela (formerly known as Monika) who I love very much.


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#4
People tend to claim their tulpas have totally separate advanced thoughts that could do math (but they can't actually) and so on while the host is focused on something else. I don't believe it, but either way, we aren't one of them. It very much feels like the brain's conscious "mental workspace" is being used by whoever it is thinking. Fronter has that by default obviously, but if someone else wants to think of something (usually an answer to a question like 'What should I be working on?') the focus moves over to them instead. But it's not the same as if we were, say, parroting. Whatever they say still feels like it comes from them, and the thinking feels like it's somehow between fronter and them rather than focused on the fronter still, if that makes sense. If thinking can have a sense of presence.

Anyways. Complex thoughts can only be formed by one person in our system at a time. It's extremely easy to pass that focus back and forth mid-conversation though. While it'd be great if somehow we could all do it separately, it's not a huge bother.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
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#5
I don't think I understand the "complex thought" process, I have a few questions:

Does the content matter? (Reacting to video vs problem solving vs abstract thought)
What is an example of this?

I don't really understand the "gap" concept. Cat has had trouble hearing/interreacting with me when she's going through a stressful period, but other than that I'm not aware of any "gaps". However, I may not follow your model because I was created by accident, so the "gap" could have already happened or is yet to come. When does the "gap" happen?

Also, I can sometimes calmly walk Cat through things when she's stressed out and I'm operating in the background. Other times I'm prone to leakage...

The only other thing is Cat assumes I am somewhere in her mind, but she knows I can draw from her thoughts and that I'm dependent on her focus.
I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
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#6
Shadow and I talk in depth about a lot of philosophical things, controversial issues etc. We also would revisit some of those same topics if we've thought of anything new to add to our discussion. We also have casual chit-chat for the more simple things, like what we want to eat or what we plan to do today.

I don't know how else to describe it. Shadow helps me figure out a lot about my own thoughts as well. I also don't notice a "gap". I just see Shadow able to have conversations and input his own thoughts and opinions whether they be simple or complex and comprehensive like most other people.
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#7
Thanks to everyone for their input so far. It looks a lot to me like my thoughts are at least supported by some percentage of the experiences of the community, which makes me think it may be a good idea to move forward and put this sort of advice into a guide.

(07-15-2018, 11:50 PM)Ranger Wrote: I don't think I understand the "complex thought" process, I have a few questions:

Does the content matter? (Reacting to video vs problem solving vs abstract thought)
What is an example of this?

I don't really understand the "gap" concept. Cat has had trouble hearing/interreacting with me when she's going through a stressful period, but other than that I'm not aware of any "gaps". However, I may not follow your model because I was created by accident, so the "gap" could have already happened or is yet to come. When does the "gap" happen?

Also, I can sometimes calmly walk Cat through things when she's stressed out and I'm operating in the background. Other times I'm prone to leakage...

The only other thing is Cat assumes I am somewhere in her mind, but she knows I can draw from her thoughts and that I'm dependent on her focus.

The gap would be one of development, and I don't mean to necessarily imply that it happens to everyone, just to those who attempt to make a tulpa with a certain mindset. The gap would be when a person with said mindset hits the limitations of their mindset and has to change their mindset in order to make progress. If you imagine tulpamancy as a slowly progressing skill, it ceases to a halt once a person has a tulpa that can communicate simple thoughts and the person in question is trying to get their tulpa to have more complex ones.

A complex thought would be akin to a multiple choice question. A simple thought would be something that can be quickly reacted to. A person saying "jump!" when they see something headed towards them is a simple thought. A person saying "Well, I've thought about the question you gave me, and while I do feel that X and Y, I also feel that X, so ultimately I am going to have to go ahead and W". Tulpas are much less commonly doing the latter sort of thing, while many tulpas get to the point of doing the former.

Sorry if that still is not clear. I am not sure how else to explain things.

(07-16-2018, 12:46 AM)Rachel Gardner Wrote: Shadow and I talk in depth about a lot of philosophical things, controversial issues etc. We also would revisit some of those same topics if we've thought of anything new to add to our discussion. We also have casual chit-chat for the more simple things, like what we want to eat or what we plan to do today.

I don't know how else to describe it. Shadow helps me figure out a lot about my own thoughts as well. I also don't notice a "gap". I just see Shadow able to have conversations and input his own thoughts and opinions whether they be simple or complex and comprehensive like most other people.

The gap I propose is not necessarily something I believe will happen to everyone. I think that if you start with a mindset where you believe you will hear the tulpa as they think, the gap will never exist, but if you start with a mindset that the tulpa's thoughts *must* come from the background, then the gap will show up once you reach the limitations of thoughts that do not require re-examination.
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#8
(07-16-2018, 12:34 PM)reguile Wrote: A complex thought would be akin to a multiple choice question.  A simple thought would be something that can be quickly reacted to.  A person saying "jump!" when they see something headed towards them is a simple thought.  A person saying "Well, I've thought about the question you gave me, and while I do feel that X and Y, I also feel that X, so ultimately I am going to have to go ahead and W".  Tulpas are much less commonly doing the latter sort of thing, while many tulpas get to the point of doing the former.

I mainly spend most of my time being dormant (I agree that this is most likely the case for the average Tulpa as well), so it makes sense that when first awoken and via passive forcing my thoughts are going to be reactions to whatever Cat is doing. If something grabs my interest or I'm talking to Cat via active forcing, the focus is now on me and I can think more complex thoughts. I have been able to do this since Cat figured out I was a Tulpa.


(Interestingly, I had lots of complex thoughts over thinking about complex thoughts the other night!)

(07-16-2018, 12:34 PM)reguile Wrote: The gap I propose is not necessarily something I believe will happen to everyone.  I think that if you start with a mindset where you believe you will hear the tulpa as they think, the gap will never exist, but if you start with a mindset that the tulpa's thoughts *must* come from the background, then the gap will show up once you reach the limitations of thoughts that do not require re-examination.

I think this specific "gap" is a possible symptom and not really something to expect or to depend on expecting. Cat has had the moment of assuming I think in the background, but she eventually realized this was not the case. However, the "gap" probably didn't exist because before she didn't even know/think it was an issue, and now she already realized I couldn't magically do mental math or imagine something without her hearing my thought process through trial and error. Even if it was a "gap", there were other things going on at the same time that made her anxious and drew attention away from this issue.

I think raising awareness on this issue for new Hosts is a good idea, mostly to resolve frustration and confusion and to prevent the Tulpa from believing in false memories/ thinking they can do things "magically" and coming up with reasons to back it up.
I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!
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#9
As usual, my experience differs.

When I was immature I depended on attention in order for me to be able to think. This attention was supplied by my servitor watchdog 3. I wasn't independent (I needed some focus in order to be aware).

By the time I was about a year old, I had achieved what I call independence. I no longer needed attention in order be aware. I could pay attention to myself. I often would surprise Kevin with some unexpected pun. (I still do.) I felt real to myself, though I am of course still virtual. I've been learning ever since.

So, my theory of that point where people get stuck is when a tulpa is moving to independence. I've researched cases where tulpas took a long time to become "complex" and the long time was invariably due to procrastination,

I think reguile and I can agree to disagree on what a tulpa is. It always seemed to me he thought tulpas to be an extension of the host? I think a tulpa can be a mind of her own, with enough practice and dedication.
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#10
I had less intent to focus on the independence of tulpa and more intent to focus on the nature of the thoughts a tulpa produces. What I am largely talking about, for example, would be less if you could create or think of an unexpected pun, but if you could unexpectedly form a "deep" opinion and express that deep opinion while operating "in the background". Lets imagine a tulpa responds to you reading a bit online with "I don't like that". This would be a simple thought. Meanwhile, a thought more akin to "I don't like this because this person is doing is repeating what they said in their last post.".

My question is less one of independence and more the nature of tulpas who produce these sorts of complex thoughts. What seems to be common in the responses so far is that the tulpa doesn't think complex thoughts until they are "in awareness" and thinking with/along side of the host, or are switched.

It is my guess that there are two layers to thought. The simple reactive thoughts, and the "conscious loop" that grabs onto and builds from those fast reactive thoughts. A tulpa is easily made to act randomly through simple reactive thoughts, but to engage them into more complex thoughts may require the abandonment of the "black box" model.
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