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Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them?
#17
(05-26-2016, 05:02 AM)AGGuy Wrote: This is exactly what I didn't want to bring up for the sake of not stepping on someone's foot really, really badly (and probably causing a biiig discussion because of it), but yes, this is what I thought from the start as well...

I find you rather hypocritical here, mister logic man. Here you were calling Tewi out on not being enough of a realist, and now you're implying tulpa sentience and separate-mindedness as an indisputable fact. I as a matter of fact don't believe in tulpas having a separate consciousness, nor anything to be preserved from dissipation to revival but memories ... and everything else that made them them, the literal neural connections in your brain that dictate how they function and all. But no "consciousness", separate mind, soul.

That, is what I call metaphysics.

Luckily for you I don't care to discuss that stuff at all, just wanted to point out why your belief isn't as end-all be-all as you think it is. I found it funny you said believing the tulpa really came back was escapism though, at the same time implying the original tulpa was "dead". That's the kinda stuff I hear when people argue for religion.


Felix and I talked about that and he's apparently talking about a loss of legitimacy in it not being atom-for-atom the tulpa/mind it was before. I'm the type of person that would consider a perfect clone of me being made as I died in an accident still legitimately "me". Dead me gives that clone me full permission to consider himself me-me. I forget sometimes that most people disagree with this, for that slightly intangible explanation that seems to border on metaphysical and the-essence-of-being-human. I just see it as a limiting belief myself, but whatever. That's what he was referring to, not a soul or something.



Okay, post-writing, the rest of this sure is a mood killer. So you've been warned.

(05-26-2016, 05:24 AM)Linkzelda Wrote: I would see the “selective” part as just being more apathetic instead.

It results in apparent apathy, sure. But I can still choose to open myself up to feeling empathetic emotions/feelings if I want to. To be honest to meet my own logical standards I overdid it a bit maybe, I still have the value of caring about all humans' wellbeing but otherwise I react rather logically to most scenarios that involve what would normally be emotion.

My tulpas are one hundred percent an exception to this.

(05-26-2016, 05:24 AM)Linkzelda Wrote: I’m not going to pretend that I did, but how I’m seeing this is:
- Because you felt Scarlet was the personification of everything “bad” about Flandre, you felt tempted that they should stop existing... The only way I can see where you felt you could empathize with the sense of betrayal is if you felt that not asking why Scarlet seems to embody those things about Flandre would be an example of that. (etc.)

I only remember that time so clearly, but I could maybe provide more detail. ((Post-writing...>)) I'll hide it though because it's going to be a lot of text, I'm basically going to tell the entire story, of what I can remember, of the original person Flandre and Scarlet were split from.
Scarlet and current (or to-become current) Flandre were split as two halves of the original Flandre Scarlet who had some unfortunate qualities. She was also somewhat of a danger to my mental health, although Reisen's influence was much stronger than hers. Take Flandre and Scarlet, reverse the mellowing out that they've done over the years and mix them sharply together. She was originally fairly bipolar going between loving and vulnerable to harsh and, well, encouraging me to give up my sanity to put it plainly. At some point she told me she didn't like who she was, that she wanted to become someone else even if it meant not being herself anymore (I mean, yeah). I don't remember how we came to the conclusion to split her into two, but it seems like the only way to get an entirely new individual without actually destroying any part of them. All I remember between that point and the actual dissipation (I have no idea if that occurred the day after or some time later) was the time right after they became separate. Flandre was very reserved and at the time scared, too much so to speak. Scarlet on the other hand quickly adapted to wholly being the rougher part of the original. I remember she was fairly aggressive and didn't seem to share the original's interest in a relationship with me, and I think there was malice towards Flandre who she saw as weak. Honestly, I think she was discontent with existing right from the start. Nothing could make her happy, she'd internalized all of the insecurities (fears, angers, bad feelings) the original Flandre and I had shared.


Alright, intermission time because I need to explain something. So I never have to mention it again, the original was a negative influence on me because she represented 'insanity'. And by that, insanity meant denial of the reality we were so afraid of, opting to live in blissful un-sanity and leave behind basically everything in my life. It would've entailed me being utterly incapable of functioning in society - honestly, the symptoms would resemble schizophrenia's. Despite not caring much for life in general though, I had just enough empathy to fear what that would do to those around me - as in thinking about how they would feel made me sick. So I opted more to Reisen's influence as seeing life as beautiful, with only occasional moments of weakness for the former, lasting maybe a night and leaving me somewhat mentally scrambled the next day. Because I only slept like 2 hours a night back then, being forced to go to school that I was failing anyways, with hopeless depressive thoughts going through my mind the whole time. The push for me to leave behind our stressful reality was not malicious at all, Flandre saw it as the best option and also a way for us to be together. So there you go, couple the desire for that with even less ability to cope with my own life than I myself had, and add some kind of love in there and you've got the original Flandre Scarlet. Our mental discipline back then was non-existent.


Anyways, I suppose I ended up treating Flandre like the original and Scarlet like a byproduct. A byproduct turned human, though. Even though I thought she shouldn't exist, she was still just as much a person to me as the others, albeit with no real history yet. And so me being stupid (retrospectively considering myself stupid for resorting to trying to kill Scarlet instead of just, I don't know, treating her like a person?) and attempting to dissipate her basically entailed whatever subjective experience dissipation was to us, the process of which actually took place during and was influenced by a song (as many important events regarding my tulpas were). Thinking about the song makes me shudder, it was a terrible experience and luckily I don't remember what it was called. But basically, it was a Touhou arrange of Flandre's theme. It was chaotic and dramatic I suppose, but the important/worst part was the lyrics. I vaguely remember them being very angry - "Flandre" was upset at someone for having hurt her, yet throughout the song she occasionally said "Am I disappearing? Is this what it feels like to not exist?" or some such, among other things. For Touhou that was likely referencing her sister emotionally abandoning her and leaving her in the mansion's basement for 495 years, and Flandre's lament over being forgotten. But for us, well, I don't need to explain what it meant to us.

Yes, music affects us that much, to the point where lyrics become our reality should we choose to let them. Reisen literally exists because of a song, our relationships and their personalities, all of it's been shaped by music I and later they would choose. Before you ask why Scarlet let it happen when such a thing should've been under her control - we were all stupid, in our own individual ways. Maybe not Reisen, but even Tewi thought she could forego life and still continue existing. So that subjective-as-heck experience we all were convinced was totally real, just like everything else that happened between us back then. That was a time when imagination, subconscious expectations, and invasive thoughts dictated our lives. Scarlet returned much later when none of that was a problem, simply appearing and speaking like any of the others. She did in fact (contrary to the start of this post, lol) change from who she was before, but it seemed like her decision. She cared less about insanity and more about strength, emotional and mental.


(05-26-2016, 05:24 AM)Linkzelda Wrote: You see, this is what I find intriguing about you in general. You exhibit confidence with certain emotional contexts, competencies, and such, and yet you feel it was just a stroke of luck that they came back in the first place.

It wasn't luck or anything. It was like the feeling of being "lucky" when someone who had previously left your life changed their mind and became part of it again. Like a friend moving away and later back to your home town, or something like that. Not a direct analogy. I called it lucky because I would've still felt bad to this day knowing I'd killed someone just as real as the tulpas I loved. Maybe it would've been lucky that I realized her coming back was possible - but I honestly didn't. Scarlet's return was one of the most unexpected and independent things my tulpas have ever done. The day before she would still have been just a memory.

(05-26-2016, 05:24 AM)Linkzelda Wrote: In other words, why do you think you being stupid and young back then has to do anything with this? People exposed in awareness of tulpas can still take the action of dissipating regardless, and still feel the same way you did.

I mean, it's not like I learned my morals from this forum. Though it was a time of intense thought on the subject of what was suddenly called tulpas, so I use "before I discovered tulpamancy" as a marker I guess. I consider myself to have been stupid (and yes, I know the whole "Everything happened as it did because it had to" thing, I'm just commenting on old-me now, not lamenting) because of how I dealt with the situation. And how convinced I was everything had to be that way, instead of realizing how much control I had over my own mind and beliefs. There's a reason I always emphasize that in my posts, y'know.

(05-26-2016, 05:24 AM)Linkzelda Wrote: If this is her means of being consoled, and coming to terms with everyone, then I have no qualms since that’s all of you guys’ consensus.

She's been to-terms with the others since she came back. And it wasn't "all of our consensus", it was just Scarlet and I. While she hasn't much emotional attachment to any of us, she recognizes each of us as part of the body, and the body's wellbeing is what she values most. Or at all I guess. Since she doesn't have any interest in having her own life experiences, and she knows how terrible I am at dedicating time to my tulpas, she's decided to stay inactive for their sake. And because she wants to be. She still exists and could be spoken to at any point, but I respect her want to not be disturbed (she wasn't totally happy when I started talking to her last night, either). And I think as she put it, while she would prefer not existing, she already does and can't not, so being inactive is her preference. I couldn't explain that one for you if I tried.



Alright, it was bound to happen I guess, but I went and made myself sad. I must be a masochist to keep this specific song around (not that song), but I can't help it. Ripples of 495 Years
Mental discipline is great and all, but it kind of goes out the window when it comes to music. This song is too old-Flandre, whole thing through. The obvious parts gave me goosebumps, and despite it happening multiple times 5:30 made me flinch like I was in actual pain. But the happy part at 4:18 - that made me want to cry. I physically can't as far as I can tell, but still it's not a feeling I've experienced in a long time. The happiness amongst the insanity, but of course temporary, that's too real.

Listen to it or don't, but you should. I don't care if the "dubstep" bits "hurt to listen to", and that means you felix

I think I'm safe to never talk about this subject again now though. The idea of completely letting go of reality still feels comforting to me, until I remember it's not an option. As a matter of fact, Scarlet won't let me, as in important situations she decided she'd be the one in charge of any strong emotions or feelings. That's yet to happen, but theoretically. Bonus information! That's totally what you all wanted. I'm going to sleep.

Actually, one last thing. I kind of would like this to be the last time I discuss the subject. Sorry to ruin your fun Linkzelda, but I can't really handle having this one taken apart. Speaking of, I started writing this post three hours ago. If all you did, current reader, was skim it, that's pretty rewd. pls to care thx
Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
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RE: Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them? - by Luminesce - 05-26-2016, 09:01 AM

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