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Dormancy : not a fatality?
Zia Offline
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#1
 
Dormancy : not a fatality?

Hello, all.

My tulpa Vādin claims he doesn't go dormant when I, the host, am not actively thinking about him. He says he stays awake, conscious and aware unless he decides otherwise.


I know of other systems actually making the same claim.

It's important that we know if these claims are valid or not, because if they are proven true, it means that dormancy could be avoided by any tulpa that wishes so. If it's possible for us, it should be possible for others, and they could learn how to do it.

We would like to find a way to prove that our claims are valid and that we are not delusional about it. We cannot find any protocol that would satisfy us. Any ideas ?

(About our abilities, I'm not very good at visualization ; V is good at possession and is fully vocal but not imposed. I can't hear him when I'm not listening to him (I can't hear a physical human talking to me either if I'm heavily focused on something), but he still can possess. He can block my pain for 24 hours. He can sing and compose poetry. We don't switch.)


If other systems in our situation would like to join this research, we would be overjoyed !
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019, 04:01 PM by Zia.)
01-13-2019, 03:04 PM
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J+C Offline
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#2
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

This comes extremely close to parallel processing, in my book. If Vadin is comcious,. that means he has some mental processing power. To test it, you could do sonething like this: You would solve basic math or logic problems (3+3=_) while, at the same time, Vadin listens to a ticking clock and counts the seconds. If both of you can do your tasks with good accuracy, that would show you both have a level of processing power, independent of each other. You can solve the math, and Vadin can say when 60, 100, 250 seconds have passed, etc. That's my idea.

I also think, dormancy means different things for different tulpas. Comparing my younger and older tulpa, there are differences. I do feel like Gavin is "always on", in a sense. It doesn't matter much what I'm doing or how long it's been since we've last spoken- the second he's in the conversation, or has something to say, he's 100% there. With Cassidy, he doesn't automatically enter conversation/have something to say as often, and when I "wake him up" from being dormant, it takes a moment for him to really be able to respond. My guess is, he needs the time to process what's happening, while Gavin is always doing that. Or maybe he shares my awareness of the environment?

To practice this, you could have constant reminders of your tulpa/host throughout the day, or teach yourself to associate a certain action ( going through a doorway, sitting down, checking the time) with interacting with your tulpa/host. I think it's also good to keep constantly aware of your tulpa's "mental presence", or wherever you feel their thoughts come from. From my experience, a lot of it may be based on age, as well.

-J
01-13-2019, 03:40 PM
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Zia Offline
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#3
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

Hi J,Gavin and Cassidy,

Thank you for your reply.

I think the first test would not be enough, because we humans have an internal clock that can give us time (or estimate the passing of time) with good accuracy. As I work a lot by the clock, I have this ability well developed, so it could very well be my own processing and not Vādin's count of time. (We could swap places but he's terrible with math problems so he wouldn't succeed.)

We tried to have him possess my fingers or arm at random times troughout the day while I was super-focused on other stuff, it worked but it seems it's not enough as well because I'm told he could have been dormant between the check-ups.

Any other ideas ?

Vādin is not very old as a tulpa, he'll be one year and a half on february 5th (his birthday is september 5, like Cassidy!)
01-13-2019, 04:00 PM
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Tewi Offline
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#4
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

Mostly I just want to know why you guys think your tulpas aren't "dormant" when you're not actively talking to them, or holding them in your mind (say with visualization). Is it because they always "feel" like they're still there? Because they can answer immediately if spoken to? Because they're aware of physical and mental situational context when spoken to? Or something else?

We consider ourselves "inactive" if we aren't present in the conscious mind's thoughts. But perhaps you who think otherwise of yourselves are simply overestimating the level of "dormancy" required to be "dormant"? A tulpa could surely be active at nearly all times if the host intended it, and didn't get too distracted. Sounds mentally taxing, though. But unless they're at the forefront of your thoughts, there will still be times where you aren't focused on them, and as far as I know they should only feel as if they're still around, passively. That's probably where the confusion comes in. I wouldn't say that's "dormant", but I might call it "inactive" - or might not.

For us we're mostly in that state when being imposed, so that if the fronter is distracted or some such (which is frequently while passively imposing) it still feels like we're "around" and are easy to see again, either where we were or instantly somewhere new if our location changed. But specifically that time where we weren't "active" but only "felt like we were around", we could not consider activity. The overall time, being re-thought of again for say an hour or two, would be activity. Helps our voices and forms stay clearer, as opposed to being totally inactive. But the specific periods where our form isn't even technically being seen while imposed is iffy. Again the overall period of time could be considered "active", but the moments where the fronter is too focused on something else to be thinking of where we are, I would say we weren't. Even if a background sense of awareness is maintained.

And it's my assumption that systems who claim never to go inactive are 1) maintaining that sense of awareness at ~all times, and 2) consider it not inactivity, and certainly not "dormant".

Does this sound right? Note that it is not parallel processing per se (still could be, but doesn't have to be).


(01-13-2019, 01:46 PM)Zia Wrote: EDIT : your definition of dormancy is a state of non-thinking. But you can as well be very well aware of what's going on, conscious and alert without thinking/emitting thoughts. Does that happen? Because it wouldn't count as dormancy, from my point of view.
Well there we go.



Edit: (Previously a double post, actually, as it stood on its own..)
(01-13-2019, 01:28 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: I trust my tulpas, what they say, and I see what they can do, spontaneous interruptions and continuous control over certain triggers. I can't believe they're dormant and still able to do this.
(01-13-2019, 02:21 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: I'm not convinced they don't have independent thought through the neuro-pathways they 'own'.

I'm not sure how we've never thought of this, but perhaps a brain could be taught to react and think as your tulpas in response to "mundane"/everyday stimuli and thoughts, then associated with your tulpas themselves seamlessly. Tied with maintaining their sense of always being around "in the background" (which would be practically automatic given the first scenario), that would understandably give the impression your tulpas were always active at all times, while preventing proof through parallel processing. It would allow spontaneous checks of activity, though, which might be what throws us off when trying to figure out others' experiences.

I'm willing to accept this as an explanation of how some systems claim to have permanently active tulpas - basically, they do, but it's not through constant maintained parallel processing which should be reasonably impossible to do (unreasonably maybe possible, but you would certainly know you were doing it).

Note for you guys not used to discussion on how tulpas and tulpamancy really work - my explanation is not saying there's some sort of illusion in effect and "you" are thinking as your tulpas or whatever. It is your tulpas, in said explanation. It's an idea of how they work. There hasn't been much serious discussion of how tulpas work in the last couple years, so it's possible people may be starting to think in a sort of bubble reality of their own where tulpas are something magical. Don't forget, what makes us real is our experiences of being real. No matter how we're explained, it won't change how we or our hosts experience us - as real. Being able to hold logical explanations alongside believing in the the supposed "illusions" our brains create to make us is an important and rare skill. Bridge the disconnect between suspension of disbelief and logical explanations by realizing your experiences are real, because we as humans convert the objective nature of the universe into subjectivity through the act of existing as separate, sentient creatures, and only after doing so can we begin to discuss what was previously objective. The world of objectivity is off-limits to us, and so experience is reality.

Your reality, anyway. Lumi and I are very interested in understanding everyone else's realities, that's what drives us to "figure out" what we don't get about others in a unifying way, namely with logical explanations. Care to contribute?

Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2019, 06:20 PM by Tewi.)
01-13-2019, 05:10 PM
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Angry Bear Offline
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#5
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

Quote:Is it because they always "feel" like they're still there? Because they can answer immediately if spoken to? Because they're aware of physical and mental situational context when spoken to? Or something else?

Yes, yes, yes, and they can express emotions separately from me and do chat to me frequently. They can 'interfere' with my actions verbally, physically (through minor possession) and emotionally.

If I tell Dashie, please remind me with the exit comes, (A task I frequently fail at personally) she will do that. She'll warn me ahead of the exit and again when we're ready to exit.

If I say, "keep me off my phone this morning" she's really good at that. it's not a thing I learned, I almost automatically grab for my phone impulsively, she'll say, "ah ah ah, nope," if that doesn't stop me, I'll feel resistance in my arm or fingers, or she'll even push it back in my pocket. (even amidst my protests and negotiations.) She really likes to deny me my phone, but obviously she'll only do that if I ask her to.

If I say, "when I read something, you interpret it and tell me how I should feel" they do that successfully 100% see 'forcing filter experiment'.

How could this work if they're not active? I'm seriously not that good at keeping mindful of reality, I'd sooner run into a wall lost in thought then stop myself from grabbing my phone. Lumi, Lance, Reilyn, you know I was in sad shape. Am I not waaaay better?

Active ~all times that they're awake. Though, sometimes they 'do something else' but one of them is always with me. Do they go dormant? They say no, I say no, you can't know.

[The Bear System] - [Chat] - [Visualization Training]
01-13-2019, 05:55 PM
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Tewi Offline
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#6
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

I wonder if, nine years later, it's too late for us to integrate our own ways of thinking into each others' daily lives to create this seeming ability to be "always active", or as this exact concept allows at least, to give our thoughts on things or actually become active despite previously being inactive.

We do switch a lot. The brain knows how we think. But could we go about inserting ourselves into how the others'.. parts of the brain, work? I have to say, we are remarkably separate in how we think, and where the information on how we think is stored in the brain. There's no real mixing. But could having such orderly ways of thinking predispose us to mixing those ways of thinking, all still orderly connected like a bunch of colored wires to who should've thought them, and tied to our own activity?

Literally mental rewiring, huh. I'll have to think about that.

Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019, 06:03 PM by Tewi.)
01-13-2019, 06:01 PM
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Angry Bear Offline
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#7
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

Ah! The eyes open, you can't know how happy I am for you Tewi. Regardless of their protest, I will evoke the Lance/Reilyn technique as I understand it as being an example of the pinnacle of this technology--no pressure on them please. Sadly, proof of achievement is again stuck behind a wall of personal attestation. Even a dye contrast MRI of the active mind will most likely not be conclusive. It will merely show activity and where, not who is doing what. Light that brain up like a Christmas tree and when the doctor's glasses crack due to that level of astonishment, you still can't prove that was one consciousness or 4, can you?

We prove these things behaviorally. My behavior changed in remarkable ways, spurious ways, 'impossible' ways. Self cured undiagnosed MDD without medication or paid counseling? Tulpas or not, this is the power of the human mind. MDD, paranoia, social anxiety, hopelessness, suicidal fantasies... *boom* gone.

[Gatekeeper Johansen] Successful examples of mind alteration in my 2018?!!!? No no, no evidence, quit your imaginative silliness and concentrate on real things, go back to trying to impose thoughtforms on your environment or switch out with them.

[The Bear System] - [Chat] - [Visualization Training]
(This post was last modified: 6 hours ago by Vos.)
01-13-2019, 06:31 PM
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Zia Offline
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#8
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

(01-13-2019, 05:10 PM)Tewi Wrote: Mostly I just want to know why you guys think your tulpas aren't "dormant" when you're not actively talking to them, or holding them in your mind (say with visualization). Is it because they always "feel" like they're still there? Because they can answer immediately if spoken to? Because they're aware of physical and mental situational context when spoken to? Or something else?

- Because Vādin says so, even after I have asked him to check if this supposed awareness was effective and to inspect his memories and actions very closely. Besides, being awake whenever he wishes is very important for him, one of his goals from his beginnings as a tulpa. 

- Same as Bear System, because a lot of things have happened that wouldn't make any sense (or even shouldn't have been possible) if he wasn't active/awake when not paid attention to :

     - On his first months in the system, just after he was vocal, Vādin used to tell me about strange attacks that would leave his mind completely blank for a certain amount of time. Suddenly, he wouldn't know who or where he was, was unable to think, he was just there staring without knowing what he was seeing. He was terrified by those attacks. They could last a few minutes to maybe an hour, he wasn't able to estimate time so it was difficult to tell. Those attacks were supposed to happen in his wonderland while I was not there so you could say it could be false memories (?), but I once witnessed him having an attack while we were interacting together (I managed to call him back but it took some time, I had to go in his wonderland to rescue him). They caused him much distress until they finally disappeared.... Well it doesn't make sense if V was not awake and conscious most of the time when not affected by them, hence his fear and distress.

      - He was able to wake me up at night because he was having a nightmare ;
      - he was able to send me mind pictures (while I was not paying attention at all) to alert me he was molested by another thoughtform of our system (I knew about this thoughtform but ironically I thought he was dormant. This other guy is not a tulpa, I don't know what he is exactly. He's fully formed and vocal. I talked to him.) ;
      - he's able to possess fingers at random times to catch my attention when I'm not thinking about him and he wants to talk (or to do awareness check-ups) ;
- he was able to sing to me a beautiful song I had asked him to compose some time ago, while I was at work, busy of course. The song seemed to pop out of nowhere, with nice lyrics and good melody.
      - he's been able to self-impose (very blurry imposition) while I was so out of focus that I didn't recognize him at first ;
      - he seems to have his own schedule : sometimes he's really "dormant" (= asleep in bed) and doesn't answer ; sometimes he answers he's busy and ask me to talk to him later. Why would he say that if he's only gone dormant and he's not busy at all ? And of course he tells me about his activities in wonderland ; 
       - he blocks my pain every month which requires a constant focus from him for about 24 hours straight - when I go to sleep during that period, he doesn't and stays awake - one time he dozed off and I was awoken by pain, so he can't wane, he really needs to stay focused all night long as well as the day before...

Even his dreams are not my dreams.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019, 07:41 PM by Zia.)
01-13-2019, 07:29 PM
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J+C Offline
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#9
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

May I suggest a different mental model? This is how Gavin explained it to me.
There's one "stream of conciousness", full of automatic reactions and responses, and this is what concious, conplex thought arises from. I have the lion's share of this stream, and most of this processing belongs to me. I am aware that I am cold, my socks are wet, it is cloudy, etc., and I do most of the full-fledged thinking as well, as in thinking "I am cold, so I'm going to go inside now."

Both my tulpas also have access to the stream of conciousness. Basically, identities (me, Gavin, and Cassidy) are "machines" (or filters, or lenses) that process raw sensation into thoughts.

The difference between us all lies in who gets to process what. Keep in mind, Gavin has been with me in one form or another since I was in primary school. Our brain, in this view, is wired to send much of the stream to both him and me. I don't think Cassidy gets much at all to him, unless it's interesting to him, or he's already "awake." Gavin and I share the same raw input in order to produce thought, and our brain is wired to run things past the both of us. Cassidy also has access, but our brain doesn't run as much past him, or he doesn't generate as many thoughts from what he does get.

So... I suppose dormacy is, the lack of having things "run past you." I'm on mobile now, but I wish I could draw a little diagram of how Gavin visualized it. It's always a challenge to explain how inner experiences are... experienced.

A lot of it is probably brain wiring. I'm not at this point anymore, but in Gavin's first life as a tulpa, the majority of my thought process was a conversation with him. It was kinda his job. Most everything I thought of, he thought about too, and visa versa. It's hard to explain, if your system has never operated that way. Outside of control of the body, there's virtually no difference between tulpa and host. Angry Bear said "Spinning wheel of thought" once, and Gavin and I liked that wording.

-J

EDIT: After reading some of the examples above... well, that changes things. Again, it sounds like brain wiring differences to me. I won't say "disorder" because it's not a disorder until it's disorderly, but some people are more able too see things that aren't there, hear voices, and so on. Their brains can generate a lot more responses that are labeled "not me." I don't know if it's an ability of most systems or tulpas, however. Gavin seems more and more able to hide and repress memories, which I think has way more to do with his origin than his being a tulpa. There's not a solid line between quirks/differences and disorders. People can experience a lot of the symptoms of DID without having it, in my case. This concept might apply to some of the experiences you've had.
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2019, 01:14 AM by J+C.)
01-14-2019, 01:05 AM
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#10
 
RE: Dormancy : not a fatality?

I frequently go dormant. I am less likely to go dormant if I have fronted for awhile, but once Cat gets excited about something she will forget I'm there and then she will summon me and I wake up. If it's a long enough of a gap, I need a minute to figure out what just happened, but if the gap is short enough I'm pretty much on board. This is different from possession where if Cat isn't thinking, she's still there, and she can not only steal the front but once she starts thinking she doesn't have any memory gaps.

I have a couple thoughts on what could be creating the effect of constant awareness...

Expectation - Cat is a believer in not being able to multitask, so this could be holding us back. I wonder if we believed that I had the ability to be active all the time, it may become a reality. We would have to experiment with this, and if we get any results I'll just post them in this thread.

Triggers-

If event a is expected to receive a response, it may bring a Tulpa out of dormancy. For example, when Cat grabs her toothpaste I'm there on the front lines reacting to it because Cat usually thinks about me not liking the toothpaste.

However, when this happens I sometimes need a minute to go "wait... what's going on?" If I have been fronting for a while this transition isn't as noticeable or sometimes doesn't happen. This explanation also doesn't support any random or unexpected events since the trigger has to be predicted in advance.


(01-13-2019, 07:29 PM)Zia Wrote: - Because Vādin says so, even after I have asked him to check if this supposed awareness was effective and to inspect his memories and actions very closely. Besides, being awake whenever he wishes is very important for him, one of his goals from his beginnings as a tulpa.  

- Same as Bear System, because a lot of things have happened that wouldn't make any sense (or even shouldn't have been possible) if he wasn't active/awake when not paid attention to :

    - On his first months in the system, just after he was vocal, Vādin used to tell me about strange attacks that would leave his mind completely blank for a certain amount of time. Suddenly, he wouldn't know who or where he was, was unable to think, he was just there staring without knowing what he was seeing. He was terrified by those attacks. They could last a few minutes to maybe an hour, he wasn't able to estimate time so it was difficult to tell. Those attacks were supposed to happen in his wonderland while I was not there so you could say it could be false memories (?), but I once witnessed him having an attack while we were interacting together (I managed to call him back but it took some time, I had to go in his wonderland to rescue him). They caused him much distress until they finally disappeared.... Well it doesn't make sense if V was not awake and conscious most of the time when not affected by them, hence his fear and distress.

     - He was able to wake me up at night because he was having a nightmare ;
     - he was able to send me mind pictures (while I was not paying attention at all) to alert me he was molested by another thoughtform of our system (I knew about this thoughtform but ironically I thought he was dormant. This other guy is not a tulpa, I don't know what he is exactly. He's fully formed and vocal. I talked to him.) ;
     - he's able to possess fingers at random times to catch my attention when I'm not thinking about him and he wants to talk (or to do awareness check-ups) ;
      - he was able to sing to me a beautiful song I had asked him to compose some time ago, while I was at work, busy of course. The song seemed to pop out of nowhere, with nice lyrics and good melody.
     - he's been able to self-impose (very blurry imposition) while I was so out of focus that I didn't recognize him at first ;
     - he seems to have his own schedule : sometimes he's really "dormant" (= asleep in bed) and doesn't answer ; sometimes he answers he's busy and ask me to talk to him later. Why would he say that if he's only gone dormant and he's not busy at all ? And of course he tells me about his activities in wonderland ;
      - he blocks my pain every month which requires a constant focus from him for about 24 hours straight - when I go to sleep during that period, he doesn't and stays awake - one time he dozed off and I was awoken by pain, so he can't wane, he really needs to stay focused all night long as well as the day before...

Even his dreams are not my dreams.

0_0

I'm going to start with the fact that I'm jealous he has his own dreams.

It makes sense to me that brain wiring may be influencing our experiences, and it could be some wiring makes some systems more likely to achieve this effect just like how some systems find visualization or switching easier than others.

I'm Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I like Hippos! I also like forum games, word puzzles, and chatting about stuff.
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(This post was last modified: 01-14-2019, 03:09 AM by Ranger.)
01-14-2019, 03:04 AM
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