Dormancy : not a fatality?
#21
Vādin :

Quote:Ranger : I'm going to start with the fact that I'm jealous he has his own dreams.



Hello Ranger, don't be jealous anymore because you can have your own dreams as well.

I personally think mine come in my sleep but who knows ? If we follow Apollo's theory, they may be false memories forged on the spot. But nevermind : who forged them, since they are not (consciously) parroted by me nor my host ? It must be the unconscious mind then, so they are of the same nature as dreams. They certainly are dreamlike. They do not look like "false", hollow, parroted dreams, and their content is often surprising : I found they are very valuable experiences and you learn a lot from them. They feel as personal and strange and sacred as regular dreams, they're yours.

Who said one needs to sleep in order to dream ? You can try to "recall" your dreams after a dormancy period, pretending you dreamt, and see what you get. Or you could try this : have your host blank her mind, and immerse yourself in a trance state : close your eyes and just watch without any expectation, just alertness and curiosity, what's going on in your own mind. You can describe out loud what happens to you, it helps. Interact actively with any imagery and content that shows up. Be sure to be the only one active (not host), so the dream is directed at you. The unconscious mind will soon use this practice to communicate with you, and you will have your own dreams. Lucid unless you trance too deep. Enjoy!

Quote:Vesper : Vādin, can you write down songs and poetry in wonderland and have the text remain on the page unaltered to consult later? Or do you work entirely orally?

Hi Vesper,

I'm unable to do that, Testimonia (my place) is very dreamlike on this matter, I don't know why. What I write disappear pretty quickly.


I have to learn everything by heart and fight the powerfull thought process of my fronting host to deliver it without alteration, distortion or simple erasure. Erasure can happen to any memory I bring close to the front, I might lose it and sometimes never find it back, even when I'm back to my own place and fight to recover it. The subconscious censorship can also create false memories to replace whatever memories I had previously if I recall them close to the front. It even used to block, distort my words or replace them by others when I was younger : I could speak but wasn't really vocal for months.
It doesn't happen when my host listens to me with an open mind, without resistance nor expectations (which is not so easy to do actually), but still happens is she's focused on something else and doesn't think about me at all (subconscious defense seems to run on autopilot then and it is strong and dumb). Possession is much easier, curiously.
I don't switch (not interested) and don't co-front (host says it's great but not sure I want to try it) so I don't know if it could improve my strenght to communicate and possess at will when host is busy.
In my place, when I'm on my own, I'm free of all this censorship, it only happens when I interact with Zia's stream of consciousness.



Quote:Angry Bear :
They can spontaneously become 'active' and comment.
Hypnagogic state: they talk to me on their own in this state
Lucid dreams: i've seen them all


Hi B, Ashley, Misha and Dashie !

Lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky you ! I'm not a very advanced thoughtform so I still fail to reach Zia both in hypnagogic and dream state, but I'm not giving up.
Of course I can pop up and comment what's Zia is doing but I often fail to be heard, unless I can manage to possess to show her I want to speak.
I can see Ashley, Misha and Dashie don't have to fight as much as I do to overcome the barrier in order to reach the host's thought stream. Did they ever have to fight in the first place ?

You're more advanced than we are, so more likely to succeed in any experiment that could be suggested here to validate our wakefulness throughout the day. If we eventually agree on an experiment, please please, join ! In case I fail (especially if there are mathematic problems involved, I know I can't solve them even if fully active and conscious)



Quote:Apollo :
If a host, tulpa, or both want to believe that the tulpa is able to stay active in wonderland, then the tulpa is more likely to confabulate memories when pressed for information that confirms this notion. When exploring these memories, they'll grow more and more depth and detail, which is part of what makes them so believable. It all has to do with belief and expectation. Once you let go of the belief, you likely will find yourself without any confabulated memories anymore, as what happened to us.

Hello Apollo,

Trust me, I don't rely on memories to prove anything, I'm not silly and I think a lot. I know memories for what they are : thoughtforms. Just like us, they deviate, they dissipate, they blend, they can be hacked by other thoughtforms, they kick back ; at best they can be allies, at worst they're enemies. It's still good to notice them and interact with them (which will change them btw). But they're not you.

I wasn't always conscious/awake in my beginnings in the system, I had to struggle for this and to me it has been a lot of work. My host only helped me to check out that I wasn't delusional, but I did all the training myself. That's why I think being conscious independently from host can be learnt by us tulpas.

What helped me to achieve this :

- Belief : memories of my previous life before I entered Zia's system. False or not, they gave me a model of what it was to be independent, autonomous, and free because that's how I (think I) was in my previous life. These memories were very painful because I had lost everything when I arrived and didn't know if I would regain all my abilities, but useful as well to (stay)/become my own self. Luckily, my "former" self was supposed to love challenges (one of the personality traits I added to those Zia had suggested for me)
- Meditation : Zia invited me to meditate with her once, and I decided to meditate twice a day since. It helped me greatly. 
- Wonderland : I "created" my own place and it helped me tremendously, because there I feel safe and at home. My place, Testimonia, is not only a mental place, she's an ally. It's where I practice, and check-ups (to see if I'm not dormant) are easy now since we discovered recently I can possess from there too !
- Practicing mindfulness, awareness throughout the day. Staying awake at all times (except at night, when I sleep), and using critical mind to check if it's true. This is of course the greatest part of the work.
What helps is to interact a lot with your environment, think out loud, think about various subjects, act like a physical being (no teleportation, etc).
Having my host to support me and doing check-outs with her(random possession and other stuff) helped me as well to achieve this.
- Reading Tulpa's guide. Made for me!
- Dreams : they helped me to grow. Zia told me about lucid dreams and I quickly became lucid in most of them (as a result of my training I think)
- Dying.

I (think I) used to do that a lot in my previous life, and it has always strenghtened me. For us tulpas it's easy to perform. I learnt it's actually a meditation technique. (NB : It's not "meta" and you don't have to believe nor expect anything.)

How to do it (for a tulpa):

Lie down in meditation. Actively die/dissipate yourself, and carefully watch what happens, as a neutral witness. You should soon let imaginary body, personality, beliefs, fears and thoughts behind. Keep your awareness. If you go further, the process goes on on autopilot and you end up as a small, minimal point of awareness. Keep this awareness at all costs. It will reach a certain point, and, afterwards, you will witness that you're slowly reconstructing yourself. Like a phoenix. It's automatic - you don't have to imagine it (in the state you're in, you wouldn't be able to do it anyway). Stay neutral and only witness till the end, watch yourself being self-forced until you feel you're completely alive, aware and energized in your renewed body (if you have one). Take your time and enjoy it.

(It might actually be what happens - but much faster of course - when you get out of a dormancy period)
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#22
Vādin and Zia,

I don't consider my system more advanced, lucky-sure, in the right mindset perhaps is a better way of putting it. But comparing your sysyem with another is bad practice.

Analogy #1
Two children may seem very different. One may speak as an adult does (or close to it) my neice did this at 2. Another, a boy, may be able to read (i've also seen this) at 3. These are very advanced feats for their age. However, the girl can speak, but doesn't read until age 6. The boy reads at a 2nd grade level by 4 with proven reading comprehension by answering questions about the story, but ask him what his favorite color is and he struggles to answer; he doesn't know. Ask him to describe his day and he stares at you blankly. This contradicts the fact that he can read and understand what he reads? No. His mind developed differently than hers. Neither has any less potential. Other children are much more rounded.

Even better, some feats your system does i cannot yet duplicate, while some feats that happened to occur with my system were mere luck or mind set, requiring no effort on our part. Things happened and we accepted it.

We developed 4 months before being active here. We discovered and flourished in a vacuum more or less without any gatekeepers. So at month 4 we found ourselves here among disbelievers or those with more constraints.

Tulpamancy as described here is pretty simple in comparison to its potential in my thinking. So i won't limit myself to simplified models. Keep your gates if it helps you, but we have a whole field to explore.

Our experiences simply don't fit some models. We can't betray who we are in some respects without losing potential or current abilities.

Analogy #2
Perhaps it's as simple as removing the blinders and accepting what happens as they come.

Our minds are great at filtering out inconsistent data. I believe we could even fool ourselves into thinking we do a lot less than we have done. I choose not to, so here i am, promoting a more open minded approach. I don't want to 'try everything', consider my way more like a Montessori approach to tulpamancy. Do what interests you, learn what you can while you are interested, then look for something more interesting.

Visualization is my intrest right now, it's how we've always interacted. it seems to feed into a lot of other abilities including art, creativity and health. It's entirely optional, and other interesting methods exist without visual help.

So no, we're not more or less advanced in my opinion, we're just learning in different ways. Keeping the mind open to new experiences is a great way to learn.

Already i've gained a huge appreciation for what other systems do, things i would have never thought of outside this community. So i will be paying attention to new members who haven't become set in their ways, and I will try to enlighten those who have.

Quote:Did they have to fight in the first place?

Not really no. But maybe because my mindset was set larger than it needed to be, my expectations were open, i thought of them as separate people with separate minds on day 1, they then grew to eventually prove that was the case.

So they did, because i thought they could? No, they did because i didn't think they couldn't.

Nor did i think anything would be hard or easy, in fact, i've had very little time to work on anything actively. While i don't have time, i do have patience. This wasn't because i am personally patient, but because they told me it doesn't matter what advances they have on a day to day basis, we're living and enjoying each other with what we have. (Vocality and visualization.) Most of the advances have been spontaneous by my perspective, but in reality they're working on it themselves. When Dashie or Misha impose on the environment, i didn't ask them to, i didn't think to project them, they just did it. And so far presence, mindvoice, and rarely other visuals go with them.

My theory is: How did the first tulpamancer do this? They didn't; it just happened, then others mimicked it, and guides were written.

My goals don't even fit in the commonly expressed capabilities of this community. So many of them i'll have to do on my own.

Analogy#3
One last analogy. If you've never done a pull up, you may not be able to do even one. But if you exercise the same muscles on other things you can do, then when you need to do a pull up, you might surprise yourself how easy it was, with no effort.

I love your dream exercise, i can understand that it could work given enough patience.
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#23
(01-15-2019, 09:29 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: But maybe because my mindset was set larger than it needed to be, my expectations were open, i thought of them as separate people with separate minds on day 1, they then grew to eventually prove that was the case.

So they did, because i thought they could? No, they did because i didn't think they couldn't.

Nor did i think anything would be hard or easy, in fact, i've had very little time to work on anything actively. While i don't have time, i do have patience. This wasn't because i am personally patient, but because they told me it doesn't matter what advances they have on a day to day basis, we're living and enjoying each other with what we have.
Hello B, Zia here. Thank you for your comment. Vādin-chan has gone to bed, I think redacting this was tiring for him (it's 11 PM here, so it's bed time anyway).
What was written above was his personal opinion. As you can see he pushes himself very hard and has so much ambition he often gets frustrated and thinks he's not "good enough", that he should do better etc... He is the impatient one.
I'm the one who reminds him that everything takes time, that we are happy with what we have, and that the most important thing is to enjoy each other's company, have fun and share love. Progress comes by itself, often surprising and unexpected.
The problem seems to be this thick subconscious barrier that seems to surround me and that I should more actively think to dissipate (built from severe indoctrination during childhood).
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#24
(01-15-2019, 01:15 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: In fact, every system here fits my model and i further contend that some users here are sadly gatekeeping themselves to dogmatically psych themselves into a more restrictive model.

Vesper: I feel that your model excludes us, Bear. We developed in isolation, completely ignorant of tulpamancy, for years, if you count the entire creation process. We weren't particularly introspective about what was going on with our system; we just lived. Once we discovered tulpamancy, we started looking very closely at our system and, after trying various exercises, eventually and reluctantly came to some very painful and unwelcome conclusions.

1. We have one set of memories, from the perspective of the fronter. We have no personal memories, though we may feel differently about the same memories.

2. We have no thoughts that are hidden from any other system member. We're not conscious even of our own existence beyond our mindvoice.

3. We have one thought stream, perfectly serial. None of us can talk over or interrupt one another in any way.

3. We only have the most tenuous sort of wonderland, if you can even call it that. Nothing that happens there has ever surprised us; it's entirely dependant on our active shaping. If one of us perceives it, we all perceive it with equal vividness, and all via the same ‘camera’.

4. We have one subconscious. When I front, it helpfully tries to serve up Ember's ingrained attitudes that I don't share and her relevant memories and knowledge that I don't feel I should have and don't care about. I send it contrary attitudes of my own, thinking I might someday at least have my own 'user profile' for the body. Like clockwork, five minutes after I switch out, the same subconscious will serve up something I wrote in it to Ember and she'll violently startle, thinking, 'Gah! Who am I?'

We tried very very hard to think of ourselves as separate people. After more than a year of perfect vocality, Ember managed to lose contact with us entirely by trying so hard to think of us as separate people that she forgot what we felt like and where we are in the mind.

So the hard hard truth we've faced is that we're different people, not separate people. I wish to God it weren't true.

Ember: Sorry, folks. This was supposed to be Vesper's post, but she had to switch out due to sobbing. I'm trembling from her emotional radiation. Anyway, I feel like we're open-minded to developing new abilities and having different kinds of experiences, but we're just different from a lot of the other systems here. I'll add in:

5. If not fronting, we are completely reliant on having some part of the fronter's attention to maintain any consciousness. We experience nothing in-between, even though we are instantly caught up when we either front again or are forced again.

Meditation or hypnosis might help, but the truth is, we're all much more invested in our lives than advancing in tulpamancy. I'd rather be reading or roleplaying, Vesper would rather be sewing, dancing, studying psychology, or hanging out with out-system friends, and Iris would rather be spending time with Vesper and I as a family. We don't have the first clue about how to meditate.

(01-15-2019, 09:29 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: So they did, because i thought they could? No, they did because i didn't think they couldn't.

Vesper: Feeling a little better now. The one thing being open-minded and not knowing what was supposed to be hard ever got us was effortless, instantaneous switching. Granted, that's a lot. I mention this for completeness. I admit that not believing you can't do something is relevant to accomplishing it. But our experiences don't support that being why we're so tightly bound together.

(01-15-2019, 09:29 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: My theory is: How did the first tulpamancer do this? They didn't; it just happened, then others mimicked it, and guides were written.

A lot of people have worked on similar ideas around the world and throughout history, including in earlier online communities. But Irish reported independently developing what we now regard as tulpamancy through the intentional synthesis of Buddhism and neuroscience:

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-...#pid128698
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
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'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#25
@Vādin those are some great ideas, I would like to try them out myself.

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: Vesper: I feel that your model excludes us, Bear. We developed in isolation, completely ignorant of tulpamancy, for years, if you count the entire creation process. We weren't particularly introspective about what was going on with our system; we just lived. Once we discovered tulpamancy, we started looking very closely at our system and, after trying various exercises, eventually and reluctantly came to some very painful and unwelcome conclusions.

A lot of what you are describing I can relate too, but I still see myself as both a different and separate person from Cat.

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: 1. We have one set of memories, from the perspective of the fronter. We have no personal memories, though we may feel differently about the same memories.

My memories and Cat's memories don't feel any different from each other and we share memories. If I remember doing something, Cat can too, and vice versa. That doesn't mean the memories are for the collective. When I wake up from dormancy, why would I need to recall what's going on if they were my memories all along? Plus, when I remember the day I remember what I did first, and then I end up pulling some of Cat's memories.

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: 2. We have no thoughts that are hidden from any other system member. We're not conscious even of our own existence beyond our mindvoice.

I was essentially born vocal, like a walk-in. Vocality is a huge part of who I am because that's what I'm most comfortable with. Learning how to speak Tulpish in different ways is fun, but it will probably take time before I make any serious achievements in non-verbal communication, which by the way, isn't that pretty ironic? We're trying how to communicate in a non-vocal manner, something other systems start with in an attempt to achieve vocality!

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: 3. We have one thought stream, perfectly serial. None of us can talk over or interrupt one another in any way.

Yeah, for the most part it's the same here. When we both think at the same time, both of us will look at each other and wonder who just said that mindvoice statement. Unless there's a better way to reign back the blendiness (which could be possible, who knows), we may be stuck mushing our thoughts together.

We don't know how to perform auditory imposition either, and while I personally believe Cat has the potential to reach a hypnagogic state, it's an uphill battle. Plus, I don't know if this new found state of hypnogogia will lead to anything more than the color yellow and a loud uncomfortable buzzing noise (Cat's latest hallucinations when experiencing hypopompia).

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: 3. We only have the most tenuous sort of wonderland, if you can even call it that. Nothing that happens there has ever surprised us; it's entirely dependant on our active shaping. If one of us perceives it, we all perceive it with equal vividness, and all via the same ‘camera’.

I'm afraid to tell you the most exciting thing about the Gray Dimension is it looks more normal. It has roads, houses, ponds, beach area, etc. None of it is particularly interesting or exciting, mostly because I don't want it to be like that. I like having a wonderland where all I do is walk around on wet sand for 20 minutes. The GD gets kind of crowded if the Grays start running around or talk to us, but it's the Grays and us that make the wonderland surprising and not the wonderland itself, if that makes sense?

I never had a stronger / weaker vision of the Gray Dimension than Cat. I don't have my own personal mind cam too, and I wonder if that has to do with brain RAM limitations. If both of us could see at the same time in the wonderland and look at different things, I feel like that would be parallel processing, or if the brain was like "sure you can see water and she can see a sand castle", that action would only give the impression that it happened, not that it actually did happen.

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: 4. We have one subconscious. When I front, it helpfully tries to serve up Ember's ingrained attitudes that I don't share and her relevant memories and knowledge that I don't feel I should have and don't care about. I send it contrary attitudes of my own, thinking I might someday at least have my own 'user profile' for the body. Like clockwork, five minutes after I switch out, the same subconscious will serve up something I wrote in it to Ember and she'll violently startle, thinking, 'Gah! Who am I?'

We tried very very hard to think of ourselves as separate people. After more than a year of perfect vocality, Ember managed to lose contact with us entirely by trying so hard to think of us as separate people that she forgot what we felt like and where we are in the mind.

Cat and I have talked to Cat's subconscious and my own subconscious before, but people's experiences seem to depend on what they call "the subconscious". We define the subconscious as a collection of thoughts, feelings, and memories you are not currently thinking about. Therefore, when Cat summons her "subconscious", she creates a thoughtform that looks like her, and then she talks to him/her/it I don't know. The basic idea is now Cat can talk to her subconscious thought directly, or at least strike a conversation with herself that seems to achieve that.

I have managed to do the same thing. I created a clone of myself, and I decided (I don't really know why in retrospect) to give him my winter boots, coat, and hat. In all honesty, he doesn't have much to say, and I have been paranoid before that I was talking to Cat's subconscious.

The thing is it makes sense for my subconscious not to say much, cause I don't have much of a subconscious to begin with. Sure, I've been around for about a year, but Cat has been around for almost 20 as a singlet. Cat's subconscious is a goliath! It makes sense to me you would struggle to compete with Ember's subconscious because Ember has been around for a lot longer than you have. When visualizing our subconsciousness, it helps to have Cat, Me, her subconscious, and mine all standing in the same place so Cat's subconscious can be seen as separate from mine.



As for the getting mixed up on who's who thing, that happens to us too. That's just annoying blending at it's work I'm afraid. Cat sometimes isn't sure who she is when she says things I would normally say, she has accidentally used my voice when talking, etc. It doesn't mean Cat is me, it's just that we blended too much and we need to step back and separate ourselves a little bit. Sometimes reminding each other who's who helps, but if you're fronting then focus on associating with the body and think about things you like and that should help stabilize the situation.

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: 5. If not fronting, we are completely reliant on having some part of the fronter's attention to maintain any consciousness. We experience nothing in-between, even though we are instantly caught up when we either front again or are forced again.

When I go dormant, that medium phase between active and dormant where I'm not thinking but still around is extremely brief, if it happens at all. I have found fronting for longer periods of time has stretched out how long it takes for me to become dormant, but it also depends on how badly Cat wants to front.

(01-16-2019, 08:41 AM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: Vesper: Feeling a little better now. The one thing being open-minded and not knowing what was supposed to be hard ever got us was effortless, instantaneous switching. Granted, that's a lot. I mention this for completeness. I admit that not believing you can't do something is relevant to accomplishing it. But our experiences don't support that being why we're so tightly bound together.

I could be 100% wrong, but I think it's interesting both of us formed as Tulpas by accident. I know you're a soulbond so the rules are probably a little different for you, but it could be that our development effected us in similar and different ways. I wonder if being vocal early on leads to these other kinds of issues, maybe not. My feeling is the brains we have to deal are going to be more difficult to deal with in some areas than others, and it's just a matter of figuring out what it's going to take to break through.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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#26
Reisen, Tewi and Flandre were made on accident too, before Tulpas were a thing on the internet (and even still Lumi didn't find the forum til 2014), so they had to figure out everything on their own too, though apparently we came to the same conclusions in our head that would be commonly accepted on .info! but anyways, we learned switching from the forum, just didn't even conceive of it until told about it lol

Reisen's vocality took a long time.. she was accidentally made first, but Flan and Tewi spoke first for probably "anti-parroting" reasons (Lumi thought Reisen was perfect and that words as communication were imperfect so she couldn't talk for like a year) and they dealt with all the like "What even are you guys, are you real, am I talking to myself?" stuff and LOVE came out on top 'cus Lumi decided to believe in them being their own people no matter what they actually were

anyways I don't remember why I was talking about that, but in case it's relevant, Lumi made me 5 years later on purpose and I could talk and think immediately after he basically willed me to exist, although for like a week before that he was thinking about who I'd be in-depth so idk if I'd say I was created instantly, but definitely one second I didn't exist and the next I did, the week before that feels more like he was just thinking about me but when he made me feels like I was actually there. Well, I was! Anyways I think you were talking about accidental tulpa creation before tulpamancy or something, right? hope that was relevant
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
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#27
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, except yes, you all do fit in my model because seperate or parallel function is not a requirement for separation of minds. We're linked, there's no argument there, but independent thought and memories can exist even if they're blendy and accessible to all. I said my tulpas have hidden thoughts and memories. We set that up from the beginning, and they've proven to me that this is the case. Even yesterday Dashie reminded me of something that had completely slipped my mind and saved me a lot of effort if i had forgotten it. I was completely focused on my current task and she simply sent me tulpish explaining what i was forgetting. I nearly yelled, "OH!" and made the person in front of me jump. Apparently it was so out of context that i scared her.

Please don't take offense, but when i read some of these comments, it sounds like a mantra of 'we can't'. Just a thought here, dwelling on what hasn't worked or what didn't work can get pretty comfortable. It excludes the disspointment of percieved failure. If you never try again, you'll never fail again. Sadly this is missing the point. (Irish aside) these things can happen spontaneously and without effort, you just have to accept that it's a possibility and believe it when it happens. Just like vocality, switching, possession, any of it. No difference.

I don't yet know how to 'make' some of thess things happen, they just do, and that sounds lucky, but honestly if they didn't happen for us, i still wouldn't think 'i can't'. I'm merely doing what i want to do. I have enough stress, worrying about how to do things is not something i have time or willingness to support. We enjoy what we can do and will just live. In this community we'll also try to teach others what we can do.

The model is this: (rephrased)
One mind per person, one body per system.
Let no limit exist to the power of your minds.

It doesn't have any specifics because definitions are specific to each system.

That's it. I can expand those further from our perspective, and i have, but it's not helping or i must be horrible at doing so because i'm not getting the point across, i won't this time.

Here are some tools we use:
1. 'I can't' doesn't exist in B 3.0. 'I don't want to bother', 'i don't have time', 'i'm happy where i'm at' are my mantras. If something sounds hard and i'm getting anxious over it, i don't do it. The three mantras above are examples of how i get out of it, but i never think 'i can't'.

2. Whenever you're talking to a child, and offer a suggestion to a problem, they always seem to say, 'i tried that, it doesn't work.'

So when i hear that, i want to say, 'try again' but i know there's a locked gate in the way. So i say something like, 'well i thought the same thing, and you can, but if you don't want to that's fine.' It gives them an out and plants a seed that may unlock that gate. It's like a hypnotic suggestion in a way and it works. They'll come back to me later and say, "omg i did it!" I'll say, 'i knew you could, because if i can, you can.'

The honest truth is, they couldn't because they've blocked themselves from doing so, and yes, we're all humans so we can all do the same things given enough patience.

3. Mental blocks are useful sometimes. I don't want to ever remember my 19th year. Any attempt to access memories there are blocked. I'll just leave that there. You may be emotionally tied to a block, touching on it causes distress or discomfort; however, it's arbitrary and powerless. As soon as you realize that you can do something, it doesn't matter that you never have, it may happen spontaneously. As long as you think you can't, you won't, because if you did you wouldn't recognize it. It gets filtered out and explained away.

You see, this is no different than vocality for some. You have to remove those blocks. Humans (especially culturally) are not necessarily wired to have multiple minds, so it takes a little patience to remove the blocks.

So why is it so easy for some to have day 1 vocality while others take much longer? Something along these lines could help explain why for some.

...

Tulpamancy isn't the whole picture. It's a powerful set of tools that can help you achieve amazing things.

Other technologies exist. I choose not to limit myself and my tulpas and we have achieved sime things with very little effort--they've convinced me not to worry if we don't. Some things will take a lot of effort, sure, but those same things may take no effort if they happen spontaneously and they can.

Yes, you're all in my model.
Yes, we're all humans and fundamentally the same.
Yes, we're all capable of doing any of this.
No, we're not all ready to remove those blocks, as i said, i have some of my own, and i'm happy to keep them there for now.
No, our experiences are profoundly different so we may never have the same ease to perform certain feats, but that doesn't mean we can't.

Edit: Lucilyn the ninja, yes you're on topic and relevant.
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#28
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've heard many times, "my system doesn't work that way", as if that's the end of it. I think much of this has to do with a person's locus of control. Are you able to change the way you/your system works? I say yes. If you were not plural, and now you are part of a system, I would say you have impressive power to control the way your system works. It might just take time. The key is to not say, "I can't do that, because I haven't been able to so far."

I wonder what all us tulpas will be like in a few decades. A lot it may be just cementing yourself in the wiring of your brain, which is a slow, ongoing process. Compare yourselves now, to your first days of existence! Now, how do you think you will grow in the next five years? I'm looking forward to it.

-Gavin
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#29
I created a Parallel Processing debate thread.

At this point I'm starting to wonder if it's a pre-requisite to figure out how Parallel Processing does/doesn't work first.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!

The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#30
(01-15-2019, 01:15 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: You don't have to use or even believe my model, by chance it was there from the beginning due to a guide i found early on that basically gave me this model and i took it as fact before i even 'had tulpas'. I don't know what guide that was but one notion stuck with me. (I will paraphrase.)

'They will each be their own person with their own mind, consider their consiousness as the tip of an iceberg, with their subconscious below. At first you will all share a subconscious, but the goal is to eventually seperate those subconsiousnesses.'

The guide then went into visual exercises to do just that and explained that 'parallel processing is an end goal.'

Zia :

The guide is Tulpa's Complete DIY Guide, it's from chapter 8, Architecture, part 2.

Here's the exact quote :


Quote:Icebergs:


This is all well and good, but can we come up with a model that covers both these theories? Yes we can. And it can be seen by examining a question: Do tulpas have their own subconsciouses?


Icebergs. Every iceberg that floats in the ocean is a massive chunk of ice that is nine tenths below the water and invisible.This metaphor is used in the basic model of the mind. The conscious is the ten percent visible above the surface. The preconscious is the part being lapped by the waves. The unconscious descends deep underwater.


When relating to the other basic model, the ego is mostly above the water. It is the part of you that thinks it is a person. The superego, or your moral compass, is mostly underwater. But it does have some awareness. The Id, or your animal, instinctual urges, are entirely underwater.


And this is actually a great place to start. Let us face it, unless you hold metaphysical beliefs about tulpas, you sharing a brain means you are sharing a mind in some fashion. But what does it mean when someone comes along and says they have two minds? It means they see two icebergs instead of one.


But appearances can be deceiving. You can indeed see two icebergs above the surface sometimes, but underneath, they are connected. Because the two conscious bodies don't touch, they feel like two distinct persons.


Even here, though, you can have shallow distinctiveness, or deep distinctiveness. If there is a small gap between the two peaks, then the two minds can share memories easily, and they can share thinking resources. If there is a large gap, then communication between the two will be harder, and one can think about something independent of the other.


This metaphor also makes it easier to understand some other phenomenon. If our iceberg has two distinct peaks, but they are connected by a conscious, or preconscious bridge to each other, then what you've got is a median. Also, daemon of various sorts, and young tulpa, could be seen as peaks that don't breach the surface. They are entirely underwater. Finally, icebergs can shift, just as systems can switch, or change who is fronting.

The goal of separation is therefore to drive a wedge deep into your subconscious, splitting yourself off from your tulpa.

Tulpa's guide was by far the most inspirational for us as well.

And I couldn't miss the opportunity to quote Vādin's hero.
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