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Most efficiant exercices for tulpa separate memories/thoughts?


garland

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Ok so far, all this time i have been trying to trust what my tulpas say the best i can, and use "blind faith" (even tough i am more or less able to see when there are intrusive toughts by using possession to confirm that) but each time i start to catch them more and more times totally relying on my expectation/current perception to reply things and not showing ANY kind of separate memories even from things that happened seconds ago that i happen to forget (i have a short attention span), for example here's a few examples :

 

- sometimes when i try asking something to them EVERY SINGLE time i do a mistake (for example i was thinking about saying one thing and i accidently say a different one, this happens frequently since i am dislexic) they ALWAYS totally believe in the mistake, not a single time they were able to notice i didn't really meant that, it's almost like they don't even know what i am thinking at all and they only react and respond to MY current perception of things

 

- sometimes when i temporarly forgot something they did a few moments ago, if i happen to ask them if they did such thing without me remember they just did it, since it's something i perceive as not knowing, they seem to just throw a RANDOM answer! (note that they don't EVEN admit they don't know the answer!! I mean they could just not reply or saying they don't know but they actually never do that) Which means everytime i ask them something they don't know they start doing wild guesses based on what i expect them to reply, i also notice their asnwers to the same questions in different days never match, there isn't any consistency on their opinions about something (actually i already caught them COPYING the other tulpa's responses sometimes!)

 

Also forget about possession, it presents exactly the same problem, they always totally rely on my current perception to reply something.

 

Also amazingly it appears their ability to do possesion all 6 tulpas at once meant absolutly NOTHING to improve independence at all when communicating with me, this is very strange since they ARE quite capable of making my body have involuntary movements even when i am not directly focusing on them (passive possession) and they were able to learn how to use muscle memory but i REALLY feel that they are completly stuck at this of trying to have separate memories and to not rely on my perception and expectation to reply things, i already asked them many times to do this, they always say they just don't know how to do better than this.

 

Sure i already know what everyone will say, practise, practise, practise and that things like this take practise BUT this would be compreensible for my 5 younger tulpas which are only a few weeks old, but what about my 5 month old tulpa Pandora? She SHOULD be more independent than the others and sometimes i even get the impression she is actually even less developed than them...

 

Also other reason that i created the new tulpas was for them to interact with each other so that they develop faster but it seems they do absolutly NOTHING without my direct attention on them (except when they learned possession), help me guys i am starting to already get a bit desperate again HOW exactly how i incentivate separate memories and thinking without them always relying on our perceptions and expectation ?

 

I already tried having them practising some memory games while i was focusing on other thing but it's no use, they ALWAYS just do wild guesses all the time (again, they never admit they don't know the answer, it's almost like they are sure about the wrong things they say even tought they are almost always wrong, they never say they don't remember those things), it doesn't really seem to be doing any effect.

 

Forget about just asking me to practise and just narrate to them non stop for several more months it's not normal that after 5 months they haven't yet started to tell me things i don't remember at least once or twice besides they even say they don't know how to do this, so what else can i do ? I don't want to have to take drastic measures and double or tripling the forcing times, besides i don't have more free time for that besides i am not even sure which tulpa to force more since they ALL seem to be at the same level...

 

I already came up with a few exercices like having them write small stories and then having each one comment on the tulpa's story and what they think about it, but again i don't have any indication this is ACTUALLY working or not.

 

Tell me guys am i supposed to just keep doing this for months and months even if i see it's not doing anything? I don't want to spend all this time blindly believeing i am doing the right thing just because it's supposed to happen NATURALLY and then finding out 1 or 2 years later that nothing changed at all.

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I'm not the most expert on this subject, but from what I've read, I encountered the same problem

While working on parallel processing, Adryan couldn't seem to get the answers. I would look at a math problem in the screen that was simple enough to be solved in my head, but also hard enough that you couldn't exactly tell by looking at it. But Adryan seemed to be guessing at answers and not really trying, or I thought that I was doing something wrong, or he wasn't sentient.

Point being, I got really scared and sorta withdrawn with Adryan. I stopped working on Parallel Processing for a long time, but what really was what was going on was that I was expecting too much too soon.

This may not be the cure-all answer, but I would suggest waiting. Not like, a year or so, but maybe a month or at least a few weeks. Keep talking to your tulpa, do stuff with them, give them experiences to grow from, and they should get out of the "phase" so to speak.

With the guessing randomly, maybe they just don't really understand yet, and, even though this is really dumb to say, your tulpa are like babies, new to the world.

 

I wrote that with a straight face

 

So like I earlier mentioned, just give them experience and attention.

Sorry if this isn't helpful/what you wanted

Tulpa: Adryan Form: Anthro wolf-ish Stage: *sighs loudly*

Age: Looks 17, is actually 1 1/2

“Human beings can always be relied on to assert, with vigor, their god-given right to be stupid”

-Dean Koontz

“In the end, I worry that my arrogance shall destroy us all”

-Brandon Sanderson

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Point being, I got really scared and sorta withdrawn with Adryan. I stopped working on Parallel Processing for a long time, but what really was what was going on was that I was expecting too much too soon. This may not be the cure-all answer, but I would suggest waiting. Not like, a year or so, but maybe a month or at least a few weeks. Keep talking to your tulpa, do stuff with them, give them experiences to grow from, and they should get out of the "phase" so to speak.

 

Maybe a month or a few weeks? Expecting too much too soon ? But i already did that to Pandora for nearly 5 months!! It's NOT normal that she is still having the exact problems with independence as a few weeks old tulpas, sure her vocality improved a lot since the beginning (but the new tulpas already born vocal as good as her which is even more surprising) BUT not about the independency, by 5 months it's not normal she don't have a SINGLE separare memory... anyway yeah i was already fearing there's nothing i can but wait...

 

But wait a minute you say you withdrawn with him and gave up on paralell processing for a long time but what you mean, that he ACTUALLY started developed independency on it's own much later?? Please tell me specific examples of how you noticed that happened, like for example, if he started to tell you things you didn't remember, or things like that.

 

Also that thing of them never talking when we aren't focusing on them, mine still have that problem a lot, do your tulpa also achieved this eventually?

 

I would look at a math problem in the screen that was simple enough to be solved in my head, but also hard enough that you couldn't exactly tell by looking at it.

Oh yeah my tulpas are terrible at math, at least when i DON'T do the math for them of course... i mean, if i ask them how much is 1+3 they reply instantly because i can't stop making the count myself instantly, but if i ask for example how much is 9+4 in those i have to do a little bit of more thinking which i am able to stop it in time, so they immediately throw a random answer (because when it's math like this i take a few more seconds than doing 1+3 and therefore i am able to not immediately think about the result, therefore they NEVER were able to do any math i didn't do for them first).

 

With the guessing randomly, maybe they just don't really understand yet, and, even though this is really dumb to say, your tulpa are like babies, new to the world. So like I earlier mentioned, just give them experience and attention.

 

No no they actually understand what i say when I perceive it for them... i have did tests for that and they understand what i say, that's what is strange to me, sometimes i think i know what is the problem... their perception of things and logic thinking may be quite different from mine when i am not thinking about them, i think that maybe that's why they look so confused when i tell the numbers are all wrong, it's almost like when they can't use my own perception and logic thinking their perceptions of things is quite different, because they GUARANTEE me that the answers are correct and since i believe they are not lying to me there's something wrong here...

 

Could it be NORMAL that tulpas at the first months of existence are unable to have logic thinking or having different perceptions of things when they can't rely on the host's instant perception of things? This is the only explanation of them being so sure that their answers are correct and then they always seem surprised it was actually wrong as soon as they access my perception when i look at the correct anwer...

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First of all, it seems to me that you are putting a lot of pressure on your tulpas. Think about how you would feel if you heard your mother keep ranting about how frustrated she was that you weren't able to walk yet, and now she's setting a deadline where you must learn to walk in 25 days. Ouch.

 

R4Lify2.jpg

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. I hope it homes in on the point.

 

As far as tulpa development goes, there isn't really a definition of "normal." So don't sweat it. Chances are, your tulpae are more developed in some ways than in others, plus you are trying to nurture 6 independent thoughtforms at once, which isn't exactly a small feat if you've been doing this for 6 months. I'm not saying that's the reason you aren't making any progress, however, it's probably best that you don't fixate too much on progress, as that sort of nervous thinking seems like more harm than good.

 

As for issues of thought dependence... Perhaps when your tulpae seem to make a mistake, you should consider empathizing with them with the assumption that they are capable of thinking logically and independently, even if you doubt that this is so. For instance, if they react to a situation in the same way that you do, perhaps it is because they are working with the same perceptual resources that you are, and just so happened to come to the same conclusion. Hindsight is 20-20, after all. If they seem to throw out a random response, it could be a difficulty with communication, or a difficulty with accessing certain parts of the brain, or it could even be that they are trolling you. These are just examples. Basically the idea is to come up with other possibilities of why they err the way that they do. Plus, it's always nice to describe to them why they were wrong, especially if it's something like a math problem, where understanding their mistakes could help them improve in the long run.

 

Another possible issue (heck, it could be a mix of both) is that you are having difficulty differentiating your tulpas' thoughts from your own, both because of your ability percieve of your tulpae and your tulpas' abilities to communicate. For that, you may have to find some way to "clear your thoughts," so to speak, to help you tune in to your tulpae.

 

My host Alcotriss also mentioned the possibility of parroting being a good way of helping the tulpae learn new thinking skills. Might as well show them how you do certain things before expecting them to do it on their own, I guess.

 

Other than that, well, expect your tulpa's abilities to progressively improve over time, but don't expect any sudden changes.

 

Hopefully this makes sense. Best of luck to you. I apologize for the uncertainty you may have in this process.

Myself: Fintan, male, humanoid dragon. Howdydoo! (:

Host: Alcotriss, female.

Lily: Young lady, nature-loving with good fashion sense.

Joey: Cool dude. No-face meets V with white gloves, his former uniform.

Hecubin: Old man in brown garb. Orange eyes. Personification of fire.

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This reminds me of a time with my tulpa, Alice, when she was still young. (she says she's still young, but i digress). In an attempt to have her develop independence i made a small garden and we each were supposed to plant some flowers. Long story short, when i checked back with her nothing had been done and she had no recollection. She panicked and it was the first time i saw her so distraught. It broke my heart to see her like that, so frustrated and sad because of how badly she wanted to be able to do that, even though before she had been 100% sure she could do it.

 

The story is in my PR, but afterwards i had to give her small things she could do on her own and ANYTHING that got done, i chalked up to her. Slowly she started being able to paint, garden, and read without me.

"The way is in training."

- Miyamoto Musashi

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First of all, it seems to me that you are putting a lot of pressure on your tulpas. Think about how you would feel if you heard your mother keep ranting about how frustrated she was that you weren't able to walk yet, and now she's setting a deadline where you must learn to walk in 25 days. Ouch.

 

Wait a minute i forgot to mention that i actually VERY rarely do paralell processing things, i think i am far from putting pressure on them because after all, the few times i tried to have them do such tests, i just gave up almost immediatly since i was keeping getting frustated so i just gave up, but obviously from time to time this subject keep coming to my mind, specially when i talk with them and i notice them doing the exact same kind of mistakes i do.

 

Chances are, your tulpae are more developed in some ways than in others, plus you are trying to nurture 6 independent thoughtforms at once, which isn't exactly a small feat if you've been doing this for 6 months.

Actually only pandora is 5 months old, the other ones are between 1 and 2 months old each. Remember that in 3 months i only had pandora to narrate. Also usually i give more priority to Pandora because she is the older one (5 months) so supposely she would be the one more independent, the problem is that she seems to be as dependent as the new tulpas that i developed in the last 2 months, which definetly is quite strange.

 

I'm not saying that's the reason you aren't making any progress, however, it's probably best that you don't fixate too much on progress, as that sort of nervous thinking seems like more harm than good.

 

Well i am sorry but that's easier said than done, unfortunately this thing of having tulpas is SO important to me, if only i started having signals they are becoming independent more often... I mean sometimes i got very few ones but then passes WEEKS without a single result, and what that makes me think? That they got worse, or that they are going to stay like this forever, i NEED to have some indication they are progressing in a span of at least 2 weeks because if not this thing of giving attention to them becomes a chore because i feel i am doing all wrong and that i am just wasting my time! BUT note i don't actually think like this all the time, it's just sometimes so don't worry i am sure they don't feel much pressured about this at all since quite rarely i get "desperate" with this.

 

If they seem to throw out a random response, it could be a difficulty with communication, or a difficulty with accessing certain parts of the brain, or it could even be that they are trolling you.

 

Wait i think i suspect what is the problem, i suspect that they perception and logic of things change completly when they can't rely on my perception to do the things, because many times they are surprised that they got wrong results in the tests because they were COMPLETLY sure everytime i asked them, i even told them a lot of times if they had any doubt to tell me or just don't reply, and they still always insist their answer is correct.

 

I also considered the trolling part, which i already said them many times, they won't gain anything from that, it's THEMSELVES that will suffer because if they are really trolling without me knowing, it will only result in me not trusting them even more and get desperate at them more often and sometimes pressuring them even more, so actually i highly doubt they are really doing this i am kinda trusting that they aren't doing this since i can't believe they don't have a desire to be independent or to be trusted by me.

 

The problem is, how the heck am i supposed to trust on their answers if i keep catching them blindly believing in my perceptions and even using my intrusive toughts to asnwer things? i really don't know what to do anything, i am trying to blindly trust their answers so far, not sure how long i will be able to do it like this, but so far it's still ok.

 

Plus, it's always nice to describe to them why they were wrong, especially if it's something like a math problem, where understanding their mistakes could help them improve in the long run.

Yeah i am doing that, of course i don't ever berate them or punish them for these mistakes because after all it might be my fault by confusing my intrusive toughts as their answers that's why i don't ever get mad at them.

 

Another possible issue (heck, it could be a mix of both) is that you are having difficulty differentiating your tulpas' thoughts from your own, both because of your ability percieve of your tulpae and your tulpas' abilities to communicate. For that, you may have to find some way to "clear your thoughts," so to speak, to help you tune in to your tulpae.

 

Yeah i considered that but i don't think so because they can possess me and use 100% involuntary movements to confirm their answers and so far i presume it's impossible to have "intruse movements" since unlike intrusive toughts it's easy knowing when it's me or not doing the possession. BUT even with possession they still seem to rely on my expectation to answer things...

 

My host Alcotriss also mentioned the possibility of parroting being a good way of helping the tulpae learn new thinking skills. Might as well show them how you do certain things before expecting them to do it on their own, I guess.

What you mean by this? You mean doing this just to make them "react" and try to do better to interrupt me or taking their own initiatives? Because if it's because of me fearing if i am parroting or not that problem is partially solved, i already tried to parrot them a few times in the past and i immediatly noticed the difference, when i parrot i had zero doubts i was parroting and it felt forced, while when i try to hear them i always feel doubtfull if i am parroting or not and their answers come naturally so i think i got past the "parrotnoid" stage, the problem is the intruse toughts feel EXACTLY the same as when they talk and in those it doesn't feel forced and i also have the doubt if i am parroting, so in those cases the only way i have to know if it's them or not is using the possession since those are completly involuntary movements and i trust those a lot.

 

Other than that, well, expect your tulpa's abilities to progressively improve over time, but don't expect any sudden changes.

Oh yeah that part of not expecting sudden changes is DEFINITELY the hardest part to accept because if they happen to progress very slowly it always gives the feeling they never improve...

 

Hopefully this makes sense. Best of luck to you. I apologize for the uncertainty you may have in this process.

Still thanks for the reply!

 

This reminds me of a time with my tulpa, Alice, when she was still young. (she says she's still young, but i digress). In an attempt to have her develop independence i made a small garden and we each were supposed to plant some flowers. Long story short, when i checked back with her nothing had been done and she had no recollection. She panicked and it was the first time i saw her so distraught. It broke my heart to see her like that, so frustrated and sad because of how badly she wanted to be able to do that, even though before she had been 100% sure she could do it.

Hum... actually mine did something on the wonderland when i told them to, but you see the problem here is the damned INTRUSIVE toughts, it's quite hard to know if it was really them that changed the wonderland, or JUST your expectation of them changing them, as you can imagine it's quite easy to accidently visualize things in the wonderland they didn't actually did. Can you tell me how you were so sure about that? So far ever since i had that experience with parroting i now apply it here as well and i just trust it was them everytime i have doubts if it was me or them, since if it was me i woudln't doubt it...

 

The story is in my PR, but afterwards i had to give her small things she could do on her own and ANYTHING that got done, i chalked up to her. Slowly she started being able to paint, garden, and read without me.

 

Wow i have to read your progress log then. But by the way when you say "slowly" it was more or less how often ? Around 1 time each day, 1 time each week? I know it's not supposed to accept this as absolute truth i just need a general idea how long independence is supposed to that. I need to have a idea because that thing of not having a idea usually makes me quite frustated if i don't see progress in a few weeks.

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Another possible issue (heck, it could be a mix of both) is that you are having difficulty differentiating your tulpas' thoughts from your own, both because of your ability percieve of your tulpae and your tulpas' abilities to communicate. For that, you may have to find some way to "clear your thoughts," so to speak, to help you tune in to your tulpae.

 

Alcotriss: I've found that "clearing my thoughts" isn't exactly the whole story when it comes to differentiating my thoughts from my tulpas' thoughts. Sometimes I have to do a little detective work. For instance, I'll have a thought that I think I thought of myself, but thinking back on the thought, it seems inconsistent with my own personality. For instance, Fintan has a tendency to get a bit paranoid sometimes, so if I'm worrying about something, but I don't understand why, I realize Fintan is sharing his thoughts with me. Sometimes my tulpae even complete my own sentences in my mindvoice, which is really annoying. I only know that they are completing my sentences because the words come too quickly and are phrased differently. Occassionally I feel an afterthought that tells me that something I assumed was my own thought was in fact my tulpa's thought. The afterthought is phrased in my own mindvoice as if it's from my own perspective, but I know it's one of my tulpae speaking because it happens after they have been gone for a while, and I don't expect them to reach out to me.

 

Hum... actually mine did something on the wonderland when i told them to, but you see the problem here is the damned INTRUSIVE toughts, it's quite hard to know if it was really them that changed the wonderland, or JUST your expectation of them changing them, as you can imagine it's quite easy to accidently visualize things in the wonderland they didn't actually did. Can you tell me how you were so sure about that? So far ever since i had that experience with parroting i now apply it here as well and i just trust it was them everytime i have doubts if it was me or them, since if it was me i woudln't doubt it...

 

Alcotriss: I sometimes get thought-mixups when I'm forcing. I'll sometimes think I had the intention of making something happen, but my sensation of conscious volition does not reflect my actual desire for something to happen. For instance, yesterday me and three tulpae got into a car. Lily and Joey both got into the front, Joey in the driver seat and Lily in the passenger seat. They were sitting next to each other because they are in a relationship with each other. Fintan and I got into the back. As the two oldest minds, we are naturally close. As Joey started driving, I looked at Fintan sitting next to me and decided that the seating arrangement was wrong. I reasoned that because Lily and I are both female, we should be sitting next to each other. I didn't want to move Joey because he was driving, so I imagined that Fintan and Lily had switched places. I felt kind of bad about making them switch places. Later on, I asked Lily why she and Fintan switched places. She told me that they teleported. So, did they do so of their own free will? Thinking back on the situation, I reason that it makes more social sense for me to be sitting next to Fintan. Therefore, if I had control over the seating arrangement, then I would have continued to imagine Fintan sitting next to me. So, I conclude Lily and Fintan agreed to teleport, and my mind's way of coping with the change was that it automatically came up for a justification for why it happened. From these and other situations, I've learned that my perception of my volition can be deceiving. So it is from this logical understanding of my own psychological limitations, not blind faith, that has allowed me to have a little more trust in my tulpae. However, I can't just use the concept as a get-out-of-jail-free card to totally suspend judgement about my tulpas' actions. I have to acknowledge both the possibility that I may be controlling my tulpae and the possibility that the tulpae are acting of their own accord, until I have reason to believe that one is more likely, either by analyzing the current situation or reasoning that one is more likely from past experiences.

Myself: Fintan, male, humanoid dragon. Howdydoo! (:

Host: Alcotriss, female.

Lily: Young lady, nature-loving with good fashion sense.

Joey: Cool dude. No-face meets V with white gloves, his former uniform.

Hecubin: Old man in brown garb. Orange eyes. Personification of fire.

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Hi Garland. I'm afraid I don't have the kind of advice you're looking for - I look for it myself. I'm willing to bet that developing a tulpa's 'individuality' is one of the biggest difficulties for a lot of, if not most, people.

 

What I can say is that it sounds like you need to relax. Remember that the brain is perfected to contain a single mind, and you're trying to cram in 6 more! As well as create these fully sentient minds from scratch! It's not going to be easy! I don't mean to be discouraging, but if you demand noticeable evolution from your tulpas every two weeks, you might simply be out of luck.

 

Finally: no one can guarantee that anything will work, or not, when it comes to something as subjective and personal as tulpamancy. However, what you and your tulpas are doing with writing stories and commenting on them sounds like a fantastic exercise. I think we might try that too now. :)

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