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Help with saying Goodbye
#11
Linkzelda's post is pretty much perfect. But still, the touchiness of the rest of the posters is annoying me. Tulpamancy is not a religion, guys.

The idea that you'd like to have a tulpa, and a ~character you have attempted to imagine consistently for a while, does not mean they're suddenly sentient and feeling emotions they just aren't displaying. We're supposed to be treating this as a scientific/psychological phenomenon, but your reactions are closer to metaphysical ones. We do not define sentience by the want of a thoughtform to be sentient. We define tulpa sentience as when said "tulpa" shows signs of autonomy and independence, which usually entails communication of some sort, though often emotions/tulpish early on rather than words. Consistent autonomous movement also counts. While he says that he cares for her, that sounds like more care for the potential and concept of a tulpa, as he said she does not respond at all, and "I thought she wanted me to call her Bethany" is about the least legitimate proof of sentience ever. The random thoughts you get sometimes when first starting to make a tulpa are not the tulpa talking to you, it's just a random thought, or after enough time your brain learning how to produce spontaneous thoughts. You could just as easily pretend you were making a tulpa right now and think "Alright mind, what does my tulpa want to be called?" and have a name pop up. That's not sentience.

It's good to encourage people if they're doubting themselves or their tulpa that they have made progress and that they can if they continue trying, but don't mistake that common encouragement for actual truth. It's optimism, positive beliefs to influence a positive future. But none of us could ever say for sure that they've got anything tulpa-like at all, even with people who make claims their tulpa is sentient, let alone with people who say they've never gotten a response from their tulpa before. He has the right mindset for tulpa creation in treating his tulpa-to-be like it's already a person, which is basically the number one must for actually creating a tulpa, but I see no evidence at all that he's made progress on one yet. Although because he stated he still wants a tulpa, I would continue with the positive encouragement for progress' sake. There's no reason not to if they don't want to leave the phenomenon behind entirely. But this post was more about how all of you responded than towards the OP.


The following is an awful lot of text on many aspects of dissipation, and is unrelated to the OP. Just fair warning.

And while I'm at it, I've heard yet more annoying statements on tulpa dissipation. It's "Like a slow, painful death", "Killing your best friend", "A terrible feeling of fading out of existence" etc. How about no, not necessarily, and no. First, tulpas do not die, they are forgotten at best. That may be similar to the concept of "Living forever" through making a difference in the world and being remembered, of which the opposite is being forgotten by all. But that's just philosophy some have, you're either dead or you're not. A tulpa may or may not have that feeling - are they even capable of it yet? If your tulpa hasn't showed any signs of sentience, then they're not sentient yet. And they are not feeling some hidden emotions you just don't know about. At best a tulpa may later claim random thoughts that came to your mind as them, once they're more developed. You know, if they ever reach the point of sentience. Which again, we define as apparent through autonomous responses. Now if your tulpa is well developed enough to have such feelings, then maybe you're at the point where "Killing your best friend" could make some sense. They do have to exist to be your friend in the first place after all. Best friend though, considering theoretically you're wanting to dissipate the tulpa, seems unlikely. That's just projection by the rest of us who tend to actually have best friend tulpas, right? And some people who just get that feeling from the community. So, on the topic of dissipating an actually developed tulpa.

I will state that beliefs on how tulpas function (and whether or not they even do) while not consciously present to the host vary, but I'm of the belief they themselves do not technically experience anything if they literally aren't there. I believe that, similar to with imposition, they identify with thoughts, feelings or events that they aren't technically there for but consider themselves to be anyways. Which is fine and works seamlessly really, neither you nor your tulpa would ever notice a difference. Sorry to those who so vehemently disagree with this idea, that I believe the lack of conscious thought to imply the lack of conscious thought. Keep in mind I am referring to times of utter and complete non-existence of the tulpa to the host. As much as "a feeling in the back of your mind" may be enough for a tulpa to still be present regardless of the host's attention, but I am not referring to that. I am referring to not thinking of your tulpa for a week and being in the middle of Gym class. Though I do not doubt that one could train themselves/their tulpa to perpetuate its own consciousness without the host's involvement over long periods of time, seeing as we ourselves haven't even done that I treat it as a rather advanced trait very uncommon to the types who want to dissipate their tulpa. Those types of things take extreme dedication (or perhaps biological luck, I don't know) to the development of the tulpa, which obviously is not the case to our theoretical dissipator. If it somehow is, then again this does not apply, proceed to paragraph three.

So, actual "death" of a tulpa. At this point I'm not even going to pretend most of you will follow my logic here, "scientific minded" community or not this is the point where morals and emotion start to override logic. So feel free to completely disagree despite me stating this as fact, I acknowledge your reality may be different. So, people morally consider killing a tulpa to be wrong, in ways ranging from "killing your best friend" to simply "killing a sentient being". That's understandable. Killing isn't the correct word unless you're literally removing the parts of your brain your tulpa functions from, but it may be effectively such if they're never thought of again. What's the process like, though? "Slow and painful" is a disgusting definition, for one thing. There is no pain to someone who isn't feeling, in fact there is no pain to a tulpa in the first place. What there is is emotion, perhaps feeling if your tulpa is developed enough to exist somewhat despite your not thinking of it. But that's where it gets really iffy. In the case of a tulpa who is not capable of maintaining its own consciousness in the host's mind without their intent, it technically won't ever be conscious again to identify with those emotions. Unless.. You stop the process, or bring them back (as tulpas do not die) at a later time. At that point basically everything everyone says it's like for a tulpa to be dissipated is effectively true. Not for the individual tulpa who will have their own experience, but in general, it's all possible. If you kill someone, they definitely don't feel anything. But if you attempt to kill them, not only did they surely feel something, but were they close to you they'll also feel the emotional pain of betrayal too. Goody. That is what we want to avoid in tulpamancy, because rarely is there such a great reason to dissipate a fully developed tulpa that you can surely say they will never again be a part of your life. They do live in your mind in the first place, and memories are surprisingly resilient over long periods of time given the right stimulus to bring them back. If you can remember what the backyard of your childhood house looked like (or if you still live there, someone else's you only visited once), you sure as heck can remember a tulpa you spent so much time with.

In fact, you probably can't ever lose the ability to remember them to some extent. Not without some kind of mental disorder or brain damage at least. So the act of dissipating a developed tulpa is inherently risking everything bad people warn you about doing so. From a purely logical standpoint, that is undeniably true. Not to say it is impossible to avoid however. The act of remembering a long-forgotten tulpa isn't an accidental stray thought or memory of them, it's a lot more. Until you give that memory or their existence a decent amount of attention, your brain will not be firing all of those neurons that were required to have a tulpa in the first place. You can create a buffer with time where even slight recalling of memories or thinking about the tulpa does not bring back to mind everything they were - the same process you go through when losing a loved one, or even a particularly bad breakup. It takes a long time, but you eventually become desensitized to the slightest memories, and while the pain can return by thinking of them too much, years later remembering their name or appearance should not affect you nearly as bad. It's basically the same for a tulpa.


And that last paragraph should have even the most reasonable of you doubting what I'm saying, so surely as if I've experienced it. Well, while I have experienced the fading and barely-existing (which was my own fault), we have had both of those scenarios in our system. Scarlet was actually dissipated some years ago, so we have very detailed memories of the entire dissipation process. Including the buffer you develop over time where simply thinking of them for a moment does not reignite all those neurons involved in their existence. We even had her come back, too. While there was slight intent on Lumi's part, it was shockingly easy for her to become active again after well over a year of not being thought of once. And yet, her first words were "No hard feelings?" While both her and Lumi experienced the initial emotional pain of dissipation in the first place, afterward there was no "feeling" on her part until the day she came back. Us being a fairly open system she of course could recall all that happened in her absence, though she had no attachment to any of it not having lived through it. All she felt the moment she was back was simply existing again. And she's a strong-minded individual - those memories are just as likely to hurt her as they would any other human who felt betrayed, and I'm not saying a tulpa will be totally fine if they go through this. In fact they almost definitely won't be, as stated earlier. Scarlet is simply brutal with her values, and she only values the body's wellbeing, completely disregarding any other emotions (even others').

I mean, she's still rather aggressive, but I think that's just who she is. Regardless, without going into too much detail, Lumi has also experienced the same process in having to forget and desensitize himself to memories of a real person, of which the initial feelings were some of the worst he's ever felt. So yes, we've experienced that too. That is the only reason I said any of this so matter-of-factly: because it's true to at least one person, it is not baseless conjecture. Of course it won't apply to everyone, but this community exists on people sharing those subjective beliefs. And if stated with a lot of sureness, they tend to be taken as slightly more significant by others. Sorry, that's just a habit of mine. Everything's subjective here, and you could easily purposely choose the opposite of everything I just said as your reality. Or maybe just disagree in the first place. Still, a huge part of all the discussion on Tulpa.info is to help new members create their own subjective reality, hopefully one with stable and sensical beliefs. That's what I'm here for. Feel free to disregard.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#12
Don't feel bad about saying goodbye, just tell her that we all need to move on and so does she.Smile
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#13
(04-08-2016, 11:46 PM)ImmortalGeek Wrote: I have decided to say goodbye to her. To get rid of her (that sounds harsh). It's not just because of her not responding, it's other things but I really wouldnt like to go into detail.

Why? No, seriously, why? Elaborate on why you think that she is so broken you have no choice but to scrap her and start anew. Is it something that is temporary and will go away? Because stasis is always an option (granted, not a very good one, but preferable to dissolution). I hope it's not because of her form (which can be changed easier than you or I can change our clothes).

(04-09-2016, 01:37 AM)Joss Wrote: So you don't want Bethany, but you still want a tulpa? You realize this is like abandoning your first-born child in favor of a future child, just because the first one didn't turn out how you expected. You do realize that, right?

Exactly this. Not to mention, if you can't fix whatever issues arise with your first, what's to stop you from giving up on future tulpas in the same way? It sets a bad precedent. It's something only a baka would do. Don't be a baka. Resolve your problems. If you can't do that, you really shouldn't start another tulpa.

Junior64 Wrote:Don't feel bad about saying goodbye, just tell her that we all need to move on and so does she.
This is Bad Advice and you shouldn't listen to it. Imagine, if you will, a mother saying to her infant child, "Sorry, son, I'm going to stop feeding you and giving you water and shelter. Don't cry. We all need to move on and so do you." This is not a simple break up with a lover! Holy shit, how can you be so callous? Do you even Tulpamance?
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#14
(04-20-2016, 01:55 AM)Junior64 Wrote: Don't feel bad about saying goodbye, just tell her that we all need to move on and so does she.Smile

What did I just read.
No, really: What did I just read?
Is the equivalent of death by starvation now a matter of "Aww, c'mon, you gotta move on with your life!"?

Please don't try to give advice when you yourself are new to this and don't know what you're actually talking about.
No offense, but... seriously.


Greets,
AG
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#15
(04-20-2016, 11:36 PM)AGGuy Wrote: What did I just read.
No, really: What did I just read?
Is the equivalent of death by starvation now a matter of "Aww, c'mon, you gotta move on with your life!"?

I don't think these people actually realize what they're saying.

(04-20-2016, 11:36 PM)AGGuy Wrote: Please don't try to give advice when you yourself are new to this and don't know what you're actually talking about.
No offense, but... seriously.

Sums up my thoughts perfectly. If you're not willing to take care of your tupper, then don't make one.
It's fairly cruel to be given life only for it to be taken away once your creator is bored.
"Try to get a better understanding of things before making your judgement." -Khan, Metro 2033
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#16
(04-20-2016, 01:55 AM)Junior64 Wrote: Don't feel bad about saying goodbye, just tell her that we all need to move on and so does she.Smile
I don't think you understand how tulpamancy works.

In any case. I would first try to fix whatever you feel is wrong. Change methods, try new perspectives or even take a break. Not dissipation, just a break. Come back to forcing when you feel like it. You got the rest of your life to force, what harm can a little break do, especially if you're stressed/worried about no progress even though you force daily? In my view, it can help you unload any pressure you may feel towards forcing (as in "wow 3 hours forcing and no result what a waste of time"-kind of thoughts). Keep in mind that getting back into forcing can be hard for some.

The good is that since it's in your mind and she seems little-developed so far (if at all) you can pretty much reshape her without much ill effects, and besides, if she dislikes any change she can undo it later. Amazing stuff I tell ya. But you need to get rid of that mental block of "wow it'll still be her". If she didn't progress at all, then you don't really have any specific thing that will point that it's still her other than your own preconceptions (and some people above saying it).

No dice? Try asking for advice that isn't "how do I dissipate my tulpa?"; Be specific and who knows, you might get the advice you need to get further.

If you need a longer break, put her into stasis/deep sleep/not-dead-but-inactive state. Come back a year or two later. Maybe afterwards you can approach this from a different perspective.

Or take it as a fun activity, not as a "I GOTTA FORCE"-type of activity. Many accidental tulpas were seemingly created that way, by having fun and talking to them when you can and want to, not on a fixed schedule. Progress may be slow this way though.

Still feeling bad/whatever? Proceed to dissipation. Explain your reasons, listen carefully for anything that may come from your tulpa, understand her point of view, and finally say your goodbyes if you still feel it's the best thing to do.

Doesn't have to be overtly dramatic, although since it's in your mind you may be able to use some symbolism that works for you so that it isn't nearly as "traumatic" or whatever. Like, imaginating your tulpa going on to a far, far away land to live better. Or something.

The part that seems weird to me is wanting to start over. If you're leaving your first tulpa to make a second one when you didn't even get any response from them (at least not that you have mentioned so far) then it comes off as an irresponsible thing, at least to me (because you didn't wait to get somewhere with one tulpa and yet you want to scratch that one off and start over, even when it's all on your mind and you could reshape whatever you didn't like with some work).
Also, if you can't fix your problems with your first tulpa, what guarantee you'll have that you'll be able to solve your problems with the second/third/sixteenth tulpa?
But hey, that method (starting over again and again) is the only thing that has worked for Enny, although as far as I know he never explicitly dissipated any of his old tulpas.

P.S. I don't get why people jump to the conclusion that their tulpa will feel pain or some other sensation when they have (according to them at least) never received any response.
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#17
Sheesh, you don't have to kill them with textwalls, Tewi already covered that. They probably just didn't read the whole OP, it looks like their post was in response to the thread title. You guys really are touchy. Guess that's why Tewi wrote so much.
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#18
The concept of dissipation probably needs more thought experiments to iron out those touchy opinions. Might put things into perspective with associations of abortion, life, and suffering, but admittedly, it's hard to make those kinds of threads without being drowned by social norms on this. I realized there's a lot of assumptions that go unnoticed with this topic in particular, and due to not a lot of theories of mind being discussed, it's kind of natural for others to structure a tulpa being able to see and feel things as they are equal to the host. Even if the development might be infantile, at best.
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#19
(04-21-2016, 03:53 AM)timethief Wrote: But hey, that method (starting over again and again) is the only thing that has worked for Enny, although as far as I know he never explicitly dissipated any of his old tulpas.

I did not, and have no real worries as to what's become of past tuppers either. Like I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, a welcome invitation for the Tupper to just be the new one if they like. Not like the presence in my mind feels immediately different with each new attempt, and in-fact, has felt the exact same since Miriam back in 2013, so for all I know I've just been slowly building on to the same thing since then.

And if not, who cares? It's said and done, and I personally don't think there would have been any pain, or starvation or whatever on the tuppers' parts, so there probably wasn't.

As long as your method of removal doesn't involve symbolically shooting them in the head, I'm sure it'll be fine.
If you only knew what all this cost - What she gave up, just to save her art

What is fashion, fashion without love? Like an odradek, a spool without purpose
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