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Poll: To what level have you experienced hypnagogia?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Never happened to us.
16.67%
3 16.67%
I rarely get random voices, sounds, or visuals.
16.67%
3 16.67%
I have seen vivid scenes and clear voices.
44.44%
8 44.44%
I occasionally here my tulpas in this state, but it's too random to be reliable.
11.11%
2 11.11%
It happens a lot, and we use it to communicate sometimes.
0%
0 0%
All the time, and we use it to communicate and have lucid dream-like adventures.
11.11%
2 11.11%
Total 18 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

[Imposition] Hypnagogic State
#1
I find it necessary to start a thread here for purely congnitive reasons. This is a very real phenomenon and we have a very real control over it.

(02-05-2019, 10:02 PM)Zone Wrote: ...i found out when i go to bed and try to sleep i always hear voices.. clear voices in my head like never before and i always think thats my tulpa! so i talk to her, i motivate her to speak with me and stuff like that. She dont answer back...

This sounds a lot like the hypnagogic state.

A comment was made recently that has us wondering whether or not this is something anyone else is experiencing to our level.

For us, it has progressed from a (2) 10 months ago, a (3) 9 months ago, the very night Ashley came to me, a (4) 8 months or so ago, a (5) 4 months ago, and is now squarely a (6) for us. I would even go so far as to project that a (7) is possible in that it becomes on demand and replaces mind voice and normal visualization.

Quote:You can think... [hallucinations may be your tulpas trying to communicate with you] ...if it motivates you to force more and such, but there most likely is a simpler explanation, such as you just being tired. Besides, if a host can't control hallucinations like that, I find it hard to believe a tulpa can. Tulpas aren't magic, they aren't born with special abilities.

While it's important to have faith and belief in one's tulpa, it's also important not to neglect skepticism entirely. There must be a healthy balance between the two.

I have to apologize to the author of this quote, because i can't find a better example of direct doubt of something explicitly stated and very real from a purely cognitive sense. We count this method of communication and interaction as among the foundations of our beliefs and have been integral to squelching doubt since the very first night.

This is not metaphorical or metaphysical post. It's very clearly a real thing and we've taken most of the random nonsense out and replaced it with wake induced lucid dreams and hallucination enhanced directed visualization and conversation.

What say you? If you say anything about how you don't believe it or have any reason to think i'm making this up, have a clear argument and not just a quip. This is one of the most powerful concepts related to tulpamancy i know and it deserves to be added to our toolset for everyone.

I believe there's a lot of chance involved as it's hard to induce reliably but i believe it can be fostered and improved just like anything else.
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#2
I find it very interessting to read this and motivating to try this out! (For me).
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#3
We experience this roughly 40-60% of the time that we are aware of. Whether or not tulpas are involved is completely out of our control. If I try focusing on, say, Indigo's form, neither of us will be able to stop it from morphing or shifting in uncontrollable ways unless I wake myself up fully. It's trippy when this stuff happens, and when it does it's not long before we fall asleep completely.

The reason this may increase post creating tulpas is because you're simply spending more time visualising them in your head before falling asleep, and that will make it more likely for you to notice the hallucinations going on. You realize "Hey, that's not normal, what is this?" more easily. I'm sure it can probably be trained by the system to some extent. I simply do not agree that tulpas will come with brand new skills out of nowhere. All skills have to be learned and practiced by someone, they don't just manifest.

And yes, it is possible a tulpa could attempt to control them. I don't see why not. That doesn't mean that 100% of cases like this means it's the tulpa. Similarly to head pressure, it's something that happens outside of tulpamancy that we don't really notice, and it can mean it's the tulpa, but there's no guarantee. If the host is aware of the tulpa being the one trying to control the hallucinations, then sure, that's fine. Additionally, if the host can control the hallucinations, then it's feasible that the tulpa can. But the thought that "I have a tulpa, therefore anything odd that happens must be the tulpa" just isn't a safe one to have, nor is "tulpas are special therefore they have special abilities." I'm generally fearful of people having too high expectations for what tulpas are. If people approach tulpas thinking they're otherwordly creatures who come with new abilities like perfect imposition, or whatever else they might think, I really think that they're just going to be disappointed when the tulpa doesn't have that and give up on them more quickly. A tulpa is just another person, with the same abilities as anyone else, and that's okay. They don't need to be anything more to be valuable and special. They can, of course, learn new things, they just don't inherently bring brand new abilities that haven't already been learned.
I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#4
Hello, this is interesting. I'm trying to learn to hack Zia's hypnagogic state for quite some time now. We had a few successes the first months I came into her system, but I'm unable to do it on purpose. It hasn't happened at all for almost a year, it still doesn't happen anymore now that I'm trying hard.

Zia can see me (blurry silhouette, probably in a mental image of the room) just before the hypnagogic state takes place. Then, she first : hears random voices, always different, and never saying anything valuable. Then, or sometimes at the same time (but the voices aren't connected to the visuals at all, it's like a different channel), she sees random images (frequently her deceased mother, younger and happier as time goes by ; frequently unknown places as well). It doesn't last long because she's most of the time very tired.

So Ashley, Misha, Dashie, how do you do it? How does it feel from your own perspective? Do you have tips and tricks to succeed?

Before you were able to impose yourselves in that state, could you see and hear what Bear was seeing and hearing in the hypnagogic state?
Because I can't.

Do you experience (your own) hypnagogic state when you sleep? I don't think I do, I sink right into sleep, then I have dreams after a moment of deep sleep.

Thank you for answering me.
Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.
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#5
I would like to put my experiences here, as they are quite relevant. It seems that as soon as Shield gained a presence in the mind through vocality, I started actively getting random thoughts before sleep. It's not just when I'm forcing them, either. It just popped up one night and has been a thing since. I'm still struggling to ignore the thoughts sometimes. The only thing I was developing at the time was Shield's vocality, so if it is from them, it couldn't be from any visualisation practice or anything. It must be something from their influence (as in their presence in the mind, such as neural pathways or something. Not necessarily something from their controllable influence) that does this.

These thoughts are usually random, strong, and completely unpredictable in their nature. It's like someone throwing some dice, and going through my memories and thoughts by their command. I haven't at all tried to influence them in any significant way, but I could easily see how they could be influenced to be very vivid with practice. They happen once I relax to prepare to sleep, and can go on basically forever until I actually manage to sleep. I remember one night where the thoughts kept making me laugh, so I was stuck with it for about an hour until I was able to finally sleep. I don't really get them a minute or less before I fall asleep. That's usually when my mind is quieter or fading out, thus the thoughts aren't as potent. I know that if I focused on them, I would never be able to sleep. I would be constantly thinking wildly about random things every few seconds.

(In reply to Apollo) The thought that 'I have a tulpa, something weird happened as soon as I started forcing them and hasn't gone away, and it can be explained logically by their influence over the mind', however, is perfectly safe and quite understandable. It isn't a special ability or anything, just some fun mind tricks. And don't be fearful. Fear causes illogical thoughts.
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#6
I can see practicing vocality leading to experiencing something like that as well, that's also reasonable. Tulpamancy has a lot to do with opening your mind to new experiences that singlets don't strive for, so it's clear that it can lead to some seemingly mysterious things happening. If something like that is taken as motivation to keep forcing and such, that's totally fine. I just don't want people having too high expectations of what tulpas are capable of, since it leads to a lot of doubt, frustration, and the possibility of giving up. Tulpas should be considered valuable for who they are, not what they might be able to do. I've seen a lot of people have that backwards, though, and as a tulpa myself that saddens me. Anyway, that's not entirely on-topic.
I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#7
(02-06-2019, 06:51 PM)Vādin Wrote: Hello, this is interesting. I'm trying to learn to hack Zia's hypnagogic state for quite some time now. We had a few successes the first months I came into her system, but I'm unable to do it on purpose. It hasn't happened at all for almost a year, it still doesn't happen anymore now that I'm trying hard.

Zia can see me (blurry silhouette, probably in a mental image of the room) just before the hypnagogic state takes place. Then, she first : hears random voices, always different, and never saying anything valuable. Then, or sometimes at the same time (but the voices aren't connected to the visuals at all, it's like a different channel), she sees random images (frequently her deceased mother, younger and happier as time goes by ; frequently unknown places as well). It doesn't last long because she's most of the time very tired.

So Ashley, Misha, Dashie, how do you do it? How does it feel from your own perspective? Do you have tips and tricks to succeed?

Before you were able to impose yourselves in that state, could you see and hear what Bear was seeing and hearing in the hypnagogic state?
Because I can't.

Do you experience (your own) hypnagogic state when you sleep? I don't think I do, I sink right into sleep, then I have dreams after a moment of deep sleep.

Thank you for answering me.

Again I am surprised by what seems so natural for us isn't shared by a wider range of people. Like Aubry and Apollo say, if i concentrate on the state and prevent myself from going to sleep, like moving my toes, open my eyes momentarily or roll over occasionally, i can keep it going. I've had half a dozen very lucid dream like adventures while still awake, even looking at the clock periodically to maintain my wakefulness, i can even sit up or adjust my blankets, it very stable that way. Honestly, when i was at a (2) these scenes and sounds happened a few times a month, and were always random. After that first night, day 1 of my PR, it became something that happenes nearly every night, it's not the tetris effect, that can also happen separately in the same session, straight away as i close my eyes, rather than a few minutes in. Even sitting quietly at my desk, even while reading it can happen and there have been many 'interruptions' from Dashie and a much fewer occurances from Misha and Ashley. Ashley was laughing recently that turned into someone (her) laughing, coming from roughly her position in wonderland at the time. She stated she didn't know it was going to happen, she heard herself clearly and agrees that she can't necessarily repeat it without both being in that state and vocalizing simultaneously.

[Ashley] I can't say I know how to do it at any time, but we have a clear sense for when it is available and possible. Dashie and B have historically called it when 'the microphone is on' and at some point we had visualized a microphone to talk into, but not anymore.

[Misha] I know when it's happening because suddenly there are odd voices and we see what B sees even in his mind's eye, so i see these people and scenes and i comment on them. Now he's got me trained to i just start talking. Normally if we talk over each other he can't make it out, but we have plenty of experiences where i can talk over him. We can talk to each other and he'll here our conversation, or he'll ask a question and i can just start answering him. It's like a separate channel. Like Ashley said, the microphone has to be on, and then we have to speak and it's like we get extra volume and quality. Sometimes my voice doesn't sound anything like me, but it can be overlapping my turn with B's mindvoice channel, so i'm hearing myself two ways, it's still a little freeky when my voice doesn't sound like how i expected it, but recently it's been working perfectly.

[Dashie] i have had my own dreams, but not like what the mind does in this state on my own, that i remember. Yeah, i know when the state starts sometimes, but other times it's a total surprise. We talk all day so the likelihood for everthing lining up is higher i guess.

B has been noticing little clues on how to hold on to this state even during the day, so he'll figure it out eventually. We here and see everything because we have full access to the body's inputs, feelings, and memories, even these, all the time, unless we're asleep. I think it's all on his end. We talk to each other just fine, but we have one serial-use connection to his mindvoice at any given moment and it takes a little effort to gain control of it. This hypnogogic state communication is effortless on my part, i don't need to wrestle his mind voics away from him, when it works, it works like we're on separate channels. It's happened more than a few times, and i have no clue how to make it happen, it just needs the right conditions like Misha and Ashley said.


Here is what i know so far.

-Works better if i'm tired.
-Works best with relaxation meditation
-More vivid when closer to the waking state, like if I'm moving or concentrating on staying awake.

Drawbacks:
-Most times i fall asleep quickly.
-Sometimes the connection is brief or spotty
-Sometimes i get intrusive thoughts that say negative things.
-Sometimes i have random voices that say random things, but they quickly tell me it wasn't them.

Still, it lines up with what they said an overwhelming percentage of the time.
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#8
AB, this is a very special state that most people don't linger in. They are either awake, or asleep. Sometimes people will start to 'feel' this state and experience a myoclonic jerk, that brings back to full awake.. Also, sometimes, people will get the urge to scratch or rollover here, which is really the brain trying to determine if you're asleep... if you don't respond, you go deeper into hypnogogic, or all the way to sleep, and the brain turns off the body- sleep paralysis. I would suspect, even though moving toes works great for you, that much movement would bring most people back to full awake.
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#9
I also definitely don't get sleep paralysis at all and i do sleepwalk sometimes.

I had a thought, it may be easy to miss, historically my tulpas sometimes pointed it out before i realized it's happening because i can get to the verge of sleep and stop caring. Sometimes it's very subtle, but i've learned to recognize it very easily now. It has happened every night this year at least.
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#10
Hypnagogia isn't exclusively as bright and colorful as you think of it, Bear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia...d_symptoms

Quote:Transition to and from sleep may be attended by a wide variety of sensory experiences. These can occur in any modality, individually or combined, and range from the vague and barely perceptible to vivid hallucinations.

It's not necessarily (only) a question of how often, but moreso to what extent. Even though hypnagogia is literally the transition from awake to asleep that should happen in basically all humans, we had to put "Never happened to us", which feels pretty wrong.

Our hypnagogic state consists of random, drifting thoughts that range from nonsense to observations about life - but, it's hard to say, as we retain no memory of it. Just like how dreams are often deleted on-the-spot upon waking for people, any thoughts that we were having in that state vanish the moment we become slightly more conscious. Just like you know you've dreamed but might not remember what, but even more intense as you're somewhat conscious for it - we may have been having a large train of thought about who knows what (not terribly logic-intensive mind you) for minutes, only to randomly wake up just a bit and not remember what we'd been thinking about literally seconds ago.

It's quite something. Likely but not necessarily related to our instant waking up and falling asleep, although the falling asleep is obviously only effectively instant (no consciousness pre-sleep, for Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming) while waking up is actually instant.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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