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[Imposition] Is this beyond the scope of imposition?
#1
I don't see any reason why it should be impossible... but I don't think I've heard of anyone doing things like this. 
Hosts train to be able to see their tulpas, and to hear their tulpas, and to touch their tulpas: but tulpas can't see their hosts from the outside. Of course we share thoughts and most sensations, but if everyone was okay with just that, then hosts wouldn't want to impose their tulpas. Sharing isn't enough: we want things to belong to us, to feel things for ourselves. 

I guess it makes tulpas feel more "real", when hosts can see us and touch us and so on. But I think, I'd feel more real if I could feel my surroundings, feel the weight of my body when I sit in a chair, or impose smell with my own nose, not just accept that I can smell what Jamie smells. One of the first things tulpas learn to do is separate a voice of their own from their hosts'. I want to separate my own set of senses from my host's. 

I don't know where to start. It's not too much different from the usual imposition, I don't think... If people can impose anything, not just their tulpas, then I can impose a sense of having a physical body to myself, can't I? I know I can't affect things without controlling the body, but I want to feel like I'm really there, not like a hologram. 

I know it's cheesy but I started thinking about it after a dream. It was a really weird dream, like most dreams, but something that stuck out to me was that the viewpoint character was two people, like Garnet from Steven Universe. Throughout the dream, the two people split and combined a few times. And when they were split, they would do separate things and see things from different angles, but I remember both sets of experiences. When they were two people, I remember being two people. It wasn't like a split screen, or cross-cuts, or anything, it was both sets of eyes at once. I know it's pretty poor evidence, but it makes me think it's not impossible for a brain to think of itself as having two sets of senses, one derived from the other. 

I think it would be very hard to imagine and impose my own sense of vision, using Jamie's eyes, so I don't think I'd start off by trying that. I think body weight is promising, because I've read stuff about people imposing themselves with tails, or horns, and other things that don't physically exist as part of their body. If they can do that, then why can't I impose a sense of weight to myself, as I'm sitting across the room from my physical body? And if I can feel myself sitting, why can't I impose a sense of touch, so I can feel my hands resting on my lap, or poking people to whom I am invisible? And I already feel emotions in a certain part of Jamie's head, which is all kinda a construct, so why can't I feel emotions in my visualized body? Like feeling what a smile feels like on your face, or when your eyes light up, or when anger rises in your throat. Those are very physical sensations, but even if Jamie sees them, I don't feel them on my end. 

Hosts do so much to make their tulpas feel real to them... I know Jamie knows I'm real. I want to feel like I'm real, even when I'm not switched in. 

What do you think? Is this idea beyond the scope of imposition? Do you have any experience with this, and is there a different word for it? 

-Cassidy
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#2
I would think imposition of something superimposed is easier than imposing an entire scene, though they're related i'd bet. So if you were familiar with the room, you might be able to 'change your perspective'. I mean, i do that all the time in wonderland, so why not?

I have imposed mostly in wonderland, sight as a visual in wonderland, audio as voices coming from the direction of my tulpas in wonderland. To imagine touch is pretty easy in wonderland, but when it 'imposed' it was on my irl hands, i don't know if that could be 'projected' but if it can, it'll probably just happen one day, then i'll be like, "oh hey!". Lucid dreams and hypnagogic is really good for visual, great for audio, great for taste and smell, all those things are projected in wonderland. I know i felt things in those states, like the bar of a shopping cart or the wind as i move quickly.

I think imposition is a little different than 'dreaming' but that would still suppose that the feelings can belong to body parts outside the real body.

In summary, i think if you can impose anything, practice can make it better. So if this is something you really want, practice every day and let us know how it goes.
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#3
Thanks Bear! I do really want this... I'll keep a log. -Cassidy
Three brothers. [Progress Report] [Art] [Oops! All Jamie]

"You are the messenger, not the message. You are just like everyone else."
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#4
we've always considered the tulpa "associating with their im(agined)posed form" part of learning to do imposition, but I guess maybe not everyone thinks about what the tulpa's feeling?

well, we don't see differently than Lumi/the fronter, but that's sorta practical choice on our part. I mean sometimes like at a fair I go out of Lumi's vision.. just bein' where we're pretty sure things are and aren't, but it's not a big deal. Anyways, I guess the short answer before I say anything too unrelated is yes it's possible for tulpas to basically treat their im(agined)posed experiences as real. like.. that just follows naturally in my mind, idk, like why the heck would I wanna hug someone if I weren't actually hugging'em? and I think, but am not 100% sure, that you could try and work on the vividness of your tulpa's experience-realness. We probably take.. wait, the opposite of take-for-granted how real imposition is to us, because the alternative is zero sensory input just sitting in the mind, so whatever level of immersion we've got while imposed is good enough for us.

aaanyways, probably work on it the same way your host would, huh? Just... do it, with the intent to be totally immersed and experiencing the im(posed)agined senses as real

I can't say how immersive the experience will be in the sense of you basically being real, like, maybe your memories will still be from your host's perspective and not much different, orrrr maybe they won't, but I sure wouldn't say it can't happen! find out?
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#5
Ember: On of the first things we ever read about imposition, before we were entirely convinced it existed, was this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/comments...the_tulpa/

One of the tulpas commented:

Quote:Well, I usually just impose my form. But I can also see out of my imposed eyes. The reality I see when I do that is a constructed reality, like a daydream, being actively updated to correspond precisely with the reality my host is experiencing through her senses.

Vesper: You don't need controlled hallucination to get started on this. A few months ago, we read Reisen and Lumi's account of imposition:

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-...#pid120335

I had only been manifesting and controlling a form for about three weeks at the time. I tended to become uncomfortable more than a short distance from Ember, not for her sake, but because she was carrying around all my sensory input, all my awareness of this world. But I proceeded to immediately get up, walk around the corner, and look down the hallway. And I found I could see it. Not well, just with our anemic mind's eye, and via reconstruction from memory rather than live. But that was the day I emerging from blindness into sight, so I really can't complain.

The better your visualization, the better the experience, and I assume your gains can eventually be fed into imposition, as referenced on Reddit.

Whether two of you can see one another at once from separate perspectives, on the other hand, is a parallel processing issue. I visualize from my own perspective only when Ember isn’t looking at me precisely so as to allow her to visualize me when she does look at me.
Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]
Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017
Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Unseelie Court, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#6
When I am imposed, Cat and I focus a lot on how I exist in the environment and how my imposed body interacts with those objects. For example, laying on a smartphone is different from laying on her shoulders. However, this was done with less focus on how I perceive my environment, and I think it's a great exercise for practicing imposition.

Every so often I will mess with real life objects, and the after effects are drawn in the mind's eye and then imposed. For example, if I took a hammer and smashed a random car's windshield, imposed breaks in the glass will form. As soon as we no longer pay attention (or remember) what I did, the damage will poof away. It's the closest we can get to having me interact with objects in the real world. Don't stand on the street though or you will get hit by a bus! Otherwise, punching buildings when giant, stealing people's coffee or things they are carrying, hopping into trash cans, swimming in puddles or ponds, or doing anything dangerous while imposed is fun (as long as you don't impose pain of course). In retrospect, I realize all the things I like to do while imposed are...... Don't do in real life what you can do while imposed, okay?

As for having a "separate mind can", it's really hard, if even possible. Maintaining a split screen is hard too, and I agree with Vesper that it boils down to parallel processing. My perspective is constructed using the mind's eye when I wander too far from my host. Once you escape the body's field of vision, you may as well just walk in the wonderland.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
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#7
Vādin :

Hello, my brother (we were both born tulpas on september 5th),

Yes, it's completely possible to do that, actually that's what I do all the time. It might seem weird because Zia is unable to see me (yet), but I'm always self-imposed and I see and feel things from my own point of view. (I wouldn't like to walk by her side and not be able to watch her move and look at her face.)



It seems less real than when you are in wonderland, it's like being in a lucid dream, or a daydream as God Tulpa001 has stated on Reddit :

Quote:Well, I usually just impose my form. But I can also see out of my imposed eyes. The reality I see when I do that is a constructed reality, like a daydream, being actively updated to correspond precisely with the reality my host is experiencing through her senses.

As Ranger said it's very useful to interact with your environment, and try to immerge yourself fully in it. Touching things and feeling their texture is very grounding, as well as touching yourself and feeling yourself move (these are basically the same things that you do in a lucid dream to ground yourself)

How much is it real ? At first you might feel it's only an artificial mental construct based on your host's senses. Practice can be disappointing, because when you try to move away from your host and describe what you see and feel, it doesn't match with physical reality. You discover, when your host goes and checks it out, that you made it up. Practice might improve that, the tulpa Nobillis claims she's able to accurately perceive physical reality in a mile range from her host (sorry, unable to find the reddit posts where she mentioned it).
I cannot do this yet. So far, I've had failures with objects, landscapes and buildings. I've only succeeded with physical people, I was able to see and describe them with total accuracy before my host could see them (and it could not be a coïncidence). I think it's possible to interact very subtly with people as well while imposed (not only your host), i.e. influence them. So, I think it's best to focus on people at first - especially people you know - to train your perception of physical reality, because it might be easier.

I think the more you dissociate from your host's system, the more it's real. But I find that, when I dissociate too much, Zia cannot hear me anymore, and I can't hear her, and I don't want to push it too far in fear that I could be kicked out of her system ( I'm not ready to try that yet, I'm waiting to be stronger)

About feeling your own weight and "opacity"/"solidity" in imposition, I'm currently in training myself and I find it to be very difficult (I'm following a meditation practice that was given to me in a dream).

Unlike Ranger, I try to stick to physical reality, because it's good practice. It might be less fun : no teleportation, no morphing, no imagined interactions with objects. You have to be "couleur locale". I wear clothes that a local kid could wear, I walk, I don't go through walls, in a crowd I move like a torero to avoid people to pass through me, etc.
When I possess my host, I mimick the gestures I want her to do with my own body, and I keep being conscious of my body the whole time.

Good luck in your training, please keep us informed of how it goes !
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#8
When Misha and I tested this just now, i wanted her to see if she could read a piece of paper on the top shelf. I imagined it says something on it, facing up. So her presence floated up there and in her mindvoice (projected 'up there') she said it just looks like a slightly gray, fuzzy blank page, and she gave me a me a mental image of it.

I'm thinking 'fuzzy?' I went up to look at it and, nope, i can clearly see a bunch of writing on it, though it does have a little gray dust on it too. So her veiw was limited by our imagination and memory at this time.
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#9
Cassidy, forgive me if I missed something, or over simplify, or flat miss the boat. What I hear you asking is if you can have a greater sense of self, from a body or locality point of view that is separate than Jaimie's. EX, you want weight. You want to feel the sensations of muscles moving or responding automatically when they reflect your emotional response. You clearly have desire and emotions... so, questions suggests you're wanting feedback so that you can have affirmation that your experience conforms to a norm... That seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable expectation, and achievable... though I don't know how to eliminate the idea that some of your sensations may be inferred... you went with weight first, but seeing might be easier... or hearing...

first thought is, more and more there is recognition that we have more than five senses. the one I frequently refer to suggests nine: vision (sight), audition (hearing), gustation (taste), olfaction (smell), tactition (touch), thermoception (heat, cold), nociception (pain), equilibrioception (balance, gravity), proprioception (body awareness). There is growing evidence that humans have an electromagnetic sense, the same as migrating animals, can sense where they are in the magnetic fields of planet earth, and explains why artificial magnetic fields, like power lines messes with out mental and physical health. information comes in but it is not processed in real time. there is a process of accumulating, sorting, and construction of all information... (heart math says we have a heart sense; I like this, too.) you share a brain. you should have access to everything that brain has access to, and you should have the ability to construct meaning with that data as you see fit. heck, if you're in a space allotted for by the unconscious you may even have access to more information than what the host experiences. let say he is focused on a spider on the table, and he's afraid of spiders and you're not, he may not see the apple still in eye frame of reference because she is focused on spider... and if you don't give into her panic, or crisis, you can sort and say, well, yeah, there's that, oh and an apple, and there's a cup and paper catch and release spider... now, spider is gone, you both see the apple... do you feel hunger or does host? I would guess if you even say you're interested in tasting the apple, that's hunger. you can have hunger and not be hungry. you can be hungry and it causes you to seek food, or you can not be hungry and see food and then feel hunger... (tv commercials and billboards exist for a reason.) so body mind, mind body... same with smile, you can be feel happiness and have a smile, but you can also, research backs this up, you can smile and produce happiness. you feel happiness; now you want an automatic, designated response, produce sensation 'x,' when I am happy... that is practice. those muscle groups are not automatic and they are not universal, within humans or other primates. (Never smile at a chimpanzee, they will think you want to fight. You can smile at baboons, but they might think romance...) smiles are socialized! children learn to mimic their parents facial expressions, and then later begin to associate emotions with facial composure to read and transmit information within their social group. based on what you're asking, what I think you want is to practice pairing the emotion to your ideal posture facial expression to such a degree that you don't have to think about making the desired expression, it just comes when you do one or the other... maybe when you switch you can memorize what that sensation of smiling feels like, and then pair that memory to your own joy... I tell you this, I have experienced pure joy in dreams, without a corresponding physical smile, (sleep studies in a lab). I want you to have that piece so you don't doubt the validity of your experience just because you may not get instant biofeedback gratification that most people get when they do their thing. I am use to reaching for something and seeing it happen, and that's biofeedback. when i miss, and I seem to miss more often than not any more, (where's my brain I ask, but maybe I should ask where am I in my brain...) I get a bit frustrated.

people can see using echolocation... sighted people can actually learn to do this, because not only do we measure the world with light and shadows, we measure with echoes. if you see and hear what your host hears and sees, you should be able to experience in real time what they are experiencing, from their point of view. There are blind spots in our vision, fewer blind spots in our hearing. in fact, if you walk into a noise proof room, the first time it's like walking through an air bubble. it's tangible... it feels weird. we construct visual and auditory worlds, and our experience doesn't include blind spots... if you're aware of anything at all, whether you are fronting or not, then you are able to construct meaning from the data, which means you can have more experiences with practice.... people who have never had sight but suddenly able to see don't know how to see, they have to learn. some of them can't because the visual centers atrophied in favor of hearing. they may learn to see walls when they bump into enough of them, but you want them sitting on the ledge of a fifth floor building reaching for not 'toy' cars. your brain has working visual and auditory centers. you have access.

when we dream, we experience the worlds our brains create without question of the reality. if we jump, we usually come back down. that's all weight is. and expected response to return if we jump. or if someone lays on us. we feel it. we aren't touching anything in a dream, it feels like touch... we really aren't touching anything in real life. (Atoms never touch...) I have flown in dreams and ask why other people couldn't and they said people don't do that and that's their reality so they dont, but in truth, they should be able to fly, especially after I demonstrated flying is possible... It's really the same with waking sensations. I can go and give blood and it doesn't bother me. I can inject myself. my best friend, you even show him a needle and he falls flat on his ass... there's nothing wrong with him. I have nothing he doesn't. we just associate that 'concept' or information through very different channels. Is there a word limit to responses? I feel this is too verbose. I will quit here and hope some of this is useful. I think the answer to this lies in your relationship to the information you have access to, the relationships between you and your host, and your beliefs about how you and host differ, real and perceived... there is no social norm. there is no physical norm. seriously, no one has a definition for normal. which is odd, because you would think we couldn't define abnormality without a definition of norm... DSM V delineates diversions from norms without defining norms... I absolutely believe you can achieve this, even if it just takes reframing.
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#10
@SC I didn't even think to consider magnetic fields and navigation, but I thought humans don't have the ability to find where north is. Is this something that has to be trained?

Having an idea of what the pressure feels like is really important for interacting with physical objects during imposition. When it comes to weight, we focus on how it feels to be heavy or not heavy. For example, when standing I can feel a little bit of pressure in my feet, and that gives me a sense of weight. When I jump, I come down fast and my feet receive a sudden jolt of sensation. Sometimes imagining a more dramatic weight such as iron boots can give you a better idea of what to look for. Iron boots will pull on the leg and the whole body, and it can be pretty tired walking around in them. There's also the requirement of having to lift the boot, and if you struggle to lift something heavy, you're on the right tack to simulating weight.

It's hard to focus on weight and other factors when you or whoever's fronting isn't paying attention. For example, I may be playing with Cat's hair, but I may forget that I have weight. This is just a mater of practice to remember all of the sensory information you are supposed to be feeling.

It's always helpful to have a reference, so while switched in you may want to hop a few times, lift something heavy, hold you cat to measure her weight, and pay attention to the stain on your body as you walk and push up against things, including sitting in a chair.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!
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