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[Imposition] So.. What am I doing wrong?
#1
So I have a question, about imposition. Basically, am I doing something wrong? Allow me to explain..

I tried following the guide linked from Sparky, Mylynes's "Advanced Vision Control Tutorial" and among other things it's said the idea is to close eyes and use the colored spots you see to so on and so forth. I see black and that's it. It says train by staring at an image on a computer screen for 10 seconds then close your eyes and hold that as long as you can. I close my eyes and still either see darkness or at best the faintest white blurry, static-like colorless outline of what I was looking at, for a moment before it too vanishes.

I read about people talking about vivid hypnagogic hallucinations and I thus far I have remained unaware of these because I just fall asleep. The best example I have had of "seeing" anything I wasn't specifically trying to visualize in mind space, other than the occasional dream, was after waking up and seeing a slightly more distinct (than the example given above) greenish-white outline of a face in my vision, still on inky black background, the face seeming to move a bit or change perspective in time with my heartbeat. This has happened twice now, and since I was wearing a sleep mask and had recently woken up I don't know if it was due to the ganzfeld effect or hypnopompia.

Everything else visual seems to be extremely vague or crude impressions of things at best. I have never felt, smelled or heard even the slightest thing that wasn't physically present. I thought I might have felt something faintly once but the inability to replicate it made me chalk it up to wishful thinking. Her speaking has always been mind voice from the head and has never seemed to come from any particular direction. The closest I have ever come to synthesizing anything, except a bit of blurry imagery, was I have twice now been able to give myself the impression I was tasting Reilyn's favorite Greek yogurt when I was chewing mint gum, and believe me that felt like a huge triumph.

So basically, either of us can open-eyed visualize a vague visual impression of our wonderland forms around the body, which we puppet to do what we want. I've asked Reilyn if she could do try talking out loud or poking me or anything at all and I typically get the "How the heck am I supposed to do that? It's not like I know any more than you about all this stuff", and I have to agree. Us making one or more vague images then interacting with them doesn't register at all.

Emotionally, if one of us hugs the other or holds hands or something we have been pretty good at being able to get an emotional experience across, as in the comfort and security and sense of being loved and/or belonging coming across as a warm fuzzy pleasant feeling but otherwise, nothing at all. From where we are at now, I just fail to understand how something like "just know they are behind a door and get ready to greet them, then open the door over and over till it works" is supposed to accomplish anything.

I feel like someone who has been sitting their whole life that is suddenly trying to learn to walk or even run. I don't believe in trying anything harmful or stressful to the body to "force" some sort of wild, unpredictable hallucinations. Am I just to understand that this is something that we will chip away at for years with minuscule yet incremental improvement? I don't expect to just roll out of bed one day and there she (or I, if she is main front) will be, but I have to admit that my starting point seems to be extremely far away from what I see many of you report. Somewhat related, we saw a video on aphantasia and it included a scale or reference pictures on visualization ability, and rated it from 0 (being nothing at all) to 10 (being able to see and construct complex 3D models and blueprints mentally) and I seemed to be sitting at a 1 or 2. I don't mean "oh, I was having a bad day boo hoo, I suck", I mean on our best day ever, with Bear's scripted narrative, emotional attachment providing a more immersive experience, combined with the want to give it our all for a test and for a friend, it has never gone above perhaps a 5 or 6.
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#2
Now keep in mind that I didn't use much from the guide that you mentioned, but I can say that imposition is not easy and it is not quick. I can't say that it will take you years to be able to have sucess with it, but it's certainly not going to be something you can get within days, and not something that you can get without lots of hard work.

As far as the specific issues that you are having, I would recommend pressing on your eyes a little bit like it says and maybe attempt it a little bit more over the next few days, but if you still can't see any dots, then it's probably best to just move on to a different method because that one is clearly not working well.

Also, visualisation will affect how detailed your imposition will be, but I don't think that it would affect ability to do it (of course if you can't visualize then that would make it a lot more difficult, but so long as you can at all, then it's probably fine).
I have a tulpa named Miela (formerly known as Monika) who I love very much.


"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"
-Me
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#3
We're still sitting at zero on imposition too, but since we don't really even make time for active forcing, I'm not expecting much. I've only ever hallucinated twice in my life. Once was years ago, during my only serious episode of sleep paralysis. The other was years before that and is relevant to imposition.

I was walking out of the dining room into the living room, turning a corner and bringing the bathroom into sight about twenty feet ahead. I was completely certain that my mother was about ten feet behind me on the couch in the living room based on earlier information. As soon as I had line of sight on the bathroom, but before I consciously perceived anything about it, I almost lost my balance as a human-sized multi-colored blur streaked past me on the right at highway speeds or better. The streak ended at my mother, who I then saw kneeling, cleaning the toilet. My expectation that she was behind me was strong enough that my brain wouldn't allow me to perceive otherwise until it could provide bridging information, even if the bridging information made no physical sense. No one can move like that.

The "open the door over and over" exercise is about practicing and building expectation, until the brain prioritizes expectation over perception. I don't know if it's a good technique, but I understand the rationale.

The imposition guides I've read often don't even make sense, don't even come across as being techniques or exercises. But what little I've been able to make out of them suggests that the two most important components are synthesizing perceptions and creating expectations.

-Ember
Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]
Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017
Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Unseelie Court, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#4
To me, imposition = visualization + dissociation. And the "move the dots" thing never made sense to me. I've been able to see white objects as tinted different colors by thinking about it for years, but I don't call that imposition. I want to see full objects, outlines, tulpas, not static dots moving or changing color... I'm sure that method can help someone, but if it's not you, no worries.

That blurry imagery, those vague impressions... those are what I'd work on. Those are also called "a start to something." Sometimes, you aren't going to be able to 'get it' like others. I had dedicated 4 years to an airtight mental wall, and I had no clue how to bypass it until after I did it. Still can't really describe it. Does that make sense or am I rambling?
Even if you don't know what you're doing, try. Chase after the fleeting moments where you go "huh, is that... the right track?" Your "wishful thinking" and "blurry imagery" could be the start of your brain (and by extension, the two of you) figuring out what it means to impose or to visualize.

And, if you can cultivate those emotional feelings, use those. Much more accessible and (imo) nearly as fulfilling as visual imposition, is feeling a tulpa's 'presence' just as realistically as a physical person, standing in front of you. I'm still working on that with Cassidy- he wants to feel near that real, even when he's just passively around.

Good luck to you both. I know it must be frustrating.
-J
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#5
Disassociation has nothing to do with imposition
I have a tulpa named Miela (formerly known as Monika) who I love very much.


"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"
-Me
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#6
Not to derail the thread, but I think it does. I think disassociation is the difference between "sound in my head" and "sound outside of my head." Most people can do overlay visualization, but dissociation is the special sauce that makes it real, though the quality might not improve. The quality of the hallucination/imposition has to do with visualization, but the hallucination itself is a hallucination because your brain is no longer associating the self-generated image with being 'in your head', and instead allows it to be 'in the world', though of course most tulpa hosts aren't deluded about it and also understand that they're hallucinating, not actually seeing their tulpas via light bouncing to the eye.

What do people say to those who are hallucinating? "It's all in your head, it's all you. You're just seeing things because your brain is playing tricks on you." It's a very rude thing to say, but the interesting implication is that hallucinations are caused by "you" not fully accepting/internalizing the fact that "what you see is just your brain playing tricks." In other words, dissociation of the source of the image/sensation as a hallucination.

-J

Edit: left out a few crucial words
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#7
Visual imposition is visualization, but convincing your brain it's happening outside of your head. All of the imposed senses are basically that, but visualization is the easiest to.. picture, for beginners. I'm not sure I'd call it dissociation, especially not in this community where dissociation is so heavily associated with switching, but I guess in a sense that word works.

I didn't use any guides for switching or imposition, personally, simply hearing about them here was enough for me to go about making my own methods. Imposition was the easier to explain by far, too. Just try and visualize your tulpa in reality. Imagine seeing them in front of you, in the open air (personally I found doing so and then trying to walk around them increased the visualization clarity a ton as opposed to staying still, and my visualization sucks so this helped a lot). I used my hands to sort of "shape" them spatially, which I'm sure was only half necessary because my visualization was so poor, the other half to help associate the visualization with open air/real space. Who knows, maybe this part was the crucial game changer for me learning imposition and I didn't even know it, but either way I still recommend it to everyone we give advice on imposition to.

Seriously though, it's not much more complicated than "Trying to see your tulpa in real life". True hallucinations will never be controlled or reliable, so don't bother screwing with your eyes and stuff, it's more likely to hurt than help. Honestly, just try and look at where you're imagining your tulpa should be, then walk around them to see them from different angles. It won't be perfectly accurate 1 to 1, but that's fine. As long as you can start to convince your brain (not even you yourself, which makes this easy peasy IMO..) that it should be seeing something there, it should start to get easier to do so. You do have to spend a decent amount of time doing this, likely not getting super clear results to encourage you, but not only is that how tulpamancy tends to start anyway, I did it simply believing I could and I'm incredibly lazy.


Once your visualization of your tulpa is clear enough, you should have them try moving around and accompanying you places as often as you can. For me, that "visualization autonomy" works just like normal visualization in wonderlanding, ie I'm the one imposing or visualizing but my tulpas can do their own actions whilst I'm doing that. It should take just some minor effort on your tulpa's part to associate themselves with the imposed form, or at least it did for us. Half on you, to think of it as being them, half on them, to think of it as being them. We're obviously good at controlling our mind in these sorts of ways so maybe that "association" part might be harder for some, but hopefully it isn't. Hopefully, it's a skill that comes with tulpa autonomy, and you can just apply it to your visually imposed form by thinking it so.

As someone who hardly has the motivation to spend "hours" a week doing something, I practiced seeing my tulpas more clearly imposed in my room maybe every other day on average for like 20 minutes the first two weeks of trying, along with having them (all three, at the time) walk around my campus with me, especially between classes. I'd try and have them imposed during lecture classes too, but it was mainly between classes that we'd talk and get the most practice I think. I think it was really only a 2-3 week period that I accredit our "learning imposition" to, and it was less "intensive" (again, sorely lacking motivation as a chemical problem with my brain) and more "habitual". Highly worth it, though.

As a side note, while I exclusively "imposed" my tulpas, there's nothing stopping you from practicing with other objects too. Since my visualization clarity is so dang poor, I can't really recommend trying to impose an apple or something to start off with (just start trying to see your tulpa, really), that is an option if you'd prefer. "Imposing" visualizations on your reality is something I'd call neuromancy, which really doesn't exist anymore since the one forum associated with it is gone, but here's a thread from 2014 that talked about it, even said it was like imposition. I'd call imposing objects neuromancy... but no one else would, so maybe we should just fall back on "wonderland imposition" and pretend tulpa imposition isn't just a subcategory of a much larger skill that has little relevance here on .info. Dunno, just felt like mentioning it in case anyone searches the word or something.


The end result of imposition as I've done it is a model I think of as "Visual input from your eyes -> your brain -> (imposition overlayed on top) -> conscious perception". You'll still be able to see through your tulpa and act as if they aren't real but, done correctly, you should be able to look and feel as if they are there, too. The "hallucination" aspect is convincing yourself something not real, is. While it isn't actually hallucinating in some sense, in another it is, hence why we all use that word. I think it can be misleading though, especially with so many people trying sensory deprivation and stuff to make their tulpas more "real". As far as I can tell, imposition has the same upper limit as visualization, in that it can get incredibly clear and maybe more fulfilling if you just work on it a lot. If you focus on seeing more details as I'm too lazy to, those details will become more clear. Works for tactile and auditory etc. imposition all the same.

This will not make your tulpas "real". First off, it's unhealthy to think of tulpas as only "real" if they can occupy physical reality, because that's impossible, at least at this point in history. Dunno what shenanigans technology might allow in the future. Second, imposition should be used as a tool to let your tulpas better experience physical reality with you, perhaps the tulpa equivalent of a host imagining themselves in the wonderland. It's a method that lets you share more experiences together even if they aren't fully "real". They're real to you guys, which is what matters.

If you're seeking 100% "real" interactions with your tulpa, I highly recommend the only real stable solution (and aside from being difficult, it's incredibly rewarding): Lucid Dreaming
Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
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#8
From my veiw, imposition is a skill separate from disassociation, and only partially connected to visualisation. Sure you're not associating the phsudohallucinations (hallucinations that you know aren't real) with coming from your mind, but simply not associating one thing with another isn't dissociation, that's like saying that not associating an apple with the theory of reletivity is dissociation.

Also, in my experience imposition is just as stable and satisfying for interacting with tulpas as lucid dreaming, except it can be done at any time, so I definitely don't think it's accurate to call lucid dreaming "the only real and stable solution".
I have a tulpa named Miela (formerly known as Monika) who I love very much.


"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"
-Me
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#9
Assuming open-eyed visualization doesn't count, the two forms of imposition we were able to pull of were smell and touch. I personally find touch imposition more rewarding, but Ranger seems to appreciate smell imposition more than I do. I'm far from an expert in either of these departments, but I can occasionally get a stronger sensation from touch and one time Ranger could smell a bag of salt and vinegar chips far away from the kitchen.

The reason smell imposition came to me naturally is because I don't have a good sense of smell to begin with. Half the time I'm guessing what something smells like, and I suppose I taught myself imposition by trying to make an effort to smell anything. For this, I recommend giving yourself something to smell that has a strong but not overwhelming sent like a smelly candle, marker, gum, etc. and then give yourself a chance to be familiar with the scent and smell it multiple times. Then, walk away from it and use nose plugs and prevent yourself from smelling anything (don't pinch your nose unless that's something you can do for awhile without being too uncomfortable). Then, try to smell the scent again. If you can get a whiff of it, you're on the right track!

With touch imposition, I do what Lumi does and impose Ranger either with me or by my side during class change. Ranger sometimes imposes himself by my side, but he grew tired of dodging people all the time and decided to impose himself on my shoulders. Thinking about how his weight is weighing down my shoulders, how much pressure he's putting on my neck, shoulders, and back, how warm he is, the texture and how it feels to have his body snuggled up against me, etc. are helpful in giving me more information on what to expect, and understanding that sensation as helped me make those feelings start to feel more real. As the others were saying, emotional presence will make this easier. For example, if Reilyn is feeling playful and she gives you a hug, it may be a little bit natural to expect the hug to be a little rough as she crashes into you and squeezes you tight. How Reilyn is feeling can help you match up with what movements and actions she will do when imposed.

The other thing that helps is letting Reilyn figure out where she wants to impose herself when you're in the middle of doing something. For example, when I'm on the computer Ranger will usually shrink down and either sit on my laptop screen, sit on my head, and sometimes stand on my computer and touch the screen or completely block the screen to get my attention.
My Wonderland form minus the glasses and the fur when Ranger comes up and surprises me with a hug, hence "surprise kitten". I'm still not a hippo, I promise.
I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

My other Tulpas have their own account now.
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#10
(12-18-2018, 01:33 PM)Breloomancer Wrote: Also, in my experience imposition is just as stable and satisfying for interacting with tulpas as lucid dreaming, except it can be done at any time, so I definitely don't think it's accurate to call lucid dreaming "the only real and stable solution".

To wanting to physically interact with your tulpa?(which is what that part was about) Without extremely immersive visualization/wonderlanding (which.. you wouldn't be looking for such a thing if you already had it) or god-tier imposition like AGGuy had, it really is your only option. I have no idea how much practice it would take to raise poor visualization to extremely immersive, but if it's possible, it's surely a slow progression that would take most of the impactfulness away purely from how long it took to get there. And if your lucid dreams aren't lifelike, you're either not stabilizing them or are just unfortunate (or more complicated things, like the time you're having them isn't the best, I dunno).

I'm all for advocating being happy with what you have, tulpas aren't physically real and you shouldn't expect them to ever be. But if you do... Oh, also, I went slightly off topic because I made that post a "reference post" for imposition/"making your tulpas seem real" for the future, not directly at Lance and Reilyn. Sorry if it came off weird because of that, but I'll be linking back to it elsewhere in the future.
Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
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