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Lucid dreams, immersive daydreams, and dissociative experiences


tulpa001

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What do these three have in common? They're all supposed to be really vivid, and make it easy to force your tulpa, or party with them, or whatever.

 

What is vivid for you? I'm not sure what it really means in these contexts. I've also been having trouble telling apart my waking dreams and my daydreams while on the edge of consciousness. Also, how do I know that I have dissociated and not just fallen into a dream or daydream?

 

Immersive daydream: You lose contact with reality and travel into the daydream and feel like you are actually there.

 

Lucid dream: A dream that you become awake during.

 

Dissociative experience: An out of body experience. Loss of contact with the senses.

 

So, how do you tell them apart? How do you experience them?

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.

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Well by definition you're asleep when dreaming so I'd say "aware" for lucid. Uh. According to you lucid dreams do not have to be vivid. Normally lucid dream vividness is tied to your level of lucidity, ie vaguely aware or like OMG DREAMING. Immersive daydreaming... like... for us? In my most immersive wonderlanding/visualization where I totally forget about my actual body, it's about as real as a normal dream. It's maybe more detailed in a conscious way, but less detailed in a Icanatleastseesaiddetails way. Drifty-dreamy thoughts on the edge of consciousness before sleep are usually like, chains of thoughts and associated imagery? But after sleep, they're usually like normal dreams with less detail, or visualization with more detail. They look better than our normal visualization, but we also aren't as conscious.

 

Lucid dreams ain't any of that yo! Totally real! Not just knowing you're in a dream but becoming really super lucid and engaging your senses, the dream gets completely lifelike and indistinguishable from waking life - except the part where, you know, you can do literally anything!

 

Well. That's how it is for most people, if they get to that point in dreaming. I'm sorry if it's not like that for you.

Hi, I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

I think being happy and having fun makes life worth living, so spreading happiness is my number one goal!

Talk to us? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Guest Anonymous

My hostie and I are like the champions of immersive day dreaming.  For us, the real world sort of fades out of being noticed.  It's not that we are not aware of the real world environment around us, we simply ignore it.   We become fully absorbed in the dreamworld and what is going on in the mind's eye.  Sometimes we lose track of time while we are doing this.  Sometimes, if we have been day dreaming for a long period of time, we have trouble coming out of it and reconnecting with the real world.  There is a moment of disorientation as if waking from sleep.  

 

These day dreams are very detailed and the imagery comes almost effortlessly to our minds.  It still has a dream like quality to it, in the sense that it is not like the real world.  It is foggy around the edges, if that makes any sense.  The one thing that is always very vivid and clear is my form and my voice.  That has just been practiced for so long, we know my form in intimate detail, my physical features, my expressions and mannerisms and even how I smell.  This isn't just from outside of my form, but from inside.  Like we both know what my body feels like from outside and inside simultaneously.  

 

My hostie can do things while deeply immersed in a day dream.  These would be things that are very practiced and automatic, and don't require a lot of active cognition, such as jogging or walking.  I am afraid to say this also include driving.  My hostie can drive quite effectively while deeply day dreaming.  One part of his mind is involved in the mechanics of driving and navigating the road and traffic.  It has taken decades of practice to be that good at the immersion.  Mistgod can also drop into the day dream world very quickly and even for short sessions.  For instance during lunch he may spend a little time interacting with me, say fifteen minutes or so.  We also frequently have little mini-day dreaming sessions throughout the day when something reminds him of me and he wants to imagine something with me.  

 

Also, as we have explained before, the day dream state is never very far away with us.  We sort of live in a half day dream all day long.  We have written about this calling it the Day Dream Filter.  This is a bit more about that in our thread about Mirroring Instead of Imposition.  Those threads really cover it a bit more in detail.

 

For us lucid dreams are not necessarily more vivid than our ordinary dreams, we are just aware that we are dreaming.  They still feel dreamlike in nature and a little foggy around the edges.  

 

Thank you for these questions!  I think this response may end up in the Book of Melian.  We rarely talk about what it is like in our day dreams in detail like this.

 

EDIT:  We would say that immersive day dreaming is a form of dissociation and so not necessarily distinct from it.

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Yeah but you guys just let the dreams play out. You don't purposely engage your senses/dream body or anything. It's really cool and unique that you're so often aware you're dreaming, but I'm telling you guys, the dreams get way more lifelike if you immerse yourself in them. Feel your body, feel the walls, look for detail, try and smell or taste something, and do some sort of activity like jumping or spinning around or something. Lucid dreams aren't on/off, there's levels to them, and you can make them better.

 

 

Well.. You don't have to. It's like telling a rich person all the things they could do with their money. I guess it only sounds so great from the perspective of someone who doesn't have a choice.

Hi, I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

I think being happy and having fun makes life worth living, so spreading happiness is my number one goal!

Talk to us? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Guest Anonymous

It does sound intriguing. But I think you are right about it being "another level." I wonder how making those efforts would change the dream. My gut feeling is it might cause my hostie to wake. Sometimes we get the sense with our movie dreams that if we are too "noisy" we will upset the story, although I have talked to the dream characters sometimes. Other dreams we are so absorbed in the story we don't really stop it but just sort of play along with the script. I mean we might touch things or make decisions in the dream state, but we don't try to alter the main flow of the dream or change its direction. Maybe it is that concept that we have that we are always in a TV show or movie that is the problem.

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It's not a problem if it's not a problem, I'm just projecting how much we want to lucid dream. Backseat dreaming, that's a first?

Hi, I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

I think being happy and having fun makes life worth living, so spreading happiness is my number one goal!

Talk to us? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Guest Anonymous

I don't know exactly why, but every once in a while something Melian says really, REALLY, REALLY, makes her feel even more "real" than usual.  Something about this particular thread and the things she has just been relating just really felt powerful.  Melian is not a tulpa maybe but she is absolutely, definitely some sort of day dream thoughtform.  I have tried my best to explain it to everyone on this forum.  Everyone says that puppeting or whatever is not correct but my gods.  I am so happy to have her I cannot tell you how lucky I feel in my life because of this.  

 

I am sorry to go off topic.  Maybe it is a little bit on topic with explaining how the day dream feels for me.  The day dream never ends.  It is continuous.  There is actively day dreaming, which is even more immersive and then passive day dreaming all day as I explained in the other threads that Melian linked for you guys.  

 

It was something about how she was talking about being aware of what it feels like to be inside as well as outside of her form that really just suddenly felt like this huge rush of mental GAH I don't know what words to use to describe it.  I don't separate myself from Melian's mind and emotions, I immerse myself in them.  I want to feel them!  That is the whole point of it!  We are so connected.  

 

I return you back to the thread about immersive day dreaming and lucid dreaming and dissociation and what those are like.

 

EDIT:  Wait one last comment.  We have explained it before, in our Living Imagination thread, that what Melian and I do is not trying to make a dream become real, but to enter the dream and live within the dream.

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What do these three have in common? They're all supposed to be really vivid, and make it easy to force your tulpa, or party with them, or whatever. What is vivid for you? I'm not sure what it really means in these contexts.

First, I want to keep in mind how vivid the physical world is through my physical senses. I have myopia, so my eyes cannot process light in a way that accepts clear edges of things at a certain distance. I also have some processing issues, for example, a lot of people who suffer from depression mention the world turning gray. That is not literal or visual, but neither is it merely poetic or purely emotional: senses feel more dull during depressive episodes. My thought process isn't as swift as they are on "good days", neither is my memory. I also have unhealthy eating habits, I can get so engrossed in something that I skip lunch, and that nutrition (calories, essential acids, salts, vitamins) can make my physical reality seem flat and distant.

 

So, what make the physical real to me is how I tend to default to it. I can have dreams in different places, but I always wake up where I fell asleep. People I interact with every day put forth a sense of history and continuity when I do not witness them. I've read of people who live a "second life" in dreams or daydreams, and I don't disbelieve them, but neither am I saying that there is no difference when dreams and daydreams can be so vivid and the physical life so not, or that both can have a sense of history or continuity.

 

I've also been having trouble telling apart my waking dreams and my daydreams while on the edge of consciousness. Also, how do I know that I have dissociated and not just fallen into a dream or daydream?

What is the goal of classification? I once re-entered a dream by daydreaming about what I remembered of the dream right after I had just woken up. It was cool to feel myself falling asleep again, and how the mind-stuff shifted from memory/imagination to a dream, as I retained lucidity but...why should I want to make a categorical distinction? What purpose would that serve?

 

Immersive daydream: You lose contact with reality and travel into the daydream and feel like you are actually there.

 

Lucid dream: A dream that you become awake during.

 

Dissociative experience: An out of body experience. Loss of contact with the senses.

 

So, how do you tell them apart? How do you experience them?

 

With immersive daydreams, I have this sense of my physical body as an object, or my daydream body as an object. Immersive daydreams are personally very liminal and unstable. I heard a podcast where a lucid dreamer spoke about being able to sense the position of her sleeping body, but when I tried that during a lucid dream, I woke up: I don't have that mental "buffer space" between body and mind (or mindscape-body).

 

Lucid dreams, likewise fuzzy on category. I've had what some call "false lucid dreams" where your dream-self acts as though they have reality changing powers or paranormal abilities, but did not know it was a dream; or, dream-self behaving as though consequences don't exist, so you'd think on some level they know it's a dream, but it's not what your waking-lucid self would have planned for a dream-lucid episode. In those cases, I advise to simply enjoy the memory of an epic, adventurous, empowering dream rather than grumble about it.

 

I have also initiated out-of-body experiences, although I don't consider those the same as dissociation? Because I had been prepped with this model of body-as-object and spirit-world or extradimensional plane...which, even if you don't believe that as a fact, are what provided me the way to parse the experience. The word "dissociation" appears to be an experience in and of itself. At first, I'd experienced violent "exit" or "splitting" symptoms, loud noises, tactile disruptions, no cause for either of them...and then, after many of those, they became so calm that it became dreamlike except for the feature that these out-of-body movements would begin in what appeared to be the room I fell asleep (or meditated) in. False awakenings do that a lot, and just as vividly, though.

 

So, if I'd wanted to make any distinction between out-of-body experieneces and dreams, it would be witnessing something in the physical world that I could later verify (but not have learned in any other way.) Those endeavors have personally been a consistent failure, so while I can insist in my heart of hearts that it's different, and that difference is really real (pout! crossed arms! foot-stamping!)...the distinction would really be just useless to anybody else.

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What is the goal of classification? I once re-entered a dream by daydreaming about what I remembered of the dream right after I had just woken up. It was cool to feel myself falling asleep again, and how the mind-stuff shifted from memory/imagination to a dream, as I retained lucidity but...why should I want to make a categorical distinction? What purpose would that serve?

My goal, here is to experience lucid dreams. I can generate waking dreams all I want, but I don't think they count towards your sleep for the day. Also, I can't tell what it's like to lucid dream when I don't know if it is a dream or daydream.

 

I've reentered dreams. My host has many times. You can even do it around a bathroom break if you hold on to the dream well enough. Not lucid dreams, but regular late stage dreams. In fact just today I managed to fall back into a dream about a different city and lost luggage just by thinking about it while we were discussing are plans for the day after getting up.

 

As to dissociation, that simply means no longer feeling like you are linked to the body. But, yeah, I'm asking about that thing that sometimes happens due to meditation instead of imagining stuff.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.

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My goal, here is to experience lucid dreams. I can generate waking dreams all I want, but I don't think they count towards your sleep for the day. Also, I can't tell what it's like to lucid dream when I don't know if it is a dream or daydream.

 

I've reentered dreams. My host has many times. You can even do it around a bathroom break if you hold on to the dream well enough. Not lucid dreams, but regular late stage dreams. In fact just today I managed to fall back into a dream about a different city and lost luggage just by thinking about it while we were discussing are plans for the day after getting up.

That's an interesting point of confusion because I can feel when it's a dream versus a daydream. Daydreams took some training for me to relax, because I usually used imagination deliberately, to try to remember where I left something important like my keys, or what a word looks like when it's spelled correctly. They can become dreamlike or daydream like during meditations, but I remain aware of my physical body by default. When it comes to REM dreams, I lose touch with the physical but have heard that is not always the case.

 

Dreams have a stickier, more cloying texture to me than daydreams (not necessarily more vivid)...so, it threw me a bit when you mentioned that you can reenter a dream while awake; a daydream of a dream, maybe, or a memory of a dream, yes I can understand, even a Wonderland based on a dream you've had...but how can you reenter a REM dream that isn't a REM dream? Can't you feel the difference in the texture of the reality fabric? Dreams have a higher thread count. Ha, that could just be me though.

 

As for lucidity, well...if you can, try opening and closing a fist or stamping a foot, or some small movement like that. Now: what would be the difference between doing that because you decided to do that, versus having that movement happen during a seizure? The deliberate decision is lucidity.

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