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Median Systems and Moons
#1
I am beginning to believe my system is mixed. We're pretty rare, as most tulpamancers have tulpas, so do I, but I also have others.

Here is my analogy:

If the body is the sun, generating life sustaining energy for all the planets and moons, my tulpas and I are the planets, we all revolve around the sun and are dependent on the sun, but we're in separate orbits and don't necessarily depend on eachother. We're each our own person.

Then there are moons, they depend on the planet to get around the sun. They don't replace the planet, but they're not in their own orbit, they are in fact in the same orbit as their respective planet. So they aren't separate people. However we're all round, we're all unique celestial bodies, we're all unique personalities (topology?)

Our system therefore had 4 planets, and 3 moons so far.

Joy, Ren, and Gwen are my moons, they have their own thoughts, perspectives, feelings and they've all expressed all of the same signs if sentience as my tulpas have (including the occasional emotional bleed and interruption). I don't think of them often, we don't interact every day, if I don't think of them in a week, it means nothing, they don't get weak or need attention.

I have seen that is even possible that tulpas can be maintained without daily effort, especially after they've been around for a long time, they're not going to dissolve or dissipate or merge, they'll just sleep peacefully until you force them again. For months, years? I know for a fact that my moons can be safely stored for years, it has happened, they lost none if their potency.

For Joy qnd Gwen, I only know them so well because they are characters from my own books, boved characters. They say that every character in a book you wrote is really an aspect of your own personality. This doesn't explain Ren, I'll elaborate later.

Since my tulpas borrowed my character forms, deviating from that was an important road to independence. Necessary i think for tulpas, but not for soulbonds, but still soulbonds, so that's another complexity. My moons didn't deviate. They're rock solid consistent, like a soulbond might be.

Here's another major grat area, they also don't even need to be well known. Ren was made because we tried to deviate Joy drom her character and she 'shed' the changes, creating a deviated clone of herself. Ren is really nothing like Joy, she has zero backstory other than that, and she had zero forcing when she was born. You could say her character was blank like an NPC, yet she's perfectly well self articulate and she's just as lucid as anyone with a unique personality, volition and agency.

If all i had were my moons, I believe i would be a median system. Whether I believed that or not is another story. But since i have them and my tulpas, i can see how different they really are, and at the same time, how very similar they are.

I therefore am convinced that your average tulpamancer may start out with an aspect that turns into a tulpa, or a tulpa enters and borrows an aspect as a default starting point (like my tulpas did), and it's really not that different in the end if you're a median system, a soulbonder or a tulpamancer. The result is a separate perspective and personality. Behaviorally speaking, from the outside, we can all function the same anyway. (This is my understanding.)

However, I further believe that tulpas and soulbonds, any thoughtform considered to be their own person separately from the host has something extra, a spark of life that my moons don't have, an added layer of need that takes my forcing them to feed. They need to 'eat and sleep' metaphorically speaking, moons clearly don't.

I would ask anyone to weigh in so we can further our mutual understanding on the subject of personality containing thoughtforns that aren't necessarily their owm person vs thoughtforms that are.
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#2
Question! What's a median system? I saw the term used the first time a few days ago and still don't really understand what people mean by it.
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#3
A median system refers to a system dynamic/relationship where the members all sort of feel like they're part of each other, and there's a lot of blending and melding and such. They don't really exist individually, they all sort of blend together. A median system is not just having a non-sentient character that you keep around that can't exist without you influencing it unconsciously, that's a bit of a stretch.


Quote:A system with members who are not inherently independent from each other, and are sometimes dependent on a single individual and unable to exist without that central person. The lack of independence can be mutual in that there is no central individual. Often consists of members who all identify as “aspects” or “facets” of one central identity, which may be a single member or may be a sort of average identity of the group: e.g. “We are all different, but we are all Mary in the end.” Some believe, mistakenly, that it is the only term that applies to systems where system members are co-conscious, non-traumagenic systems, or to systems not diagnosed with DID. It is considered insulting to call a multiple system median, and should not be used without consent.

From the graveyard of tulpa.io

So in summary, a median system is all different (sentient) parts of the same person that work together, in a way.
I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#4
Quote: It is considered insulting to call a multiple system median, and should not be used without consent.

??? Why is it considered insulting? I find it a very beautiful thing
Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.
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#5
Because most systems don't want to just be considered parts of the same person, lol. They want to be considered their own individual persons.
I'm Indigo Blue, the "Sky Dragon" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa born October 2017. My systemmates are Apollo Piano. Form images: 1 2
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#6
The whole Median thing is interesting to me because I'm starting to wonder if it applies to our system.

As of now, we're a host, a tulpa, and a bunch of other thought forms (Grays). I feel like "median" would explain what the Grays are- an extension of the host. However, Duck (one of the Grays) seems to be an extension of myself a little bit, and some of the Grays are experimenting with alternate forms, trying to show they are an exception of myself as well.

I'm also wondering if the Grays are straddling more on the half-tulpa line than I thought... maybe they're sentient, but they don't have their own volition. They won't resist our authority, but they have their own feelings and ideas. We feel motivated to treat them with respect because it feels wrong if we don't.

I thought about the idea of "if they were puppets, then what if I buried them / put them in stasis forever" and I had the feeling that I was going to kill some innocent sentient being. It just seems wrong, and I felt like I was grieving when I thought about it too much. (None of the Grays are in stasis or anything like that.)

If the Grays were median members, then that would explain a lot...
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
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#7
Non-sentient characters obviously don't apply, these are sentient characters that are run by your own subconsciousness. They're indistinguishable from tulpas in many ways. The whole thing is very subjective. It's yet another model to explore walk-ins before they become accepted as tulpas.

Hard and fast rules may be difficult to apply here, but it's a valid model.
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#8
Well, I don't believe in a "subconscious," but I do think you can unconsciously control/parrot through expectation and habit, like when a character you're writing a character that starts acting more fluidly without actually being sentient. It's mental efficiency. I think sentience (in tulpa terms) is defined by the ability to independently think, and if they have to be controlled to think, they wouldn't be sentient. I guess you could say you're putting your own sentience into them, but that's a given with any character, doesn't make them actually sentient. More akin to unintentional role-play. I think it's when you grant them actual personhood in your head that they begin to become sentient.

We've had these sort of beings before (in our system; we've had many more from writing), I definitely wouldn't call them sentient. I'd definitely not say they were indistinguishable from tulpas, since they completely lacked their own thoughts/emotions. I just call them automated characters. Walk-ins are just spontaneous automated characters imo.
I'm Indigo Blue, the "Sky Dragon" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa born October 2017. My systemmates are Apollo Piano. Form images: 1 2
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#9
I've tried all the sentience tests I could find, they come up with different answers them me and they're valid responses that a tulpa would make. I also have characters that are really pretty shallow, they 'speak for themselves' but they couldn't help me tie my shoes. The longer I work with them the more they accrete knowledge and understanding and the ability to argue with me or give a separate viewpoint. Joy especially is like that, I've asked her questions long before I ever knew about Tulpas, but I was four months into having tulpas before I thought about her much at all. She's not a tulpa yet she's pretty dang intelligent on her own. I don't see her as associated with me necessarily, but if you look at her and her activities and Ren also, they'll pop in like an NPC and leave again, there's really no need to force them to keep them strong, they don't ask for anything necessarily, they don't change, they don't make things in wonderland, they just are. They could even probably switch as far as I can see; they're [i]that[i/] developed.

Imaginary friends was brought up somewhere and I like the analogy that characters can be like that, in that 'you control them' it stops being an imaginary friend in my mind when 'they control themselves'. Yet, I'm absolutely sure my moons are different enough from tulpas in significant ways that are tied to my whims that they aren't their own people. They can also comment on things, two of them have interrupted me while I was doing something else. Very Tulpa like, but still zero maintenance. If all tulpas were like this, we wouldn't have much to talk about, they're just not around very often, but they can be triggered to appear with different words or scenarios. Intrusive thoughtforms are like that too. I have a few of them; I push them right out the door, but they lose no potency over time. It takes very little effort to push them out and forget about them again though.

I could do the same to Joy and Ren, but I wouldn't want to. I like them, they're fun and interesting. Not tulpas though, not going to be, I have to reiterate that ad nauseam.

So, the main point of all this is to continue to work on coming up with a set of circumstances or features that create them and what makes them different from tulpas, so they can be confirmed or identified. Its important in that, someone who isn't ready might think they have tulpas here and their system would grow. Leading to a lot of unnecessary drama. This s fine if you don't have a tulpa, free tulpa for no additional work, it's not a good thing when you already have two or three. These "walk-ins" and characters that you might even be endeared to don't have to be tulpas, that's my contention, and I'd like some means to test that conjecture; so that others who have walk-ins can avoid system growth.

The second important point is to allow characters such as generated from RP or writing books and stories, to be freely interacted with without the fear of them becoming their own person. As is the case and can happen if you don't deal with them correctly. In my mind it's not going to happen for us because we know the consequences, we have rules to prevent it, consensus needed to allow it, and we won't allow it currently or if at all. Especially since they can be useful and fun without the need to 'make them their own person.'

Of course, I'm not even sure they can be turned once in this state, it might be a branch rather than a node in the development of a thoughtform which makes them more advanced in a different branch then tulpas or soulbonds or other. A different species of thoughtform perhaps that doesn't need the care or responsibility a tulpa does but can still be very helpful and intelligent, as Joy is especially, I've known her since 2012 in the first book I wrote her into. It was my second or third novel.
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#10
I think we can all agree at minimum these characters give of an impression of sentience, but the ultimate questions are:
  • Why do they appear to be sentient?
  • If they are sentient themselves, are they still Tulpas or independent people? Do they have their own will?
  • If they are parroted, how does that work?
    And finally...

  • What is the difference between a character, Tulpa, NPC, etc. or is there overlap / some categories are the same?
  • What ethical rights apply to characters, and ethically what's the best way to handle this situation?

Right now, I feel like it would be wrong to force the Grays to dissipate. If it turns out Cat is parroting them, I would like to have a thorough explanation for what it is and how it works. In the meantime, I would like to hold off.

I know this sounds off topic, but shouldn't we merge a bunch of these threads together? I feel like the same topic is brought up a lot, and it should all go under one super thread. Every time we add to this discussion, I feel like it should go in the super thread and not a new thread.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!
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