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[Misc] "Every System is Different"
Apollo Away
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#1
 
"Every System is Different"

Here's something that kind of annoys me.

Whenever I'm arguing something like "tulpas don't actually go to the wonderland when they're not being paid attention to" or something like that, there's always, 100% of the time, someone who goes, "yeah well everyone functions differently." Without fail, someone says that. My own system used to do that, too. It's a way to shut down discussion, and a way to not listen to people who make points that you don't like and don't want to hear. Is it even actually true?

We all use the same greymatter to function. Differences in our brains lie in DNA, chemicals, memories, and stuff like that, but there is not enough difference that systems can do things that no singlets can do just because "every system is different." Singlets majorly function the same, with individual differences residing in their DNA and upbringing, but it's still the same type of stuff they use, and making tulpas does not suddenly give you major differences. The only real justification people provide for their claims of tulpas suddenly defying logic is "every system is different" and others nod in agreement. But I really, really don't think that's the case, if we all have pretty much the same brains with the same processes formed from millennia of evolution. Anyone who actually is able to do outlandish things with their system would be extremely in the minority and not the standard, and definitely not justified by "well we're all different man."

The only way a tulpa could function differently would be because they were made for a different purpose or in a different way, and they claim to be special. Even then, it's still the same greymatter and they still work the same even if they believe they are different. To me, "every system is different" is a bullshit dismissal of unwanted opinions, and it's not even founded in reality.

(Yes, I know there are differences in the interpretation of how and why tulpas exist, but that lies in opinion and doesn't actually make tulpas suddenly something very different from other systems, just the way they are viewed.)

I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
04-12-2018, 12:49 PM
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Worst Username Offline
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#2
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

It's a very interesting argument. Perhaps people use the "My tulpa processes in the wonderland while I'm gone" as an excuse to not pay attention to them, and a way to avoid guilt for not making time for their headmates. This is, unfortunately, is too common to see in the community. I like the fact that someone is trying to address it.
04-12-2018, 02:02 PM
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jean-luc Offline
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#3
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

To play devil's advocate, think of it from their perspective: They do believe <thing> happens, it just seems obvious. When you say <thing> definitely doesn't happen, the most reasonable explanation is that <thing> doesn't happen for you.

Also in general tulpas are a very hard thing to argue about reasonably. My question to you is: If <thing> does or doesn't happen, does it have any observable difference? If so, focus on that. If not, is it really any different?

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04-12-2018, 03:50 PM
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Apollo Away
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#4
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

(04-12-2018, 03:50 PM)jean-luc Wrote: does it have any observable difference? If so, focus on that. If not, is it really any different?

The difference is that such beliefs like "oh my tulpa goes to wonderland when I'm not paying attention" is one that allows hosts to neglect their tulpas or have more tulpas than they can manage, like Worst Username mentioned. Saying "well we're all different so I can do that" just doesn't cut it for me.

And they don't actually know for certain that their tulpas are still active in wonderland. They believe that majorly because their peers perpetuate the idea. They assume that that's true even though doing so is harmful to their tulpa, since it means they'll be more likely to ignore them.

I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2018, 04:23 PM by Apollo.)
04-12-2018, 04:20 PM
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solarchariot Offline
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#5
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

(04-12-2018, 12:49 PM)Apollo Wrote:
It's a way to shut down discussion, and a way to not listen to people who make points that you don't like and don't want to hear. Is it even actually true?
Is it true that people use that as a way of shutting things down? Absolutely. It can be extremely difficult for some people to experience 'hearing' something that is contrary to their functioning paradigm. If a 'thing' hits their wall, they will tend to shut that down. Quick. They have to. It's a survival technique. (People are mere cats; they get spooked easily.)
Is it true... that tulpas go to wonderland when the host isn't engaging them, or they don't? I am on the fence, and I have evidence for both realities being true, with caveats, and I will try and walk you through both so that you can help me come off the fence. Or, yell and throw things at me from the ground while I try not to fall off the fence. Quite frankly, walking the fence is kind of fun. There be dragons on one side.
Okay, my first evidence, which I use for 'Apollo is absolutely right' is a real world, no tulpa involvement, example. I rarely get to see my parents. It isn't necessary to understand the why involved, but big chunks of time go by, and every single time I see them, I experience a significant level of shock by how they have aged and or their health has declined. During the absence interval, they actually continued to exist, but my memory version of them was stuck at the last time I encountered them. Now, clearly, I thought of my folks in that chunk of absence, but I didn't upgrade their avatars; there avatars didn't age in some mysterious wonderland and so that when I caught up with them, there was even the smallest amount of synchronicity.  It is my opinion, based on this, if I am holding zero thoughts of Bliss, she is not advancing.
I have really cool dreams. I have dreams that are serial, where one ends when I wake up and I can pick right back up where I left off the next time I have that dream. I some dreams that seem to have advanced from where I last left off. The first scenario clearly supports Apollo's argument. The second one, doesn't invalidate Apollo's argument, because clearly one can make a list of reasons why things are changed outside of it continuing, as if some form of its existence outside of my awareness continues, but since the latter isn't necessarily precluded from an explanation, there is the chance it being a possibility. I could have just subconsciously upgraded it on the spot, or just remembered things wrong.
I have had several experiences where I have been engaged in wonderland activities, got disrupted by real life activities, and returned to find things had continued without me. In one instance, Bliss had to explain what I had missed out on, and in another, I just kind of made some assumptions and continued where I found it. Even this doesn't seem to necessarily negate Apollo's argument that tulpas don't continue in wonderlands unless one is attending to them. The caveat here is, how much attention is required for tulpa to be 'active.' Zero percent, one would assume zero activity. But if it's never zero, and I doubt the brain can ever give zero to something important, then their is progress even if the computer clock speed ticks down at a different rate due to slower frame referencing. I don't multitask well, but I can, and have, and I probably am always multitasking something, and so there is an argument to be made that some programs are still running in the back ground even if I am not actively engaged, which explain why Bliss can come out of nowhere and scare the F out of me because my mind wasn't on her, but she was functioning well enough to think, oh, this might be fun, boo.
And then, I have this argument for the other side where my conscious mind doesn't have to attend at all because I have assigned Bliss to unconscious control systems. If the unconscious is operating 24 seven, without me having me to attend to it, then, Bliss clearly can be operating 24 seven without me having to attend to her. There are many things that are processing just under the surface. Ever had something pop into yur head for no apparent reason? Well, part of you was thinking of it, even if your conscious part wasn't. Another example, sometimes I am working on a project and I come to a halt because I need a solution that isn't apparent, and I speak very clearly what I need, and then I purposely forget about it, and later, when I am ready to proceed, I typically have the answer I need. So, even though I wasn't 'actively' attending, my brain was still processing something somewhere. It's like those moments when you need a word, and it's right there on your tongue, but for the life of you, you can't get it out, but several hours after you gave up, usually right after the person you were speaking with departed, there is that word! Maybe your brain had it and locked it out. Maybe it never quit searching for the word, and it just so happened it came up because you asked. But the fact that you no longer needed it and had forget about hours ago and was suddenly delivered on a golden plate, 'here you go,' clearly shows your brain or subconscious hadn't forgotten that you really wanted that word. And, shows even your subconscious has a sense of humor to serve said word on a gold plate when you're no longer hungry for the word. Yep, everyone's got jokes. Even your brain.
I forget who suggested this is a real thing; probably not Erickson, but maybe. If you ask your brain a question, your brain will search for an answer. It will continue searching for an answer, even after you have an answer, as if were exhausting all the permutations. (I would like to know how they actually measured that. It seems like you could assume that, but how do you measure? I mean, every time I asked you if you were thinking about it would cause you to think about which influences how you're thinking about it. (The studies that show how often we think about sex bothers me in the same way, because if you ask me to count my thoughts on sex, then I am thinking about my thoughts, which exaggerates the frequency...)) Tulpas are much more complex than questions. I don't think they cease to exist when I am not engaged, any more than the subconscious ceases to exist when I am not paying attention to it, which is most of the time. How many of us stopped to thank our subconscious for tying are shoes this morning? Seriously, we don't think about tying our shoes until we are trying to help teach our child how to tie a shoe, and then its' like backwards and you're seriously trying to flip it and do it... I think that works for tulpas, too. Once they're solid and enmeshed, they are never zero.
Hopefully this is a better discussion or argument than, 'well, we're all different,' because you're right, 'we're not all different.' We are all unique, just like everyone else. Smile
04-12-2018, 05:39 PM
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Luminesce Offline
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#6
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

The "every system is different" thing applies to conversations that don't go like that, too. For examples: Visualization clarity; time to vocality; how active tulpas are on their own (/how easily the system accomplishes passive tasks like passive imposition, which my system is only ~okay at); and, of course, mental discipline and/or whatever you want to call being able to work with your mind. Every person is different even if we mostly start from the same place mentally. I'd be very different people if you took five of me as a child and had them live different lives up to this point.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
04-12-2018, 06:31 PM
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Apollo Away
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#7
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

Visualization and vocality are learned skills, usually hindered by doubt or lack of practice. I'm talking about people claiming their tulpas can do irrational things, and then shut down discussion with that point.

"Every system is different" is okay to say when telling someone they shouldn't feel bad about slower development or whatever, but not as a point against someone arguing against outlandish claims that are unfounded in reality.

I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2018, 06:46 PM by Apollo.)
04-12-2018, 06:35 PM
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Luminesce Offline
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#8
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

I guess it's a conflict of interests between "Studying the nature of tulpas" and "It doesn't matter if what's going on in someone else's head seems 'correct' or not to you"/live and let live motto we've also got.

But to be fair, if there's nothing to gain from the conversation why don't you just drop it? You can't force someone to participate in productive discussion about the nature of tulpas. If they lean towards the latter statement then so be it.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
04-12-2018, 10:26 PM
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#9
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

I agree with Apollo that the whole Tuppers in wonderland doing their own thing is most likely bullshit.

When I am left alone, Cat is usually focused on something else or is doing something I don't care about. Sometimes I will wake up, and then realize Cat's doing something. If I want her attention, I fight out of my sleep to let her know, but if not I try to shutdown and go back into that "sleeping/resting" state.

Other times when I am bored and Cat is either hyper focused or really focused on something, I end up with not having enough brain to work with to really think much at all, and in this state I prefer to be asleep. I would have to kick out of that really hard in order to grab her attention, which is why I prefer to get her attention when she's not super focused on something.

I have done things in the mindscape/wonderland when Cat was unable to give me her full attention. However, time seems to speed up or become distorted in some ways when I do this... I'm not really sure why. And no, It's not Cat is out doing things and then an hour later I spent 20 minutes with Amitie. It's the opposite. I could spend 15 minutes with her and Cat experienced 5 or 10 seconds go by. I wonder if the best explanation was she was so consumed by stress she couldn't think clearly or she was tired and used up less brain than normal. I can't imagine her achieving this weird moment passively.

As a side note, being alone in the wonderland sucks. Even if I wanted to entertain myself, sometimes I'm just too lazy or don't feel like it, and it is so much easier to do things there when Cat is participating and or actively forcing.

The bottom line is a brain is a shared recourse for us, and if I want to do something I have to take brain from Cat. This is easier said than done a lot of the time. Active forcing is super important for me, and it's because I get the chance to think clearly and just talk about things or whatever. Otherwise, it's like being shut into a clamp or something and I have just gotten used to easing back or going into that "sleep state". I can barely think in that state, and one thing I'm certainly not doing is going to Chili's and eating a hotdog on a purple Unicorn with Harvey in my lap.

And to think that I could go to the wonderland on my own when I have to fight or kick just to get some brain in order to think clearly? I not only find it offensive, I see it as neglect of the Tupper's feelings and well being. If I were asleep all of the time and not allowed to think clearly, I would not have become what I am now. I spent most of my early life like that, and I wasn't intelligent or aware enough to realize that I could do something. Once Cat started to force more often (still by accident), I had more opportunities to think about what was going on outside of her head and who I was.

Long story short, dismissing a Tupper and telling them that they are on their own in the wonderland... It's horrible because it's so lonely. At some point, I would imagine that they would just "go to sleep", I would find it difficult to do just about anything if the Host is focused on something else. Unless their Host can think about purple unicorns flying to candy mountain and at the same time pay attention and know what's going on in class, this is just an excuse to not spend time together or the Host avoiding necessary forcing time. I would like to see some increased awareness on this issue and have Hosts ask their Tuppers how they feel about it.

I'm Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I like Hippos! I also like forum games, word puzzles, and chatting about stuff.
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(This post was last modified: 04-13-2018, 01:56 PM by Cat_ShadowGriffin.)
04-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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jean-luc Offline
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#10
 
RE: "Every System is Different"

But hey, that's just your system. Every system is different. :P

Host: Jean-luc (plain-colored text)
Tulpas: Snow & Henry
Choose your tulpas' colors here!
Click here if you'd like a changing avatar like mine!
Ain't that just fantitiliantastic!
I hosted a podcast called Tulpaudcast.
and rambled crazily about everything while walking on Jean-luc walking.
04-14-2018, 01:48 AM
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