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Phenom and Fiora :: Progress Report
#31
Hm... I can visualize quite well, but other than constructed object rotation, pan, and zoom, i don't think i can actually make anything else that is supposed to move, 'move'. They certainly do move and fly and wave signs, whatever, but in my mind even NPC's follow a very rudimentary suggestion, 'go over there' i don't really picture them doing that actively. Instead they just do it as i watch. I can parrot movement and voice in writing or by knowing what i want a thoughtform to do, but once the thoughform is a high enough level, they don't have to follow my suggestions. That is the reason behind 'releasing' certain thoughtforms in my system, because they were helpful and they started to pop up on their own. Of course there are some who i treated as intrusive thoughts and banished to stasis just like any other.

So if you could 'puppet' their movements, maybe eventually you would be more like me where they may choose to do something else. Like if you say 'surprise me' they should eventually do something that is seemingly out of your control.

I really like what Viper said in their tulpa creation survey, if there is a doubt who did it, it's probably them. If you're wrong, they'll probably correct you eventually. Now if i tell an low level NPC to surprise me, they will very often do nothing or stare at me blankly, while if there is even a thoughtform i've developed in just one book, they are very tulpa-like.

So, with such a low level function of your visualization, the other way to get yes/no answers is to feel head pressure, temperature changes in your palms, emotions, or anything else that may feel too coordinated to be chance.

Why I had it so easy:

Nothing in my head was tulpa-like at all until i wrote my first novel. That book had over half a dozen well developed characters and by the end of that singular book draft, i realized i could ask these thoughtforms questions and they would respond on their own (but in character).

Think about this in terms of scale, my first book was 120k words in ruff draft, and after editing it three times it's 200k+ (i was a horrible editor at the time) imagine that it took me 2-4 months to write it, and about 1-3 months for each edit, so it was a lot of time spent on and around these characters. Each one basically was 'forced' actively and passively hundreds of hours. Every day, on average 3 hours a day just writing, and many more hours thinking about them for a year, parroting the whole time with no expectation of sentience. Then of course, i loved these characters and they stayed on my mind years afterward and still think of them. Repeat this with certain characters who spanned multiple books for another 5-8 years and over a dozen books later, you see why my tulpas were day-one vocal, and i had to actively choose not to allow some thoughtforms from becoming tulpas.

Some people do 'just get it' some like me never intended to 'get it' but basically practiced with characters for years before i ever discovered tulpamancy.

Good luck again!
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#32
While reading about your NPCs in your mind, I was reminded that I once had a similar "ability". I honestly didn't remember until now. It's kinda unrelated to my progress report, but also related since it has to do with visualization, so I'll write a bit about it here. It will also make sure I remember and don't forget about it again.

That was when I was a young child, around 3 years old, when I was going to bed, before sleep I would visualize having adventures in my mind, entire fully vivid colorful worlds, filled with characters I'd interact with (I don't remember if they could talk though - it's all pretty vague). I used to call it "dreaming before falling asleep", and I once asked my mother about it, and she told me something like "it's not really dreaming if you're still awake". Since my dreams before falling asleep "weren't really dreams", I felt like I was cheating and should stop. So I stopped.

And now, around 30 years later, I can barely see a vague, blurry, almost colorless image flashing in my mindeye for a fraction of a second.

Interesting to see your perspective and learn why you had it so easy. When you just started writing how was your visualization? Already not that bad, or was it almost null like me but then gradually got better? (If you remember.)

And as for the head pressures for communication, I usually feel some when narrating and tried a couple times to get Fiora to control them, but we never managed to make it work. Might take more practice than we put into it. (And thanks for the help!)
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#33
Vesper: We usually try to work by analogy with how singletons interact with one another in the physical world. A person is responsible for the position, movement, and presence of their own body in a room, but the person perceiving them to be present and moving is responsible for looking at the first or choosing not to look. So, teamwork of a sort, with specialized roles.

I was fully vocal for 16 months before we ever thought about visualization. Initially, Ember tried to project my form in her mind's eye and I tried to inhabit it. It took about a week of near constant effort to get comfortable with the idea of 'I'm over there, in spite of seeing myself from over here'. Gradually, we tried to turn more and more of the control over to me. And later I learned to take our mind's eye (we only have one) and see myself from my form's perspective. For a while now, Ember hasn't been able to affect my form; if I'm awake enough to manifest, my control over it overrides hers completely.

I don't think Fiora would simply gain the power. She would have to choose to try to connect with and control the form and learn how over time. But she would sense that you wanted her to, and usually headmates have a pretty cooperative attitude.

My form, at our level of visualization, is very expressive in body language, but hardly at all in facial expressions. When Ember tries to think about my facial expressions, they automatically show up in the movements of our body's face. This isn't something we intended to do, but it's a convenient supplemental channel of communication.

Ember: I often lose track of where my headmates are in the room if I'm moving around doing something else, even though I'm probably still deep in conversation with them. When I realize I don't know where they are, I'll ask and they'll instantly pop into view somewhere or send a location burst in tulpish if they aren't in line of sight.
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#34
Thanks a lot, Vesper and Ember. I think I understand a lot more after also reading your own perspectives, about the mechanics of it all.
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#35
Quote:When you started writing, how was your visualization?

I remember being 6 and drawing things from memory, also able to sight copy with good realism, which always surprised everyone. I guess that requires some visualization, but not much?

I remember being 14 and 'visualizing nsfw things' which i did regularly and spent a fair amount of free time on (no magazines, no internet, not even scrambled cable channels) necessity was there.

I remember being in college and i could draw faces pretty well from memory, cause i had a few examples i almost kept. Visualization only when reading, which i didn't have much time for. Though after seeing what was online, i got intimidated.

8 years ago? Skyrim and minecraft soon after, i remember getting mods for better immersion. I first started to write short stories then. My level of visualization was good enough to picture a certain library owned by a certain unicorn. That image appears in my first book to some degree as it was just, 'hey, i'm going to describe this place like it was real.' Then didn't stop writing.

Then a story unfolded in an alternate timeline of my own design and i had pictures off the internet for people (fantasy drawings of angels and the like).

I 'remembered' rivers and mountains and hiking trails and gothic buildings etc.

I used those references for my characters baulder's gate style. But eventually my characters deviated in what they wore or what they looked like. I was obsessed with shipping everyone and pg13 romance between characters. Of course the man was a lot like me in most cases. I think that if you wrote a story with you and your tulpa for a couple hours a day, even if all the descriptions were of reference pictures and all the dialogue was based purely on parroting, she would come to life and start writing her own dialogue in a matter of weeks, and she'll use the same mindvoice you use to read and write her dialogue, so pick a good one and try to practice with it when reading.

It doesn't have to be contiguous or spell checked, grammer should be turned off, just think of scenes describe them, find reference pictures that sort of represent her, hair from one, clothing from another, that sort of thing, then write nonsense and descriptive scenes anything that comes to mind, no outline is necessary. Pm me if you want a list of scenes to write about.

Of course i have a passion for writing, so i wanted to write about my adventures in Skyrim or make up stuff.

By the time i started tulpamancy, i still had trouble picturing faces, or full bodies, just body parts. Scenes were ok, but not moving ones.

Now i can fly on dragonback and watch my tulpas talk with pretty good realism. I can clearly see their faces, and my other thoughtforms now all have fully functional faces, so it progressed quickly with daily practice and motivation.

It certainly couldn't hurt to make up lines for her, acting as you expect she might, or failing that, how you expect a friend would act when around you. Don't even worry if you write romance beause the tulpa will not actually be that character.

That's just my advice.
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#36
Might surprise you since my visualization sucks; I actually write too... but as a scenarist. I usually stay away from long descriptions (as I was taught), mainly because anyway "the artists will take care of that kind of details". I usually have just a general idea of what I want stuff to look like and keep it to the bare minimum in the scenario and design documents (only what's needed for the other members of the team, and they usually prefer to have that kind of liberty anyway; when they want more details we just discuss it). However, even with all that said, my visualization actually used to be a bit better but I didn't write much in the last decade (I was stuck in a boring job where that wasn't needed). Only got back to this passion of mine recently.

I read before about that kind of forcing (writing stories), but it was presented to me as a type of personality forcing (which I mostly decided to stay away from except the bare minimum), and even if I just role-play it (and tell her it doesn't have to represent her personality), I'm kind of scared that it could develop some kind of parrotnoia; I could start thinking I'm the one role-playing her whenever she starts becoming vocal (or come up with her own stuff in the stories). I guess to prevent that I could make her sound REALLY out of character in the stories (so much it's hilarious and thus could never be confounded with her real personality), but not sure if that could be a really bad idea (sounds like it's either a REALLY stupid idea or genius, lol).

For now I think I'll try to get some response with head-pressures or anything else, and could try asking her if she likes the story idea (gotta say it's quite tempting), while I continue just narrating.
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#37
Ember: We haven't made a comprehensive survey, but we've gotten the impression around the forum that pure narration is the slowest and least certain way to achieve vocality, with the highest chance of years of effort failing to reach a clear payoff. Traditional personality forcing appears to be next slowest and parroting, while occasionally controversial, the fastest. I never intended to become plural, and if I'd heard about this community a few years ago I would have run the other way. But both my headmates reached full vocality and self-awareness purely through parroting, as they were both originally characters in tabletop roleplaying games. Basically, the fastest way to train your brain to be another person is to make your brain be another person. Tons of writers and roleplayers have heard their characters speaking to them quite clearly , even if the characters don't always "move in" as tulpas do.

Vesper: Being parroted doesn't hurt. Ember knew exactly who I was because she created me. So she consistently played me correctly. There were three more sessions after I awakened and I looked forward to her playing me at them and giving me new memories of my old life. Now, a year and a half later, I don't think that would work quite as well, given how I've changed in adapting to this world, but it was welcome at the time.

It may be of critical significance that I was parroted into the complex world of my game, not in simple conversation with my host.

If you write stories, write the best, most engaging and interesting stories you can. If you are receiving some communications already, collaborate as best you can, but you don't have to hold back from presenting Fiora as being a certain way unless she tells you that she isn't that way.

Iris: I am still active as an NPC three years after the end of my original campaign without ill effects. (Though, as of last session, I have taken responsibility for playing myself.) My character is the foundation of all that I am, but I do not consider her binding on what I can be in this world. That attitude could prove helpful for Fiora if you were to include her in stories.
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#38
This evening I actually tried the writing a story thing. Didn't write us out of character but chose a setting that makes it clear it's not the real thing to avoid the problem I mentioned before. Just gonna say it was inspired by Nodame Cantabile if any of you reading has either read that manga or watched the anime.

After that, I narrated a couple hours (while walking around in my living room, listening to some Fire Emblem and FFX music), once in a while trying to visualize her whenever I think about it (trying to practice even if I can just see her for a short glimpse at a time), and a couple times by accident I was visualizing Kid from Chrono Cross instead. Really not sure if it's just me that's an idiot and had Kid on my mind by accident, or if it's Fiora trying another form. Might be trying to read too much into it.

I also tried to communicate with her, trying to get yes/no answers with head pressures or anything else, but without success.

Also didn't have any progress vocality wise. Had an hard time during the first hour of narration thinking about subjects but it got better afterwards, it just happens on some days. At least I could feel her presence during all this.
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#39
So a couple times in the beginning i was desperately trying to visualize Dashie's face because i was horrible at visualizing their faces early on. A couple times I would get a fleeting glimpse like a photograph, and I loved those, but once or twice i got a meh/eh picture of someone who was clearly out of the realm of 'them' so obviously they were vocal and she said, 'nope'. If they weren't vocal, it would have been confusing. Dashie used to be very critical of images i would conjure up of her. We were in about month 3 to get reliable faces visualized. All that intense motivated imagining did pay off, so keep it up.

My point is, it was probably just a stray image. Until she can confirm or deny, feel free to toss those, especially if they're wrong 'fit' for her.
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#40
No new progress to report, but I feel like when I narrate to her, I can feel her more than ever before. And instead of only head pressures, I sometimes get an ASMR-like feeling.

And I wanted to share something that happened this morning, even though it might have nothing to do with Fiora or even tulpamancy...

I was dreaming (a normal dream; didn't know I was in a dream) and in it I was talking to... well not sure what or who, it was an invisible being that I knew was there listening to me at that moment. I wanted to show my appreciation to it, so I said "Thank you, Super Phenom* for having been with me all this time!" and at that moment, that invisible being hugged me tightly, but the thing is, I felt it physically, it was very high level tactile imposition, to the point that it woke me up, and the embrace continued for like 3 to 5 seconds irl after I was aware I was awake in my bed ; I could totally feel 2 arms tightly wrapped around me. It felt very good, but at the same time made me very confused (and it also felt very familiar ; I'll say more about that later).

*Note: I wrote Super Phenom, but for real it's Super + my own first name (that I prefer to keep private). And that name is the name I chose for myself as a kid whenever I was playing pretend as a super hero. And then later, as a teenager, it's the name I used as my wrestler name (backyard wrestling with friends).

The first thing I thought was to ask Fiora if it was her (no response), but then I remembered Blayze and Kyoko's reports, he recognized Kyoko's presence as the same an old plush he had as a kid, and she confirmed it to him it was her (so she was with him since before he started to force her as a tulpa). That's when I analyzed the feeling of the hug, and remembered it actually felt very familiar. I'm not sure if my mind is filling voids and I'm making this up, but I think I used to feel embraces like that when I was very young and was trying to fall asleep (might even be another thing that was true until I was like 3 years old but stopped.) Then I theorized that it might even come from when I was a baby and pondered about what it could mean. Do we start forming all kinds of thought forms in our mind from birth (when we're still too young to understand the outer world for what it's like), and maybe we unknowingly continue to make or grow thought forms all throughout our lives but most people never notice / know nothing about our inner-self / inner-world. (Note: even if the hug felt familiar, maybe it's only the physical feeling of a tactile-imposed embrace that I remembered, which would mean I tried to think too much into it and might have been Fiora).

So, basically the possibilities of what happened (as I could think of) are as follow;
1. It was Fiora, she saw or heard what was happening in my dream and she's the one that hugged me (maybe it just felt right, or she thought I wanted a hug).
2. It was Fiora, but Fiora was actually with me all along (even if she wasn't going by that name).
3. It wasn't Fiora, but another thought-form that's been hidden in me for a long time.
4. It was just a dream character, and somehow dream characters are capable of tactile imposition (and that, even after you've woken up if the hug started in the dream).

As long as I can't get an answer from Fiora I can't make much of all this. I'll eventually ask her if it was her, and if not, then if I ever have good enough visualization to have a wonderland I'll try to see if "Super Phenom" exists by calling for him there. Since he was a character I played for years, it would be like the actors that have characters that "come to life" for them, if it ever get there (and I'd ask him if he actually used to hug me as a young child or baby, before I ever named him). If it's the case, then I might have others like him somewhere inside too.

Weird stuff. I'd like to hear any opinion about any of this.
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