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[split] Complaints
#11
(09-25-2013, 05:01 PM)Sands Wrote: Bad mods, idiots are let to be idiots and you're the one getting punished if you make them cry by trying to set them straight, idiocy in general, roleplaying, badges, other stuff where you treat your tuppers as some kind of trophies, no professionalism, treating own opinions as facts, people not being able to take critique (both mods and members), hugboxing, opinions and freedom of speech not allowed because it might make someone cry...
I really should give you a warning for this (being "off topic") - but you yourself said "spend a month as a mod' without being able to give anyone a warning". Too late now to complain when I am following your advice.

So, have a 0% Warning (i.e. no warning at all). Please try to be a little more polite. Your posts are well intentioned, but I really think people are not getting your message due to the form it is presented in.

Also,
banning someone is something staff strongly prefer to avoid unless it is some sort of spambot. It would be much preferable if people could be persuaded to keep their discussions polite. The point being, we do need different opinions here, but we also need people to treat each other with respect (here) too.

Shui, with deepest and most sincere respect, please try to be slightly more tolerant. Sometimes people speak from passion and make generalizations that weren't meant to offend (but do). I think some of the younger members (including myself) overreach themselves when they didn't intend to cause offense.

As to everyone else, I suppose I will have to go through the posts and send them their hugboxes individually by PM. Later - I'm dead tired and have work in 4 hours so need some sleep.

Be well,
Nobillis (a secretary)

Edit (Kevin): Posts have been moved to new thread. Irrelevant sections struck.
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#12
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Should warn me for being off-topic when someone else asked a question and I answered it? Really? Sure is .info in here. Why not split the topic if you really think it's being so off-topic now? It's a valid topic on its own. Oh right wait no, too much effort for the mods, better to just warn. .info!

Following my advice of not giving actual stupid percentage warnings is good. Talking to the people about what is wrong is good. But, you still gave me a "warning" without much else to go with it, so it's pretty useless and still basically leftovers of the stupid warning system. Luckily it's not actually going to fuck anyone over, though, but it's not really helping any more than actual warnings.

If the only reason you think anyone should be warned here is for off-topic and not actually because ohno a mod's feelings got hurt :<<< like the hugbox usually goes, at least split the topic. Then it's no longer off-topic, no posts about "warnings" would have to be made and everyone could go on with their life.

Sincerely,
signing posts on forums where my name is right there for everyone to read, just look left (unemployed)
The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
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#13
I was planning on splitting this yesterday, but I had hoped it would've stopped at Sands' previous response. Seeing as it hasn't, I've split this topic. I request that you keep the responses civil, now.

(09-25-2013, 11:03 AM)Kiahdaj Wrote: I didn't post a thread every time there was something I wasn't 100% sure on. I read around. I used the search function--something it seems a lot of the members these days don't know how to do.

You're more than welcome to reiterate (was it you that provided ways to fix this issue?) solutions to help make new members use the search function, whether it be in this thread or in Staff Contact.

(09-25-2013, 05:01 PM)Sands Wrote: Bad mods, idiots are let to be idiots and you're the one getting punished if you make them cry by trying to set them straight, idiocy in general, roleplaying, badges, other stuff where you treat your tuppers as some kind of trophies, no professionalism, treating own opinions as facts, people not being able to take critique (both mods and members), hugboxing,

Idiocy now, that's a god given right and frankly extremely subjective. We all have our moments, but there is a fine line between calling someone out on it and being insulting. Roleplaying... we've discussed this in threads before. The issue with it is determining whether someone actually is roleplaying or just imaginative/sharing too many details.

(09-25-2013, 05:01 PM)Sands Wrote: opinions and freedom of speech not allowed because it might make someone cry...

The country that coined the term "freedom of speech" has its own limitations on them. You can't run into a crowd room and scream bomb; you can't waltz into a forum in stink it up. It isn't your duty to make members better people - it's their parents. Calling members "faggot" and the likes is just disrespectful, hostile, and doesn't teach them a lesson other than to never post what they did again.

Quote:If I did that to you face and was your boss, well, if you're not used to it, it's not going to be pretty. And it is going to happen at some point, the world won't be your hugbox.

I don't know what kind of boss would call his workers that. I've been chewed out before, yeah, it sucks, you learn not to screw up. The reason behind it is that he is paying me to do something and I am obligated to do so. I see what you're grabbing at, but it just isn't there. When I'm chewed out, it's because I did something wrong, whereas on a forum the poster might not necessarily feel that they did wrong.

The reality of this argument is that it comes down to your perspective of how people should act and mine. I respect what you're trying to do, but I earnestly think there's better ways of going about it.

(09-25-2013, 05:01 PM)Sands Wrote: A lot of that is a fault of the IRC channel. All kinds of stupid shit is allowed in there and mods do nothing to stop it. That stupidity then bleeds here, newbies thinking that's what is allowed and even required. And many of the forums mods are IRC mods treating and modding the forums like their precious IRC hugbox. Meaning, problems, they don't step up where they need to and instead come and punish you for breaking their hugbox rules.

I won't comment on the IRC. I very rarely participate there. I know I've asked you before Sands, but to anyone else, if someone can provide logs of "hugboxing" or anything else you don't like about the IRC channel I will look them over and pass them on.

Mind, I'm not asking for logs as a way to prove "hugboxing" occurs, I'm asking so I can get a better idea of what it is.

(09-25-2013, 06:48 PM)Sands Wrote: In my humble opinion, both you and the mods are wrong. Answering someone's question that has been answered multiple times before only teaches them to be lazy and enables their stupid behavior to continue. They won't be asked to challenge themselves and will never get anywhere unless they will. Answering their questions easily will in fact hurt them in the long run. This community doesn't need people who can't use the search button.

Again, it's good intentions, but it's... silly, in my opinion, to teach someone that will only show up once and never again.

But as I said to Kiahdaj, if you could propose a feasible solution to the search issue I'd love to hear it.
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#14
(09-27-2013, 02:48 AM)Derp Wrote: But as I said to Kiahdaj, if you could propose a feasible solution to the search issue I'd love to hear it.

Kevin says: I believe that there is a "merge post" function of some kind? It occurs to me (and my tulpas - we spend the day discussing it) that if a post comes in that has not bothered to search - that it be merged with the appropriate thread already dealing with the subject, and the new poster informed as such.

(09-26-2013, 07:47 PM)Sands Wrote: If the only reason you think anyone should be warned here is for off-topic and not actually because ohno a mod's feelings got hurt :<<< like the hugbox usually goes, at least split the topic. Then it's no longer off-topic, no posts about "warnings" would have to be made and everyone could go on with their life.

Sincerely,
signing posts on forums where my name is right there for everyone to read, just look left (unemployed)

Kevin says: Split the topic is exactly what Nobillis wanted to do, but was not yet skilled in the admin' system enough to do so. Also, it didn't help that I'd passed out from exhaustion. I see that she's going to need more support until she gets "the hang of things". Apparently, you did not read the "which is no warning at all" (nor, apparently, recognize intended humor). Very well, I'll see to it that at the very least the Watchdogs assist with all posts (as I can't guarantee that I can stay awake when exhausted). Ultimately I am responsible for all my tulpas do, even if I don't keep them under an iron grasp. Nobillis will learn. I find her learning speed phenomenal, something like I was when young, but she has always admitted that she 'derps' from time to time. In some places she's far more respected then I am, so I have confidence that she'll become proficient here too.

The reason for the signing of posts is that myself and the 4 other tulpas also sometimes use this account. Without a signature how would you know who posted? And leaving no signature has previously caused it's own confusions what with kerin dropping the account into Nobillis' care on short notice. Having a signature seemed an appropriate, and in business is a required, response. You request professionalism, but when a standard Australian business practice is utilized you also ridicule it - that sends a mixed message, if you were not aware thereof. Edit: Touche - Nobillis tells me that was a jape and I was supposed to laugh at it and understand, which I clearly did not. Seems she is better at this then I knew.

Frankly Sands you are respected in the community as someone who is trying to contribute, and whom provides pretty good (if acerbic) advice. I would say the mod's are not out to stifle you and do indeed hold you in some respect.
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#15
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Tons of things I should reply to and to avoid from turning this into a quote train, I'll just try to sum things up quickly. Good job actually splitting this instead of deleting everything like what usually gets done here.

For the Q&A stuff, please look here, some excellent suggestions.

Now, sure idiocy is subjective. However, seeing how many people agree that there's plenty of idiocy going on, you totally should be taking a closer look at that. If I had a list of posts I thought were stupid as hell, I'd link them to you in a heartbeat to show you exactly what I mean. Afraid I don't have such a list and I'm lazy right now, so I'm not planning on finding silly posts for you, whoops sorry. Right now you just gotta think what kinds of posts you've thought have been full of stupidity and kinda reflect on that, I guess.

I'm not even murkan and me and my country's still pretty big on this freedom of speech thing. And equality and all that jazz. We tend to laugh at murka's shitty excuse for freedom of speech. I don't really see how you bringing the USA into this thing did anything, Derp. Freedom of speech happens in other countries too. And hey, if you don't know why someone calls you a faggot and want to know, you can always ask. It could be obvious why you call someone a faggot in your eyes, but we as human beings are able to talk. If you don't know, ask. Happy to tell you why exactly I think you're a faggot, though maybe people usually want those in PMs. Except you're not allowed to do that either because you get warned for telling someone why they're a faggot in PMs, too.

If you think no boss is ever going to call his workers with bad names, you're just, well, wrong. Calling others with names happens in real life and work place bullying is a thing, because even adults can be as cruel as kids. It doesn't even have to be your boss doing that, it could be other people working with you or maybe a potential new boss you're showing your work. And because some bosses are bad at choosing their employees, you might be able to sell yourself really well in an interview saying you can do things you think you can do but can't, because no one ever told you you actually suck. In that case, the boss is going to be hella mad and will really chew you out once he notices. Sure, maybe it's the boss' fault, but you're the one getting blamed. Tough luck if you can't take it. Here, again, it's safe to learn to handle critique as you can just take a breather and come back if it's too bad. It helps so much.


Also, Kevin and Nobillis, it's common forum netiquette to not sign your own posts. Doing it is breaking those unwritten rules and it is extremely annoying. Hell, some forums even have it as a bannable offense because it's so annoying. When Nobillis is talking, no need to sign anything because it's her account. When it's someone else, sure, go ahead. It actually makes sense then, but if the name is identical with your nick, no need. Honestly in you case, I think it would've been better to make a new account for Nobillis and leave the old one to rot if you didn't want to use it anymore. Changing names will affect all your posts and you can end up looking pretty weird, so why not just make a new one. I don't really see a reason why not, everyone understands why a tupper might have a young account on this site, I hope.

In the future, I suggest you ask another mod who knows the forums better as to how you can do the technical parts of modding.

(09-27-2013, 07:41 AM)Nobillis Wrote: I would say the mod's are not out to stifle you and do indeed hold you in some respect.

I've heard otherwise.
The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
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#16
It appears I was a bit too ambiguous to what I was referring to. I'll try my best to keep this concise, as you've do so.

Quote:there is a fine line between calling someone out on it and being insulting.

This is what I'm more concerned about, not whether idiocy is occurring or not.

Quote:I don't really see how you bringing the USA into this thing did anything, Derp.

It wasn't intended to; I'm mildly surprised you expanded upon it. The point was to provide a lead in to the argument that free speech doesn't necessarily equate to saying whatever you'd like.

Quote:It could be obvious why you call someone a faggot in your eyes, but we as human beings are able to talk. If you don't know, ask. Happy to tell you why exactly I think you're a faggot, though maybe people usually want those in PMs.

To clarify, I'm not arguing for you to stop using this term for my sake - personally I'd love to hear what makes me one. It's that other members take much more offensive to the term and as a result you've gotten warnings from it.

What I'm trying to get across to you is that you don't need to reinforce your critiques with negative comments. I don't want all hugs and kisses - critique is necessary, as with blatancy. But disrespect - no, that's not good.

Quote:If you think no boss is ever going to call his workers with bad names, you're just, well, wrong.

No, I don't think a boss would call his worker a faggot, in particular. But insult his worker? Yes, I've certainly been insulted when I've worked.

Quote:Tough luck if you can't take it. Here, again, it's safe to learn to handle critique as you can just take a breather and come back if it's too bad. It helps so much.

The thing is - it shouldn't get that bad. Heated arguments are one thing, but if it were to get to the point that you need to take a breather it probably is flaming. And again, I respect that you're trying to improve people, but again I truly think there are better ways to go about it. Make yourself an example, not impose your expectations.

You can probably shoot holes right through this; I don't have the time right now to make any argument concrete. Enjoy.
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#17
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(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: This is what I'm more concerned about, not whether idiocy is occurring or not.

Fine line? Sure. But ultimately it's decided by how the perceived insulter meant their words. If you're unsure, again, ask. If you think their reasonings were missing, I'm sure they can give them to you. I'd say that in my eyes, the highest form of respect is when you can be honest with someone and really tell them what's wrong instead of kissing their ass.

(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: It wasn't intended to; I'm mildly surprised you expanded upon it. The point was to provide a lead in to the argument that free speech doesn't necessarily equate to saying whatever you'd like.

Many people see America's excuse for "freedom of speech" pretty ridiculous, so that's why. Does it say you can say absolutely everything? Well, if you're threatening others, then you gotta be willing to suffer the consequences, if they happen. But what is freedom of speech if not being able to at least say your opinions? I could see why someone would freak out if one of us were to threaten to take down this site or found dox of one of the members and said they were going to kill them. Calling someone a faggot or something like that is far from it.

(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: To clarify, I'm not arguing for you to stop using this term for my sake - personally I'd love to hear what makes me one. It's that other members take much more offensive to the term and as a result you've gotten warnings from it.

And I'm not exactly trying to argue for using the word faggot. You're free to change it with any insult you want to, I just tend to call people faggots so I decided to use that. Maybe it wasn't clear and sorry about that.

Trust me, the word faggot isn't always even in the things I get warned for. I get warned when people cry, faggot or not. Also ban threats.

(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: What I'm trying to get across to you is that you don't need to reinforce your critiques with negative comments. I don't want all hugs and kisses - critique is necessary, as with blatancy. But disrespect - no, that's not good.

And sometimes the critique I (and well many other as well I guess) give is all proper and such. But when the people who aren't used to it think it's an insult when you say there's a problem with something they do, they throw a bitchfit and you get warned anyways. And they won't change, because they are allowed to act that way and will never get in trouble for it, as anyone calling them out on their bullshit will be silenced. And do you think anyone wants to try to tell the people who don't listen anything nicely anymore?

(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: No, I don't think a boss would call his worker a faggot, in particular. But insult his worker? Yes, I've certainly been insulted when I've worked.

I did say you can replace the faggot with something else. Just, if I was a boss, I'd be calling the person a faggot.

(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: The thing is - it shouldn't get that bad. Heated arguments are one thing, but if it were to get to the point that you need to take a breather it probably is flaming.

Welcome to the art critique world full of entitled little shits who think they can do no wrong. Every time they write a HOW DARE YOU SAY I SUCK as a response to a normal, non-insulting critique, it means they should've taken a breather. And grown a thicker skin. This is what it all is about, too thin skin. To the normal person, critique is good and they can take it. But the people with thin skins can't handle it at all.

It happens, no matter if it's about art or not. They're the younger people who have never had to deal with critique and have always been praised and treated as super special unique snowflakes able to do no wrong. And there are plenty of people like that in every community, especially here.

(09-27-2013, 09:51 PM)Derp Wrote: Make yourself an example, not impose your expectations.

Not until the mods - both on the forums and IRC - do the same. Right now pro-hugbox has to be balanced with anti-hugbox. It could be different, but the mods refuse to change.

Do keep in mind we tell others when they are looking stupid not only to make this community even look somewhat professional again, but it's also for the people acting stupid. One of those people who threw a huge bitchfit in the past? Later on made a post about how no one talked with him or his tuppers. Well no shit, considering he acted like an annoying little shit and a roleplayer, whether he really was or not. Things would've been different if he just had listened, but now he was a person others avoided because of his behavior. And in this community, once you lose the trust of the people, you're pretty much out of luck. Have fun finding another community where you tuppers can actually speak and be honest about their origins.
The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
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#18
(09-28-2013, 11:10 AM)Sands Wrote: Fine line? Sure. But ultimately it's decided by how the perceived insulter meant their words. If you're unsure, again, ask. If you think their reasonings were missing, I'm sure they can give them to you. I'd say that in my eyes, the highest form of respect is when you can be honest with someone and really tell them what's wrong instead of kissing their ass.

Essentially talk with the insulter before jumping to conclusions. I can do that.

(09-28-2013, 11:10 AM)Sands Wrote: Trust me, the word faggot isn't always even in the things I get warned for. I get warned when people cry, faggot or not.

I'm looking through a few of them, I'll send you a message on them in a bit. For a future reference if you feel that you've been warned unjustly you can always contact another moderator for a second opinion, assuming you haven't done this before.

(09-28-2013, 11:10 AM)Sands Wrote: Welcome to the art critique world full of entitled little shits who think they can do no wrong. Every time they write a HOW DARE YOU SAY I SUCK as a response to a normal, non-insulting critique, it means they should've taken a breather. And grown a thicker skin. This is what it all is about, too thin skin. To the normal person, critique is good and they can take it. But the people with thin skins can't handle it at all.

It happens, no matter if it's about art or not. They're the younger people who have never had to deal with critique and have always been praised and treated as super special unique snowflakes able to do no wrong. And there are plenty of people like that in every community, especially here.

Heh, yeah, I've seen this on deviantart. I'm all for proposing a "maturity rule" or something similar to help prevent this.

(09-28-2013, 11:10 AM)Sands Wrote: Do keep in mind we tell others when they are looking stupid not only to make this community even look somewhat professional again, but it's also for the people acting stupid. One of those people who threw a huge bitchfit in the past? Later on made a post about how no one talked with him or his tuppers. Well no shit, considering he acted like an annoying little shit and a roleplayer, whether he really was or not. Things would've been different if he just had listened, but now he was a person others avoided because of his behavior. And in this community, once you lose the trust of the people, you're pretty much out of luck. Have fun finding another community where you tuppers can actually speak and be honest about their origins.

Yeah, I know who you're talking about, though it isn't my place to comment on the user's actions. Commenting on the issues though, progress reports are seemingly exempt from most of the rules, such as NSFW content or professionalism. That shouldn't be.

I'll see what I can do.
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#19
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(09-28-2013, 08:32 PM)Derp Wrote: Essentially talk with the insulter before jumping to conclusions. I can do that.

Please do; the mods here never, ever talk with the ones they are warning, when that's what they should be doing the most.

(09-28-2013, 08:32 PM)Derp Wrote: I'm looking through a few of them, I'll send you a message on them in a bit. For a future reference if you feel that you've been warned unjustly you can always contact another moderator for a second opinion, assuming you haven't done this before.

I usually have sent a message when I've thought the warning wasn't just, but in the past, Chupi basically was the only mod around and he'd just go "deal with it". Even when he agreed with the warning being unjust, I don't think they ever were removed.

Pleasure doing work with you.
The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
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