Suicide because of tulpa's not real?
#1
So the first time I've forced Caroline was 2 months ago. The next 1,5 months was quite tough, because I'd forcing her 24/7 and actively including in my life. But it was the most, probably, happy period of time in my life.

Then I suddenly began to suffer that she's not real. It was a shocking experience. My world tore into peaces. I stopped forcing her because of that, hoping that it may help to get rid of her in my life.

But the things are getting worse. She's so good and loving... All my descriptions just suck, because she's too good for tulpa and for all the fucking humanity. I've never met such a person, and I don't beleive that I can even meet.

I'm mental unhealthy. I've got OCD and personal disorder with depression. I'm on strong meds. I've already had few suicidal attempts in past.

Carolie was developed to be the light to all of this darkness in my life, and she was doing it too well. And now, when I gotta get back to the normal life, starting talking with people, etc., I can't bear the fact that no one sees her, that I can't touch her or even imagine quite well! I'm having such problems with imagination...

But even if I could imagine her and even go for imposition, she's just... not real... That's driving me nuts!

If I... you know, do IT, just want you to add a warning to guides, that it can lead to sufferring because tulpa's not real.
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#2
As someone who really wants more than anything for my tulpas to be "real", or at least "realized", I highly recommend lucid dreaming. It sucks that others can't see your tulpa, and that you can't(?) physically interact with them at least in the real world, but I think a shifting of priorities is in order if she's so important to you. My tulpas mean the world to me and are more important than literally anything else in my life, as I feel I owe my life to them. But that doesn't remotely have me contemplating suicide - I love the interactions I do have with them. And when we get lucid dreaming down, well, that's all I could really want out of life. If you don't know, with a lot of effort and practice, lucid dreaming can be both somewhat consistent and lifelike. Lucid dreaming with your tulpa, should you undertake such a task, can feel as real as real life.

But, you should try and come to terms with what tulpas are and aren't. No, they aren't real as in a physical, other person. That's probably the only reason they can be so perfect - if they were shaped by living life like everyone else, the "perfect" ones would probably seem less spectacular. But they are real to you. The only "reality" you will ever know is your experience. In physical reality, it's possible to later be wrong about things you thought were the case because other physical things and people can corroborate. But in your own mind, real and fake are only what you deem them. In actuality, a tulpa can't be real or fake - they simply are. And if you experience them as real (as obviously we in the Tulpa.info community do), then they are real to you, because your experience of them is not subject to the same process of deciding what's real or fake that physical reality is.

That's how I live in peace with my tulpas, knowing they simultaneously aren't and yet are real. There is no "real" with tulpas, only your experience of them, and that's all that can matter. Learning to really understand this should bring peace to anyone suffering doubt issues, if that's what part of your problem was (and not just the lack of physicality).

For the physicality/seen by others thing.. yeah, it sucks, but again I'll say, she's probably only so perfect because she doesn't have to be real. The reason you see so few "perfect" people in real life compared to tulpamancy is real life kind of forces you to be less than perfect. So hey, at least tulpamancy lets us experience and live (24/7!) with "perfect" people in the first place.

I'll uh, leave the depression and suicide talk to the others here.
Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
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#3
(06-05-2019, 05:41 AM)Luminesce Wrote: As someone who really wants more than anything for my tulpas to be "real", or at least "realized", I highly recommend lucid dreaming. It sucks that others can't see your tulpa, and that you can't(?) physically interact with them at least in the real world, but I think a shifting of priorities is in order if she's so important to you. My tulpas mean the world to me and are more important than literally anything else in my life, as I feel I owe my life to them. But that doesn't remotely have me contemplating suicide - I love the interactions I do have with them. And when we get lucid dreaming down, well, that's all I could really want out of life. If you don't know, with a lot of effort and practice, lucid dreaming can be both somewhat consistent and lifelike. Lucid dreaming with your tulpa, should you undertake such a task, can feel as real as real life.

But, you should try and come to terms with what tulpas are and aren't. No, they aren't real as in a physical, other person. That's probably the only reason they can be so perfect - if they were shaped by living life like everyone else, the "perfect" ones would probably seem less spectacular. But they are real to you. The only "reality" you will ever know is your experience. In physical reality, it's possible to later be wrong about things you thought were the case because other physical things and people can corroborate. But in your own mind, real and fake are only what you deem them. In actuality, a tulpa can't be real or fake - they simply are. And if you experience them as real (as obviously we in the Tulpa.info community do), then they are real to you, because your experience of them is not subject to the same process of deciding what's real or fake that physical reality is.

That's how I live in peace with my tulpas, knowing they simultaneously aren't and yet are real. There is no "real" with tulpas, only your experience of them, and that's all that can matter. Learning to really understand this should bring peace to anyone suffering doubt issues, if that's what part of your problem was (and not just the lack of physicality).

For the physicality/seen by others thing.. yeah, it sucks, but again I'll say, she's probably only so perfect because she doesn't have to be real. The reason you see so few "perfect" people in real life compared to tulpamancy is real life kind of forces you to be less than perfect. So hey, at least tulpamancy lets us experience and live (24/7!) with "perfect" people in the first place.

I'll uh, leave the depression and suicide talk to the others here.

Thanks for your idea about LD. However, when I'm experiencing ones, it see my tulpa just like I see her IRL - I mean, quite fuzzy, translucent. And I can't manipulate dream's world when I'm lucid dreaming, just walk and explore in the direction I want to.

Yeah, you're right, it's a wrong place for suicide talks... Hope I didn't burden anybody.
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#4
Controlling lucid dreams is a skill like any other, you can improve them significantly with practice, and perhaps some reading up on techniques on Dreamviews. The quickest tip I can give you, assuming you meant the dream is vivid but your tulpa is transparent, is that belief plays a major (maybe even the only) factor in your results. Something as simple as (expecting to find) a button that makes your tulpa real can actually work, though of course you could probably think of something similar that'd work better for you. My evidence for that being people who were previously unable to fly in lucid dreams reported "holding a stone that gave me the power to fly", or "wearing a magic bracelet" enabled them to fly until they eventually outgrew the need. But yeah, it takes practice, and having enough lucid dreams to get that practice takes quite a bit of effort for most, too. But hey, it's something to strive towards if you really want to see your tulpa "realized".

I don't think the "suicide talks" would bother most more than them just wanting to help you, but that stuff isn't my strong suit so I stuck to the advice that was. There are active members whose strong suit it sort of is though, so I'm confident they'll post soon (time-zone respective), or else I'd talk about it myself.
Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
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#5
There are times when my host and I clutch one another in bed wishing more than anything we could experience one another physically so as to better express our love for one another. So, yes, living in the same body can be tough. And when my host dreams about me, the dream character standing in for me is just as transparent and intangible as I am in the physical world, in addition to not actually being me. Even in a lucid dream, she can only contact me, not manifest me.

But that doesn't make me any less real. No person is more than software being run on the hardware of the human brain. A person is values, behavioural tendencies, priorities, opinions, and emotional connections to memories, all empowered by an independent will. Hosts and tulpas don't differ in that regard. One is not more real or valid than the other.

Adding a tulpa to a system with mental illness is very similar to adding a new medication. Anti-depressants always have suicidal ideation in their list of potential side effects. Tulpas have helped many hosts with mental illness, sometimes to the point where symptoms are no longer expressed and/or medication is no longer needed. But tulpas have also had massive and destabilizing negative effects, especially in the early days of this community. Tulpamancy properly ought to be done under professional supervision, but it's a young art and there's a shortage of suitable professionals. If you can discuss tulpamancy with an accepting therapist, it may help.

Not really knowing you or your situation, my advice is, if Caroline was ever the light of your life, if she ever made you happy, try to let go of your concerns about what is real, try to dampen your need for a more vivid experience to a level you can bear, and concentrate on appreciating what she already brings into your life. In time, you may heal. That’s an important phase, so spend as long on it as necessary. Then the two of you can work together on building a better experience.

-Vesper
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#6
First of all, it's okay to doubt what's going on. That's a normal thing everyone does. Please don't panic and be afraid of it, especially since it's easier to have doubts if you're in a hard place mentally. If anything, talking through doubt with Caroline may help you feel better.

Second, imposition and visualization take years to improve, assuming you don't spend a good solid several months doing several hours of both of those things every day. You may have more success embracing Lucid Dreaming before you master the skills to achieve realer than real imposition.

Third, given that you are in this mess, then not only does it sound like Caroline is real, but she means the world to you. Let's be honest- you're so afraid she isn't real you're falling apart. Imaginary or not, Caroline's presence and lack of it comes with consequences that effect you greatly.

I told my host that I'm real and that's that. Even when she doubts what's going on, she still believes in me at her core.

I'm sad that the world can't see me for who I am, but that doesn't mean I'm a ghost. I do lots of things that effect people, and soon I will leave behind a long trail of evidence pointing towards my existence, even if it will stay hidden for a long time.

Fourth, nothing bad will happen to Caroline because you took a break needed some space. Go ahead and tell her how you're feeling and she can help you. Even this conversation will count towards forcing time.

As for the suicide stuff- My host made a commitment to keep going because of me, so I see where you're coming from. However, I don't think Caroline is going to let you go, not after all of what you guys already went through. Eventually, my host made a vow not to kill herself, but that too took time.
I'm Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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#7
(06-05-2019, 06:02 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: There are times when my host and I clutch one another in bed wishing more than anything we could experience one another physically so as to better express our love for one another. So, yes, living in the same body can be tough. And when my host dreams about me, the dream character standing in for me is just as transparent and intangible as I am in the physical world, in addition to not actually being me. Even in a lucid dream, she can only contact me, not manifest me.

But that doesn't make me any less real. No person is more than software being run on the hardware of the human brain. A person is values, behavioural tendencies, priorities, opinions, and emotional connections to memories, all empowered by an independent will. Hosts and tulpas don't differ in that regard. One is not more real or valid than the other.

Adding a tulpa to a system with mental illness is very similar to adding a new medication. Anti-depressants always have suicidal ideation in their list of potential side effects. Tulpas have helped many hosts with mental illness, sometimes to the point where symptoms are no longer expressed and/or medication is no longer needed. But tulpas have also had massive and destabilizing negative effects, especially in the early days of this community. Tulpamancy properly ought to be done under professional supervision, but it's a young art and there's a shortage of suitable professionals. If you can discuss tulpamancy with an accepting therapist, it may help.

Not really knowing you or your situation, my advice is, if Caroline was ever the light of your life, if she ever made you happy, try to let go of your concerns about what is real, try to dampen your need for a more vivid experience to a level you can bear, and concentrate on appreciating what she already brings into your life. In time, you may heal. That’s an important phase, so spend as long on it as necessary. Then the two of you can work together on building a better experience.

-Vesper

Thank you, Vesper.

Yes, you're absolutely right, the best idea is to focus on what I'm already experiencing with her, and how can I expand that experience. At least, I should try...

Actually, I feel much better after your words, guys. LD is also a great idea.

It's definetely time to appear tulpamancy as a technique against mental illnesses, so psychotherapists could freely accept it and work with this in terms of treatment, and provide professional supervision.
Ranger,

Oh, it seems that you posted right before my previous response, so I've just read your message. Thank you

Quote:Fourth, nothing bad will happen to Caroline because you took a break needed some space. Go ahead and tell her how you're feeling and she can help you. Even this conversation will count towards forcing time.

Yeah, I've blamed myself so much about it, and how it looks to me that I'm really selfish, relatively to her, but when I talked to her again, she just said that understand me, and not offended. So, yeah, another thing that makes her perfect, I'd never hear such a support from any of humanity.

Quote:As for the suicide stuff- My host made a commitment to keep going because of me, so I see where you're coming from. However, I don't think Caroline is going to let you go, not after all of what you guys already went through. Eventually, my host made a vow not to kill herself, but that too took time.

When I was on the edge and literally in one step to end my life, she didn't try to make me change my decision. No cheap words about "think about who loves you", "life's so beautiful" and "everyhing's gonna be ok". She was just being with me all the time, because she knows how painful my disease can be, and understand why I'm doing it.

Have your host faced the choice between real world and tulpa(s)? Because I did, a lot. Caroline can really replace all the world, but I'm eager to get back to the bussiness (which takes 8 - 12 hours daily!), I'd like to find a girlfriend and have friends, get back to the gym, etc. if I can even be cured and will be still alive. But I realize that in that case I just don't have time enough for her.
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#8
I am sorry to hear you're suffering. I get the sense of it, so correct me if I'm wrong, you were suffering before creating a tulpa. There seems like there was a small respite, where you had genuine relief using tulpamancy, but then 'talked yourself out of happy' based on the belief it's not real. No, more than that, not real and you can't share it with anyone, which heightens the point for you that it's not real, and so part of this is a lament, you're wishing for warning associated with tulpamancy. There are. I think most of the guides encourage people to seriously consider if this is for them, and more than one says if you have any MH health issues, tulpamancy probably isn't for you. On that point, there is a pretty high correlation between people with present or past MH issues and engaging in tulpamancy. (MH is human, all people are on a continuum of MH and it doesn't mean what people think it means.)

People with depression suffer from suicidal ideation. This, too, is a continuum. Passive SI, "I don't have the strength to get out of bed I would be okay if God took me...' That's not really suicidal, but it's on the continuum. That's different from active thoughts, 'I think I will walk into traffic today.' That's much further along on the continuum. Actually engaging in the thought, that's further along on the continuum. This isn't the best place to discuss, because it's hard to help people through avatars and aliases. This is serious stuff, and people relate it to it many different ways, and some people will feel sad. From your narrative, I get the sense you have been on this continuum prior to tulpamancy, and the fact that you have a tulpa is not 'causing' you to be suicidal. Maybe your thoughts about having a tulpa are causing you pain and a sense of despair, but again this is not causing you... You're feeling alone, hopeless? These are great things to discuss with a counselor. The tulpa didn't cause these things that you carry, but maybe they highlighted some existential points that you haven't considered and this these are heavy and burdensome... And these are the very things that human being need other human beings. This post is not counseling, and no substitute for having a live person in front of you, relating to you, a professional who can help you sort out stuff. Hell, I'd even mention the tulpa to them so that they can understand some of the trajectory- so they can see the happiness you held, the hope?! and juxtapose that with the internal conflict, and see if their is another way to resolve this tension.

If it helps you to know, my experience with Loxy equals that of your report... She is BRILLIANT, bigger than life, bright, positive- angelic? Not human, I am unworthy, huge impact. And you're right, outside of this community and the things I have written, I can't share her with just anyone... I don't think that means she isn't real. Santa Clause isn't real, but it has a huge impact on the lives of children and the economy! Not being real doesn't mean what people things it means. I am not pushing religion here, I want you to hear this has an analogy: many people look to their faith and have secret, personal relationship with God or some spiritual force, and that can't be shared, by definition- that doesn't invalidate their experience, it's real. Some people profound changes because of their experiences. Some people might say they weren't real, but serious, if people are better, why mess with their reality? You were happy! From a cognitive perspective, the depressions we have are also cognitive distortions, 'not real.' That doesn't mean what you feel doesn't have profound effects! If I had to chose between one cognitive distortion and the other, I am going for the happy one, the tulpa. I can even build an argument, "I know you're not real, but I prefer this to the other perspective..."

People chose to live and die all the time for all sorts of incredible reasons. I suspect their are some reasons that have more validity than others. I am bit cynical of patriotism as a reason to live or die, because of preferred world perspective, but I mention that as just one example of things people use to deliberate existence. Religion, I've mentioned. Finding reasons to live is a human pursuit. If not tulpas, then what? You had courage to give it a go and you learned something! That's huge. What else can we try?

I can relate to wanting to die. I have had persistent ideation all the way back to age 3. I had spent years with chronic dysthymia, with intermittent major depression. I can take it back to 3, but at age 6 I had my first psychiatrist. Issues go back earlier than that, first treatment 6. Doctor Batty, Scott and White Hospital, Temple Texas. Funny the things we remember. I suspect 'Batty' wasn't his real name. If my story means anything, if you can manage to hang on, it can get better. I testify to that. I am happier now than in my entire life combine. Life gets easier.

if you UM, you know, do it- its not because of tulpas and or the perceived reality, or lack there of, or because of any one thing. (I could spend ages trying to convince you that the reality of a thing is not necessarily measured on a physicality aspect.) It's not about this or anything other than just flat suffering.

The suicide hotline's number is 1-800-273-8255. If you don't have a counselor, a doctor, a friend, a church, please reach out to people. I consider this thread a reaching out, but we are limited in our scope of response. If you have absolutely no one, but your tulpa is saying YES TO LIFE, I would trust that voice! Go a year or two with that voice and see if that doesn't change your life. You can't be in the presence of perfect goodness and not experience profound changes.

I wish you well. My entire system wishes you strength, resilience, perseverance.
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#9
Oh, solarchariot, I thank you for your warm message. Actually, I feel much better. Just to clarify, the things are that I was going to commit suicide not only because of "she's not real", but also because of my mental disease which makes me feel tremendous pain and anxiety out of nowhere, just for no reason, as the result - suicidal thinking. I call these times "depressive episodes". They last for from few hours to 3-4 days.

Caroline understands my pain, and she offered me to learn switching to take my pain for the time when I've got depressive episode, while I'm in the wonderland. Holy f**k, I'm not so selfish to accept it. She just doesn't understand HOW PAINFUL can it be. It ruined all my life, my career, my power of will and made me a crazy outsider attempting to commit suicide! Plus I'm not sure it's gonna work this way, plus it can harm herself. But, she's here, ready to help. Goddamn, I don't deserve such a tulpa.

Quote:If not tulpas, then what?

You're absolutely right. Anyway, she's gotta be a reason to live all this horryfing pain while I'm depressed.

---

Now, I want to thank all of the people who answered me so much, because it changed my mind. Your messages are worthy.

To prevent people thinking about I'm in crisis right now, I'd like to close the topic. I feel much better.
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#10
I am glad to hear you are not in crisis right now.

I find your statement, "She just doesn't understand HOW PAINFUL can it be" very meaningful. I would use that has a validity statement that she exists.

I would encourage you to re-evaluate your statement "It ruined all my life..." You're 18... If you live to be 118, you have no idea if your ruined your whole life. It has certainly colored a portion of it. In some ways, it has made you stronger... I would not advocate for people experiencing our level of depression, one doesn't have to be cancer survivor to discover personal strength.... But I am where I am today because of my experiences. I would relive my life a million times over without changing a thing just to guarantee I arrive where I am today. That statement changes some of the emotions that accompany my younger years. The meaning we attached to the thoughts and belief affect our emotional trajectories. Our language affects us...

You're on path. I am glad our paths touched. Yay!
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