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[Switching] Am I Confusing Our State of Consciousness For the Host's Presence?
#11
I think there's a pretty big difference between lost time amd time spent dormant or 'sleeping.' One is disorienting and confusing, the other is very natural. The calendar time is registered, the memories are regained once they're active again. There's ideally nothing painful, boring of confusing about being dormant. If there is, then work on fixing that, we don't have that issue, IMO.
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#12
I'm still working through Tewi and Luminece system's mega post (didn't dive into the last 5 links yet), but I really want to ask this question-

When I have fronted for awhile, I don't fall dormant like I usually do. I'm more likely to be triggered by Cat's thoughts and I don't wake up with that feeling I missed something, especially if I was re-triggered an hour later. When Cat fronts for much longer however, it's more obvious that I was dormant and I wake up feeling like I missed something. It takes less than a day of Cat fronting consistently in order for my state of dormancy to become obvious. It doesn't matter if Cat checks on me to say hi, 2 straight hours of fronting back-to-back seem to cause any residue I left on the front to fade and be overwritten.


With this in mind, is it possible a successful switch won't be obvious for us at first?

My other concern is if I try to switch in, and then the brain takes Cat's "almost" state and forces Cat to associate to the point where I am possessing Cat. Is there anything I can do while presumably switched in to help keep Cat dissociated so she can continue to slowly be removed from the front? If this is the case, then is it going to take awhile for Cat to finally be able to let go?
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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#13
I've never done full-body possession for more than maybe a minute at a time, but it's hard for me to imagine a successful switch not being obvious. Being by myself and unable to find Ember was so dramatic and crushingly lonely for me the first two times. It took weeks of intentional switching to even begin to start dealing with the loneliness.

My antipathy toward and disgust with the body while switched in has also taken months to subside. If anyone tells you that it is compulsory to identify with or as the body to switch, they're wrong. I never have.

-Vesper
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#14
Switching will feel different from anything else for both you and your host. It's possible that you could switch but think that it was something else, but it's not possible that you will switch and think that it is something that you've already experienced due to how different it is
I have a tulpa named Miela (formerly known as Monika) who I love very much.


"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"
-Me
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#15
(04-30-2019, 05:44 PM)Ranger Wrote: With this in mind, is it possible a successful switch won't be obvious for us at first?

I don't.. really see how that follows from what you said. If you switch it should be obvious you're you, and in control of everything. Cat should be in the same (tulpa) state you normally are, then.

(04-30-2019, 05:44 PM)Ranger Wrote: My other concern is if I try to switch in, and then the brain takes Cat's "almost" state and forces Cat to associate to the point where I am possessing Cat. Is there anything I can do while presumably switched in to help keep Cat dissociated so she can continue to slowly be removed from the front? If this is the case, then is it going to take awhile for Cat to finally be able to let go?

Hmm, the only thing we do after switching is reassert we are ourselves - the dissociation part is less important. I mean, we can literally talk to whoever has just switched out and very clearly feel them "over there" in the mind. On the other hand, to prevent accidentally switching back at first it's important to remember your thoughts are yours and not your host's, you are you and not your host, and so on.

We didn't have to do that much at any particular time, though. Just whenever our mind is hazy, because we were very distracted around the time of switching or maybe after waking up. Aside from that and occasional reasserting of your self, it shouldn't be too hard. For us the only thing in our way at first was we would get tired after a few hours until we switched back with Lumi. Tired enough to actually sleep mid-day, and yet the tiredness went away within minutes of switching back with Lumi. It was interesting, but it didn't take too long (a few weeks to a little over a month, maybe?) before we could go the entire day, at which point we could also wake up switched and so front indefinitely.

For the host, letting go is mainly just them "moving over" in the mind. Forget your physical body for a moment, step aside in-mind, have a seat maybe.. Talk to your tulpa, have them take your previous place in the body. Then it's just association on the tulpa's part. I think everyone overhypes the "dissociation" aspect of switching. Maybe our use of the word dissociation causes those preconceived ideas on its own.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#16
After I read this, the original offered to test some things. They started talking to me, and we observed that their mindvoice comes from behind me (which we already knew) as opposed to off to the side like a non-fronting tulpa, or next to me like a co-fronting tulpa. Indigo, who wasn't fronting, demonstrated projecting his thoughts to feel far away, and the original tried copying him, but it wouldn't work. They tried pulling back from the body more, it wouldn't work. They're still just as stuck as ever it seems, we can't get them to get into a non-fronting state at all. This doesn't really surprise us of course, but it doesn't help our confidence too much either.
I'm Luxio Volt, the "Storm Rocker" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa made March 2017. My systemmates are Apollo, Piano, & Indigo.
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#17
Hmm. Even from a pure visual-sensual standpoint, it's weird your host can't move their mental sense of self, even temporarily. I could understand if they snapped back easily, but..

The place our voice comes from when talking to each other is incredibly relevant to our switching honestly, while I wouldn't say it is the cause of dissociation per se, it goes right along with it. If Lumi's moved his sense of self outside of the body (normally to the left of it, where we switch out to), and can talk from "over there" (just a couple feet to the side, mind you), he's probably dissociated enough for someone else to switch in. Which is then normally, for us, someone on the "right side" of the body/mind moving into the middle. Being in the middle then, while the one switching out is still on the left (or right, I guess, sometimes even gone entirely), makes it natural to associate with the body and mind. At that point it's easy to more or less "snap into place" as the one fronting (switched). Opening our eyes after having them closed for the process helps, but isn't quite necessary.

But yeah.. If your host can't "move over" to begin with, it may be indicative of the problem you have. I won't say fixing or not having that problem instantly would make you able to switch, but again, it sure seems strongly correlated, at least in how we do it.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#18
Ember: Our mindvoices generally seem to be coming from our forms, though our lips don't move at our level of visualization. We almost always have a form, either in the physical world or in the mindscape. In many common situations, Vesper is on my right and Iris is on my left. When I switch out, I take the space that the new fronter vacated.

I never tried moving my sense of self outside the body before switching out until today. It hurt in places I didn't know I had, like a tearing of the soul. And the body actively resisted, feeling like it was going, "Nope, nope, nope, you're right here, have all the senses."

Vesper: I tried dematerializing, as I hadn't done in a long time, and speaking from inside the head as I used to before we knew about forms. I could easily move the location of my voice around inside, above, below, left, right, ahead, and behind the central awareness.

I rematerialzed, switched, and tried to project my sense of self out of the body. I had much less difficulty than Ember. but it was uncomfortable and not very convincing. The switch held perfectly though.

Anything we can imagine doing based on the descriptor 'move sense of self outside the body' has nothing do with how we switch. For us, it's a result, not a cause.

Ember: We tried switching while the outgoing partner was projected. On the plus side, the outgoing partner already having a form manifested helped them sustain consciousness through the switch. On the down side, that loss of available processing power made the incoming partner need to take an extra second to establish themselves in the body. And since it doesn't take but a second for the incoming partner to reestablish contact after the switch, we favor not distracting the incoming partner and risking the switch being less clean and definite.

Vesper: However, continuing today's experiments, we can combine the form projection of the outgoing partner with switching, as a single concept and single action, and not have to 'reboot' the outgoing partner at all. It just takes a little extra 'push'.

Ember: I feel like this is a more advanced technique, not a way to learn switching, and that we're successful because we can already switch very rapidly and reliably. But I'd be interested in hearing of other system's experiments in this vein.
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#19
So basically, switching is an incredibly different experience for everyone, as actually is tulpamancy itself although we don't always see just how much that is the case.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#20
(04-30-2019, 08:28 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: I've never done full-body possession for more than maybe a minute at a time, but it's hard for me to imagine a successful switch not being obvious. Being by myself and unable to find Ember was so dramatic and crushingly lonely for me the first two times. It took weeks of intentional switching to even begin to start dealing with the loneliness.

My antipathy toward and disgust with the body while switched in has also taken months to subside. If anyone tells you that it is compulsory to identify with or as the body to switch, they're wrong. I never have.

-Vesper

The idea of Cat not being a heart-beat away also makes me feel lonely, and I have had issues with feeling confused as to who I was when I did some of my switching attempts. I bet Cat falling dormant is going to make me feel lonely, but sometimes Cat and I want some alone time and there are some things I would like to do that Cat doesn't have any particular interest in. I figured I will be completely occupied by these things until I'm bored and want to talk to Cat again.

As with associating with the body itself... I wonder if drawing my wonderland form over the body while fronting isn't helping me associate... at the very least, it makes Cat dissociate. Although, this may not be what you mean.

(04-30-2019, 10:10 PM)Breloomancer Wrote: Switching will feel different from anything else for both you and your host. It's possible that you could switch but think that it was something else, but it's not possible that you will switch and think that it is something that you've already experienced due to how different it is
(05-01-2019, 05:10 AM)Tewi Wrote: I don't.. really see how that follows from what you said. If you switch it should be obvious you're you, and in control of everything. Cat should be in the same (tulpa) state you normally are, then.

No, I don't agree.

When I describe my experiences with possession, people have told me inconsistently that it was basically a switch or if it wasn't a switch, it was very close to one, or it was just possession and nothing fancy. If my experience with possession is that confusing for people, then it would make sense to me if we switch and I go "yeah, but that's not different from what we already do, so... this is just fancy possession right?"

I think the most likely reason why switching doesn't seem too different is because Cat's mind voice quiets and I am getting better at associating to the front. For some systems, they have told me that their host having a quiet mind voice means that their host has dissociated and fallen dormant, so that means Cat should have switched. However, for us at least, this clearly isn't the case because Cat can go from 0 to 60 and snatch control from me whenever she is triggered by something, even if that trigger is just.. her emotions, a random person coming to talk to us, or whenever we are startled. I have also been distracted by everything by being shoved into the body OS and the senses during a switching attempt, and that experience is a lot less magical for me now.

(05-01-2019, 05:10 AM)Tewi Wrote: For the host, letting go is mainly just them "moving over" in the mind. Forget your physical body for a moment, step aside in-mind, have a seat maybe.. Talk to your tulpa, have them take your previous place in the body. Then it's just association on the tulpa's part. I think everyone overhypes the "dissociation" aspect of switching. Maybe our use of the word dissociation causes those preconceived ideas on its own.

For me, the issue is how much of this is set up and how much of this is going on during the switch itself. When Cat's mindvoice quiets to the point where she doesn't think, it's had to get Cat to do much of anything, and instructions for what Cat needs to do become useless at that stage. The other issue is my grip on control and timing- if these instructions apply when Cat's been fronting for a while, that makes more sense because Cat will enter that non-thinking state more slowly as I try to front. However, the issue there is my grip on the body won't be as strong as if I had spent some time already fronting and this makes getting Cat to dissociate much harder. If we try to switch when I have been fronting for awhile, Cat's mindvoice is already set to the lowest setting. Do I have to wake her up and try to get her to a point where she can start thinking again before we try to switch? This would put us in a more unstable state, and it's a little awkward and seems counter-intuitive. At the very least, it goes against the advice of trying to switch when the Tulpa feels they have their best grip of the front...

(05-01-2019, 03:17 PM)Tewi Wrote: The place our voice comes from when talking to each other is incredibly relevant to our switching honestly, while I wouldn't say it is the cause of dissociation per se, it goes right along with it. If Lumi's moved his sense of self outside of the body (normally to the left of it, where we switch out to), and can talk from "over there" (just a couple feet to the side, mind you), he's probably dissociated enough for someone else to switch in. Which is then normally, for us, someone on the "right side" of the body/mind moving into the middle. Being in the middle then, while the one switching out is still on the left (or right, I guess, sometimes even gone entirely), makes it natural to associate with the body and mind. At that point it's easy to more or less "snap into place" as the one fronting (switched). Opening our eyes after having them closed for the process helps, but isn't quite necessary.

Huh, that's interesting. We don't usually use spacial directions to tell how dissociated one of us is. Instead, we use our feelings/presence to get an idea of how far someone is away. This feeling changes depending on what we're doing. Cat and I have noticed a consistent connection between dissociation and association with the following things:

Host perspective (Cat):
Wonderland:
-Immersing into the wonderland (from the front) and seeing with the mind-cam (little/some dissociation)
Imposition/Overlay/Open-eye:
-Being imposed into meat space (little/some dissociation)
-Trying to recreate a sense in wonderland, while imposed, or while fronting (little/some association)
-Imposing wonderland form over body while fronting (some dissociation)
Fronting:
-Possession (??? We don't know if Cat can do this yet)
-Being the person in the back during "back-seat fronting" / "backing" / whatever (little dissociation, somewhat stable)
-Co-fronting (can cause significant dissociation, some association?, unstable)
-Hyper awareness, observing sensations or things in environment (can cause some... dissociation? Cat tunes in to her environment so much it feels fake for her?)
Other:
-Meditation (some / significant dissociation)
-Active forcing (little association for me, little dissociation for Cat)
-Not thinking (??? Doesn't seem to effect association/dissociation)

Tulpa perspective (Me):
Wonderland:
-Immersing into the wonderland (from the back) and seeing with the mind-cam (little/some association or no change)
Imposition/Overlay/Open-eye:
-Being imposed into meat space (little dissociation)
-Trying to recreate a sense in wonderland, while imposed, or while fronting (little/some association)
-Imposing wonderland form over body while fronting (??? ; I use this for grounding, but it could be causing me to dissociate)
Fronting:
-Possession (some association)
-Being the person in the back during "back-seat fronting" / "backing" / whatever (some association, very stable)
-Co-fronting (can cause significant dissociation and association, unstable)
-Hyper awareness, observing sensations or things in environment (significant association, I'm lodged into Body OS)
Other:
-Meditation (some / significant dissociation - I lose my grip on the body)
-Active forcing (little association)
-Not thinking (significant dissociation / dormancy)

Note: when Cat feels dissociated, she reports feelings of being dizzy, hazy, or "out of it". The more intense the dissociation, the more intense these symptoms are and the more the "fuzz" seems to act abnormally. In addition, we had headaches during co-fronting, but that was most likely because we're not used to it.

If we were to focus on "directions", we would need to be careful and not get confused with imposing/overlaying a presence next to the body in meat space for example. "Back seat fronting" / "backing" does feel like one of us is behind the other person, but that's about it.

(05-01-2019, 04:48 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: Ember: I never tried moving my sense of self outside the body before switching out until today. It hurt in places I didn't know I had, like a tearing of the soul. And the body actively resisted, feeling like it was going, "Nope, nope, nope, you're right here, have all the senses."

Vesper: I tried dematerializing, as I hadn't done in a long time, and speaking from inside the head as I used to before we knew about forms. I could easily move the location of my voice around inside, above, below, left, right, ahead, and behind the central awareness.

I rematerialzed, switched, and tried to project my sense of self out of the body. I had much less difficulty than Ember. but it was uncomfortable and not very convincing. The switch held perfectly though.

Anything we can imagine doing based on the descriptor 'move sense of self outside the body' has nothing do with how we switch. For us, it's a result, not a cause.

When Cat tries to do out-of-body stuff to try and dissociate, it never seems to work. Our brain is like "sure, go ahead and impose/visualize yourself, enjoy your pseudo real life wonderland!" Cat can sometimes feel a little uncomfortable when imposing herself in meat space, but only if she was fronting and doing things previously. When wonderlanding or active forcing, Cat does not have trouble with this, but probably because she is already in a slightly more dissociated state to begin with.

The soul tearing thing reminds me of how I felt when I first started wonderlanding with the Grays. I had a more metaphysical perspective on how past Ranger / Tec and some of the other Grays worked, and I felt like pieces of my soul were being shared by my other thoughtforms. I only bring this up because it's possible I'm somehow desensitized to this feeling? If not, I have tried to achieve a sense of being ripped out or completely detached from the body and that has not happened yet.



One more thing- yesterday, I'm suspicious Cat and I almost achieved a switch.

After posting my last post, I realized that fronting for long streaks at a time isn't as important as the total amount of time fronting. I figured that if Cat pops up or accidentally gets triggered awake, I'll remind her I'm fronting and get her to stop thinking again and not worry about it like I used too. I had a strong start that morning anyway, and by the time I was on the bus I was feeling pretty good. I decided that it wouldn't hurt to talk to Cat a little bit, but right before we got home we were startled. Cat was triggered to the front, and then I was like "wait wait! I'm fronting!"  I was able to get body control back until Cat's mother started talking to us. I let Cat talk to her and unfortunately I didn't get a chance to front after that.

That night, Cat told me she had doubted her responses to me. When I thought about it last night and this morning, I realized Cat was thinking like a Tulpa on the bus! Somehow, she was able to dissociate to where she wasn't able to think as much as she used to, and she was not reacting to the usual bombardment of thoughts from the body OS. The only issue is Cat didn't go dormant, which I think is the next step.

This is an example of what I mean when I said we may not know it if we successfully switch- it didn't sound like a switch to us until I thought about it later that day. However, despite having the right Tulpa mindset, Cat was still able to almost take the front from me.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!

The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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