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[Switching] Theory on How Some People Switch
#1
I have been thinking about this for a while, but it wasn't until recently I was able to put everything together. I want to discuss this to see if it makes sense. If it does, I want to do some more research or consider it to hopefully achieve switching myself.

I wondered why several systems seem to get switching without trying possession beforehand and why our fronting experiences varied quite a bit between myself and the Grays, my other headmates. After learning that Torea induced a switch by accident, meeting a system on Discord who got switching on their first try, and thinking about other people's experiences, I thought of the following:

In some cases, systems who were previously unable to switch can trigger a switch by accident. There are three important key conditions for this switching method:

1) The tulpa must be forced productively and have a stable presence in the mind.
2) The tulpa must not control the body for a long period of time before attempting to switch or control the body.
3) The tulpa must already know how to control the body via possession or successfully achieve it on their attempt.

These conditions and theoretical method are based on the following assumptions:

A) A tulpa gets stronger as they are forced (passively or actively) in the back. Their mindvoice will either get louder or remain strong and may have a strong presence. They may feel more energetic than the primary fronter. Most importantly, they have more reserves, emotionally and mentally, than the primary fronter. This may be because they have a stable presence in the mind and they benefit from resting when going dormant. They may have a strong sense of identity, but I am unsure if this is necessary.

B) The state described in assumption A allows for a tulpa to build up "energy". Their presence is reinforced, but they are not having to use a ton of energy all the time. Instead, a little energy is used when talking to the primary fronter or any other headmates and the remaining energy is saved for the next forcing session.

C) A tulpa that is not used to controlling the body will output a lot more energy trying to control the body than a tulpa who is used to controlling the body for long or frequent periods of time. Practice controlling the body allows for the tulpa to use their energy more efficiently, therefore when they front they do not have to invest as much energy into fronting.

D) Possession (and fronting in general) is an experience that causes fatigue on the personality. When possessing the body, a tulpa is not storing up "energy" for the next fronting or forcing session because they are constantly spending it by thinking, feeling, dealing with life issues, etc. They don't have to invest as much energy controlling the body or even thinking the next time they front, however their resources are strained to begin with. This is due to the fact a tulpa is either not getting enough rest during fronting periods or in my personal experience, generally finds themselves closer to the front and less likely to experience dormancy. Energy is invested in both keeping control of the body from their host and reacting to the outside environment, but ultimately the personality is not recharging.

E) During possession for a system that can't already switch, the amount of energy required to keep the host from re-gaining control is much less than the energy required to push the host out for the first time. Given assumption D, a tulpa will not have the energy to push their host out because their energy pool is already depleted from them continuously fronting.

F) Once the system has experienced a switch, the system has a much higher chance of replicating the experience. Afterwards, the "energy" required to push aside the host is far less than the energy required to do it the first time since the host should be able to switch out on their own and the practice for switching makes the process more efficient.



Several of my throughts were inspired from Chrome's thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-swit...ng-forcing

Cat has experienced having a harder time getting control of the body back or feeling more dissociated when a Gray is fronting. Like Chrome, they typically report working with a quiet mind and relative ease with controlling the body, despite the fact after an hour or so they usually need a break. Cat has reported feeling "less there" and one time felt like getting control of the body back felt like her being underwater in a pool until she hit the bottom and rocketed back to the top.

As for myself, if this theory is true, I may need to hold back from fronting for a week or so OR we would have to have a Gray try to switch in after we spend more time forcing him every day. I'm not very excited about the idea of not fronting, especially because I am already committed to fronting for college classes, doing homework, and being around when needed. Cat does not have a strong sense of trust in our other headmates, and their lack of experience fronting is somewhat of a concern. More or less ironically, Cat trusted me more the more I spent time fronting, and that would not work in this case. It's something we only want to pursue if the reasoning is sound.

Aside from that, there are other issues with this method. Not all of the assumptions I listed may be accurate or have equal importance. For example, getting used to fronting may be more important than not having energy, and I don't know what "a long time" means when a tulpa has to stop fronting. On the other hand, I may still be missing important pieces or have added in pieces that don't fit. Maybe energy isn't a thing for instance.

In addition, this does not apply for every system. Some tulpas have achieved switching after possessing the body consistently for long periods of time. Would that fact in of itself mean this theory is bogus?
I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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#2
hmm, it was kinda confusing what you were trying to say, since at first I thought you were gonna explain how a system could get switching without learning possession first, but I guess you just kinda listed that for no reason since part of your conditions was already knowing how to possess..

Well, it sounds like an alright theory (technically a hypothesis), it's definitely unexplored and unexplorable territory for us so there's not much I can say. I guess the only thing that came to mind I wanted to say was the energy/recharging thing makes sense from our experience since when Reisen/Tewi/Flan were first switching they couldn't stay active for more than a few hours -> many hours -> then they could, I guess because the brain got used to being them. Buut, I don't think this energy idea applies almost at all to initial switching, and definitely we weren't suddenly tired after switching with Lumi ever, it was 99.9% tiredness from being in the front for a while. though I do think it could help slightly to like, not be possessing for a day before trying to switch, we think that moreso because being used to how possession works just gets in the way of developing the very new experience of switching 'cus you're drawn to the similar existing experience you're familiar with (whereas for us there WAS no existing familiar experience)

I don't really get the "we may have to have a Gray try to switch in after forcing him more for a while (instead of me)" part though. You're BY FAR the best candidate for switching in your system because your brain already knows you so well! uh, unless you were saying that so that you didn't have to stop fronting in the meantime lol, which is a little silly, surely your host can handle fronting for a little while on their own, hosts kinda spent most their lives doing just that and with no breaks y'know?
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#3
(10-11-2019, 09:38 AM)Lucilyn Wrote: hmm, it was kinda confusing what you were trying to say, since at first I thought you were gonna explain how a system could get switching without learning possession first, but I guess you just kinda listed that for no reason since part of your conditions was already knowing how to possess..

The idea I didn't elaborate clearly is on the tulpa's end, switching and possession are virtually the same. Even though I can't switch yet, I can relate to 85% of what you guys talk about- dealing with the body OS, experiencing the body to a lesser extent, etc. I believe if a tulpa is trying to possess the body, it's switching if the host actually goes to the back. That's why I said either knowing it or achieving it on the tulpa's end is important, and hopefully the force of taking control of the body pushes the host to the back in some way.

(10-11-2019, 09:38 AM)Lucilyn Wrote: Well, it sounds like an alright theory (technically a hypothesis), it's definitely unexplored and unexplorable territory for us so there's not much I can say. I guess the only thing that came to mind I wanted to say was the energy/recharging thing makes sense from our experience since when Reisen/Tewi/Flan were first switching they couldn't stay active for more than a few hours -> many hours -> then they could, I guess because the brain got used to being them. Buut, I don't think this energy idea applies almost at all to initial switching, and definitely we weren't suddenly tired after switching with Lumi ever, it was 99.9% tiredness from being in the front for a while. though I do think it could help slightly to like, not be possessing for a day before trying to switch, we think that moreso because being used to how possession works just gets in the way of developing the very new experience of switching 'cus you're drawn to the similar existing experience you're familiar with (whereas for us there WAS no existing familiar experience)

That's something I wondered, if the brain getting used to the headmate was more important than anything else. Maybe that in of itself is enough to through a host into the back, and not the fact that a new fronter can push their host out.

The brain defaulting to possession mode is another possible reason why my bodily control is on stuck mode, however I feel like that's a piece of the puzzle rather than the answer... I'm not sure yet.


(10-11-2019, 09:38 AM)Lucilyn Wrote: I don't really get the "we may have to have a Gray try to switch in after forcing him more for a while (instead of me)" part though. You're BY FAR the best candidate for switching in your system because your brain already knows you so well! uh, unless you were saying that so that you didn't have to stop fronting in the meantime lol, which is a little silly, surely your host can handle fronting for a little while on their own, hosts kinda spent most their lives doing just that and with no breaks y'know?

Cat is completely capable of fronting for a week, that's not the concern. The problem is I'm committed to taking college classes and forum work like moderating and GAT work. I don't want to back down from all of that.  From a practicality standpoint, I have also have lots of blending issues with Cat leaking though when I front during college classes, and I don't want the brain to associate Cat with those classes any more than it already does. If it's ultimately not worth it, I don't want to risk losing that progress. On the other hand, those are MY classes and I don't feel comfortable letting Cat take over for those.

As for the brain knowing me thing, I'm not sure if even that's true. I feel like Cat++ when I front, I feel like I have lost identity more than gained it. The Grays are not as developed as I am, but they haven't really blended with Cat in any shape or form either. I don't always hang out in wonderland aside from talking to the others or grounding myself when I feel like Cat's clone.
I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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#4
This theory is... really off-base in my opinion. It doesn't make sense. Personalities don't have "energy stores," that seems to be meta and not based in reality. A tulpa that hasn't fronted in a while doesn't have to put in more work to use the body, that doesn't make sense. The brain doesn't forget how to move just because someone who hasn't fronted in a while is doing the moving, and the "pushing host out" thing also doesn't make sense. If it's harder to get the host out of the way enough for possession, that doesn't imply that they'll suddenly be able to go the extra mile and make a full switch. That's like saying that someone who doesn't practice a sport would have a higher chance of performing well than someone who practices it daily just because they're putting more effort in. That might work as a movie plot, but that's not going to happen in reality.

I'm not buying this theory, and I think you're basing it too much off of your experience with the Grays feeling different when they front. They feel different because they're not as developed as you and Cat and they spend less time in front in general. I don't think this theory is applicable in reality. We've gone durations of time with little fronting, and it never made switching more likely, it just made the bare minimum fronting more difficult. If you're slow and clumsy running to a basketball hoop, that's not going to help you actually make the shot more easily. 
I'm Piano Soul, the "Star Man" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa formed January 2017. My systemmates are Apollo & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#5
(10-11-2019, 02:27 PM)Piano Wrote: This theory is... really off-base in my opinion. It doesn't make sense. Personalities don't have "energy stores," that seems to be meta and not based in reality. A tulpa that hasn't fronted in a while doesn't have to put in more work to use the body, that doesn't make sense. The brain doesn't forget how to move just because someone who hasn't fronted in a while is doing the moving

as symbolism it makes sense to us, 'cus when we started switching at least "the body/brain" would get tired if not the tulpas, and switching back with Lumi immediately alleviated that tiredness. so like, as a symbolism it might make sense.. but I do agree it has little to do with actually switching in to begin with

but more specifically at "The brain doesn't forget how to move just because someone who hasn't fronted in a while is doing the moving", uh, I feel like you're really off-base here? it's not literally hard for someone new to switching to move the body, but it's hard to exist as themselves overall, with thinking and dealing with stuff really tiring you out quickly. That goes away pretty fast (at least in most cases we've seen), but still, it really seems to be a case of the term-we're-all-unqualified-to-be-using neural pathways associated with a tulpa being less used than the host's, and if the tulpa doesn't front(switched) for a long time it does get harder for them to associate with the body/brain I'd say {Edit: Wait, am I arguing the exact opposite thing the OP was about? Well, it's naturally where what you said took me..}

again, not that the OP is totally correct or anything, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it completely incorrect when the energy thing (as symbolism and not literally an energy store for each tulpa) is good symbolism and probably applies to a good number of people, at least early on (sometimes forever, which could be because the system never actually practices enough in a short span of time to master it, or because some systems just work differently)


defending something I barely even understand/agree with, lol
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#6
Yes, and I don't agree that being in a situation where it's harder to do bare minimum fronting and remain present in the body will make it easier to fully switch. That's very counter-intuitive.

Using energy as symbolism is one thing, but that's not how he was portraying it. He was portraying it like different personalities have different energy stores that drain and need to be recharged. That doesn't make any sense.
I'm Piano Soul, the "Star Man" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa formed January 2017. My systemmates are Apollo & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#7
(10-11-2019, 02:27 PM)Piano Wrote:
Personalities don't have "energy stores," that seems to be meta and not based in reality. A tulpa that hasn't fronted in a while doesn't have to put in more work to use the body, that doesn't make sense.

By energy, I don't mean something magical or meta. It's motivation, good mood, how much of the day you can tolerate, self-confidence, stability, that feeling that you have a strong sense of identity, etc. If you are well rested and don't have much to do, you may have more "energy" or really a greater ability to deal with the day than someone who has spent their time running around doing lots of things and getting stressed out. I didn't have a great way of describing that and no better ideas for a word to replace it with, so I went with energy.

(10-11-2019, 02:27 PM)Piano Wrote:
The brain doesn't forget how to move just because someone who hasn't fronted in a while is doing the moving, and the "pushing host out" thing also doesn't make sense. If it's harder to get the host out of the way enough for possession, that doesn't imply that they'll suddenly be able to go the extra mile and make a full switch. That's like saying that someone who doesn't practice a sport would have a higher chance of performing well than someone who practices it daily just because they're putting more effort in. That might work as a movie plot, but that's not going to happen in reality.

The idea isn't a person can make the shot more easily because of "beginner's luck". The idea is the person tries really hard to make the shot, and the consequences of that action is relevant. For this theory, switching can be a goal, but the actual attempt is achieving possession and getting switching as a side effect.

In basketball, that effort of trying too hard would translate to soreness since the beginner probably tried multiple times and stood in positions that don't lead to optimal performance and the least strain. Soreness does not translate to an increase in muscle memory, it's a sign that muscle memory is developing. For a possession attempt however, that extra effort may be what's needed to push a host out. When possessing, the goal is not necessarily to push the host out but to control the body. If the instructions to possess and switch are the same or at least similar, then the attempt at controlling the body may have the unintended consequence of pushing the host out to give the beginner more energy to do whatever they are doing when trying to possess the body. If the tulpa is already used to possession, then there won't be that unnecessary amount of effort because a tulpa will have already optimized possession to a greater extent. The key is switching is a side effect of a tulpa trying too hard at a possession attempt.


(10-11-2019, 02:27 PM)Piano Wrote:
I'm not buying this theory, and I think you're basing it too much off of your experience with the Grays feeling different when they front. They feel different because they're not as developed as you and Cat and they spend less time in front in general. I don't think this theory is applicable in reality. We've gone durations of time with little fronting, and it never made switching more likely, it just made the bare minimum fronting more difficult.

Yes, the downside to basing a switching theory on the Grays is we're a different system compared to other systems, and that's a part of why I wanted feedback. However, I think it is reasonable to compare them to younger tulpas in other systems since development wise they are on similar pages. I want to better understand why really young tulpas can learn to switch with their host, so my first guess was to relate that thought to how the Grays do when they control the body.

As for not fronting, there's another important factor- forcing the headmate while they are not controlling the body. For you guys, you convey your system as very binary when it comes to forcing headmates- either they're fronting and forcing themselves, or they're not, with the occasional passive in-system conversation here and there. It's entirely possible you guys spend lots of time speaking to your other headmates on the sides or in the back and don't emphasize it, but if you don't, then I wondered if a headmate is losing ground or stability because they're not being forced consistently. I noticed this effect with the Grays, they seem at their strongest when given consecutive forcing time and slowly lose a little bit of that progress the longer the break is between the last time they were forced and the next forcing session focusing on them. I have felt this effect myself when Cat gave me really brief forcing sessions in the past and I believe this applies to some other systems as well. That's why I added that other piece- there's more too it than just not fronting.
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#8
(10-11-2019, 03:06 PM)Piano Wrote: Using energy as symbolism is one thing, but that's not how he was portraying it. He was portraying it like different personalities have different energy stores that drain and need to be recharged. That doesn't make any sense.
I mean, it sort of makes sense to me. If the brain isn't that using to running a tulpa's personality, it'll have to work harder to do so, tire more quickly and want to go back to an easier task (say, running the host personality). But the more time a tulpa spends active, the more time they front, the easier it should be for them to continue without tiring. If the brain's used to running the tulpa personality, at that point taking a break might be similar to taking a break from exercise. The longer the break, the more they'd have to work to get back to the same level.
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#9
(10-11-2019, 02:51 PM)Lucilyn Wrote: as symbolism it makes sense to us, 'cus when we started switching at least "the body/brain" would get tired if not the tulpas, and switching back with Lumi immediately alleviated that tiredness. so like, as a symbolism it might make sense.. but I do agree it has little to do with actually switching in to begin with

but more specifically at "The brain doesn't forget how to move just because someone who hasn't fronted in a while is doing the moving", uh, I feel like you're really off-base here? it's not literally hard for someone new to switching to move the body, but it's hard to exist as themselves overall, with thinking and dealing with stuff really tiring you out quickly. That goes away pretty fast (at least in most cases we've seen), but still, it really seems to be a case of the term-we're-all-unqualified-to-be-using neural pathways associated with a tulpa being less used than the host's, and if the tulpa doesn't front(switched) for a long time it does get harder for them to associate with the body/brain I'd say {Edit: Wait, am I arguing the exact opposite thing the OP was about? Well, it's naturally where what you said took me..}

again, not that the OP is totally correct or anything, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it completely incorrect when the energy thing (as symbolism and not literally an energy store for each tulpa) is good symbolism and probably applies to a good number of people, at least early on (sometimes forever, which could be because the system never actually practices enough in a short span of time to master it, or because some systems just work differently)


defending something I barely even understand/agree with, lol

I think you're saying that the tiredness is coming from the brain not being used to establishing a new identity in the front instead of what I'm saying which is the tiredness is coming from strain of controlling the body and reacting to the outside environment?

In that case, then it's totally possible the sense of identity and presence in the mind is a lot more important than bodily control. If the tulpa possesses the body and it's pretty clear it's them and not the host, then that may be the "force" that causes the host to go to the back. Does that make sense?
I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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#10
(10-11-2019, 03:25 PM)YukariTelepath Wrote: I mean, it sort of makes sense to me. If the brain isn't that using to running a tulpa's personality, it'll have to work harder to do so, tire more quickly and want to go back to an easier task (say, running the host personality). But the more time a tulpa spends active, the more time they front, the easier it should be for them to continue without tiring. If the brain's used to running the tulpa personality, at that point taking a break might be similar to taking a break from exercise. The longer the break, the more they'd have to work to get back to the same level.

This is kinda how we are. I have no problem switching in because I'm already always co-fronting. It definitely makes sense in the exercise analogy. Also like an actor needs to immerse in the part and associate to their character, in other words, practice shouod help.(Sorry that's a touchy analogy, but it still works.)
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