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The relationship between possession and switching
#21
If switching depends on mindset and certain skills, and we are struggling because we don't have the right mindset and skills, the reason we could have learned possession was simply because that was more achievable for us than switching. I don't think learning possession in itself is the issue, rather that we don't have the right skills and the right mindset.

I have the feeling we are slowly getting a better mindset for switching, despite the fact we are still confused. However, I also would like to argue the same thing for dissociation- Cat seems to dissociate a lot more than she used to, and that didn't come about until practicing different things like meditation and co-fronting.

I think the Felights have it harder than us- not only are they trying to figure stuff out, but their host is also either combining with their body OS or their host is continuing to slowly fade away on their own. It may be that the Felights have to wait for things to stabilize before they can switch, and that in of itself may force delays for them.

As for us, I don't have the ability to just front for a whole day without Flame freaking out. I can't even test if me possessing for a long enough period of time will induce a switch, especially since some systems reported that it takes at least a couple days to a week sometimes. Again, we may just have the wrong circumstances to switch, and we simply need more time. On a more or less related note, we're not even sure if the Gray's presence has anything to do with Cat's ability to switch. It's possible they have somehow grounded Cat or maybe they have nothing to do with anything.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!

The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#22
(04-28-2019, 03:32 PM)Apollo Wrote: I really don't want to see that spiral into people not letting their tulpas learn fronting first because of our switching troubles.

Even if it could be proven that extended full body possession made learning to switch harder in more systems than it made learning easier, learning possession would be justified most of the time. Being able to have an effect on the physical world and communicate with out-system people on their own has been too important in the mental and social development too many tulpas. Learning to switch is not a requirement for all tulpas. Many aren't that deeply invested in physicality and that's okay. If a host and their possessing partner are getting along, enjoying one another's company, I don't see why switching needs to be prioritized. We switch mainly because it's much easier than possession for us. Protracted efforts to not think, not feel, and not act sound extremely unappealing to me as a host. All of my efforts have instead been directed toward learning to think, feel, and act in spite of being switched out, what we call "learning to think like a tulpa".

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#23
Apollo, we may have some difference in definitions confusing things. My definition of switching doesn't require the host to be dormant, so a situation where Aya is in the front seat (primary thinker, controlling the body without interference), and I'm in the back seat (not the primary thinker, but still around observing and commenting) is basically what we were trying for. And I expect I would go dormant if Aya was busy focusing on something. I'm not sure exactly what fronting means for you, but it doesn't sound like anything I'm trying to avoid. Actually, I'm just dipping my toes into this subject of possession/switching, so I'm mostly trying and seeing what works for us. I believe it was comments from Ember.Vesper and Lumi's system that had me considering I could start with switching.

(04-28-2019, 03:43 PM)Tewi Wrote: I'll maintain that they aren't necessarily related phenomena, however. They may help teach the tulpa and host how to think and work in a different way, which could help learn to switch. But I don't believe the sort of control a tulpa has in possession is at all the same as with switching - in our case, and probably many others'? But with how subjective these experiences are, I also don't doubt that the switching a system may accomplish could be the same kind of control. It's perhaps too blurry for us to be making claims at all.

Actually, I'm curious what this difference between full body possession and switching is. To me it appeared they are very related, the difference being how dissociated the host is. How does switching work for you guys? I don't suppose you have a guide or description written somewhere?
My tulpa Aya writes in this color.
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#24
Post-writing: I'm going to deem this a "Very Important Post" - it entirely sums up our thoughts on identities, switching, and to some extent how tulpamancy works. It is an awful lot of reading, and shouldn't be taken lightly.

We've not written formal guides, no, but we have a couple of "vague" posts on how we switch. I'm conflicted on listing our old reference posts on switching versus writing new stuff, here. I guess I'll note really quick: Switching's end result is the tulpa could live the rest of their life basically being the host, while the host is no different from a tulpa and could easily never be thought of again - and if other tulpas exist in the system, they and the host should be literally the same thing. Possession, even relatively advanced full-body possession (where lines tend to blur and tulpas sometimes do control some of the "conscious workspace's" thoughts), still has the host where they've always been mentally. Still in control if they want to be, still at least relatively aware if a bit removed from the experience perhaps. A tulpa's exact state in full-body possession surely changes by system and experience with it.

And now, I guess I'll link a bunch of our reference posts (we keep a very large list), about switching. Many of these were directed towards Apollo's system at various points in time, although as apparent it didn't work out for them.
https://community.tulpa.info/thread-our-...#pid186167
-> https://community.tulpa.info/thread-game...#pid204361
Getting more advanced, and surprisingly on-topic to this thread https://community.tulpa.info/thread-what...#pid238855

And now that I look, we've actually got more posts than I remember listed at the very top of our Reference Posts which is usually where we put "meta-tulpamancy" stuff (and what Lucilyn called a "heckin' thesis"). If you're willing to delve a bit deeper (and read through potentially the same thing as these were all made at very different times with no reference to each other), I suppose you can look through them, preferably after reading the above three. I don't know exactly what's in each of these posts, but if we saved them at the top of our list they must hopefully have been worth saving. Note the final one is something we referenced here, the last time we talked about "meta-tulpamancy" and where we decided not to anymore.
Some of these "descriptions" were obviously written by Lucilyn, as our list is for personal use only, but I'm just going to copy/paste verbatim.

Hold it - please read this first - in the end I did end up reading through all of these, and along with the brief discussion I had with Bre the other day, I now understand and can fairly warn about the biggest problem in our discussing "meta-tulpamancy". There's a "removed perspective" (the "meta" in "meta-tulpamancy") that we sometimes have mentioned, but it is not very well talked about in our "meta-tulpamancy" posts, and that's a HUGE cause of possible misinterpretation.

What you will read may, if you've misinterpreted, make you think "So switching just has me pretending I'm my tulpa?" This hypothetical response is how I isolated the problem. As I wrote about before in this thread, the lack of the correct perspective will leave our explanations seemingly comprehensible but they'll be taken totally incorrectly. "Meta-tulpamancy" is a removed-view above one's sense of self, with "you" essentially referring to the overarching body and mind, absolutely not the host. The host in that hypothetical response does not "method act to think they're the tulpa" - the brain itself does. Also, method acting is a crude comparison, but with this disclaimer in mind you should have the appropriate context to read on from here.
Quote:How plurality works (wow, heckin' thesis here)
https://community.tulpa.info/thread-evid...#pid202547

"meta" tulpamancy
https://community.tulpa.info/thread-swit...#pid198258

OUR "meta" tulpamancy, making tulpas without believing in them
https://community.tulpa.info/thread-surv...#pid204957

Meta-est tulpamancy, explaining switching
https://community.tulpa.info/thread-sun-...#pid247027

Talking to Ember about our Switching
https://community.tulpa.info/thread-inte...#pid235831
That "Making tulpas without believing in them" thing sounds like clickbait when posted in public, lol. Also after reading that, it seems Lucilyn forgot to be more clear that we believe in tulpas, even though it's our model of tulpamancy that would allow someone else to create tulpas without having faith in their sentience first. We believe in each other as people (and if any of us is fronting, we have pretty obvious proof we exist as not-our-host), but we also can explain how we - including Lumi - work as a whole.

Well, this post took probably two hours to put together. But if anything I'd like to thank you, Yukari, for helping me place what exactly is so damning about our discussing "Meta-tulpamancy". Stated more clearly now: It's the fact that an explanation of tulpas, hosts, and identities requires a "removed-perspective" or "above the sense of self perspective" - one that we have learned to see, but that very few others have. Therefore, when these explanations are read with the attached perspective (typically, "Believing you are your mind and your mind is you", an average singlet's mindset, but something most tulpamancers do not shed before learning to switch), it reads as "Tulpamancy is only acting". With the correct perspective, and an understanding that internal experience cannot be "real" or "fake" but only what you perceive and think of it as, the explanations are hopefully much more enlightening.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#25
I'm a bit confused on something. If switching is really just overriding everything in the mind as being the tulpa rather than the host, why is it necessary for the host to dissociate from the body? Those two concepts don't seem to work in tandem with each other. Unless I'm misinterpreting, which I probably am. Or does the host have to dissociate before the tulpa overrides, otherwise it's just fronting? If that's the case then that would make sense. 
I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano, Luxio, & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#26
I love it when Tewi explains this. For once our experiences match something with someone 100% (other than using symbols or colors). We just do it without any symbolism because it distracts me and anchors me to the front. If Dashie or Ashley tries to 'think of the symbolism' by then they're already switched. I'm usually a separate presence just above the body's shoulders right or left. We also believe that Dashie could take over and basically forget about me, because she can block me and 'I' don't have any thought process at times anyway. I can't actually steal back the front, let's just say, 'it never crosses my mind'. If she doesn't 'force me' then I'm effectively a silent memory recorder from my perspective. I believe I can effectively dissapear, Dashie has a much different attitude wrt people and conversations, so she does/says things that I'm sure I could never do myself.
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#27
There's one point I'm unclear on, but, since what Tewi/Lumi's system said was divided over at least five forum posts, I'd like to try and summarize first, just to make sure I understand everything properly

1) Tulpas and hosts are the same kind of entity; like many people, you think "host" is just a title for the thoughtform (identity?) that came first
2) Most of the computational power of the system comes from the "mind," which is neither a tulpa nor a host (Clarification: By computational power, I obviously do not mean just the ability to do math, but also to calculate courses of action, come up with specific word choices, and so on. Semantics: I would prefer to say that the brain contains both thoughtforms and unconscious computational modules. What you called the brain/mind would be the computational modules)
3) "Switched in" refers to who has primary control over the brain's computational modules; the corollary to point 1 is that whether a thoughtform is switched in or out is vastly more important than whether or not a thoughtform is a tulpa or a host.
4) The upshot to all this is that switching does not involve the tulpa imposing new computational modules on the brain, but instead it involes disconnecting the host from those computational modules and connecting the tulpa to the computational modules.

What I'm unclear on:

5) From what you've said, one could conclude that there are two broad possibilities for switching: a) you set a variety of variables in the brain to certain things until they match the tulpa rather than the host. I could switch by upping the brain's confidence and decreasing its anxiety, or b) There is an "I" variable somewhere in the brain that has to be un-set from Uncannyfellow and then set to Cornelia

Because of Apollo's point, I do feel that B is more logical-seeming. The brain isn't literally a computer, so it's entirely possible that the "I" variable could be set to both Uncannyfellow and Cornelia at the same time, resulting in co-fronting. Conversely, being both anxious and not-anxious at the same time is a logical impossibility

I do feel I must have misunderstood you and your systemmates somewhere, because "switching is a lot like method acting" is the worst possible articulation of these ideas I can think of. If I've understood you correctly, it wouldn't surprise me if the reason Embyr dislikes these ideas has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, and instead wholly with how you present them
I live in a castle and have two tulpas, Kanade-chan and Uncannyfellow
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#28
Thank you, Tewi, for taking the time and putting that post together.
My tulpa Aya writes in this color.
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#29
It's a lot easier for us to think this way because of all our time spent co-fronting. A year. It's always been all of us together (4) even though I'm primarily in control and they're just sitting back. They partially possess to gain control when they need it usually.

We had this issue shortly after getting really comfortable with switching that Dashie and Ashley started inadvertently steeling the front and fully switched in. We had to put up symbolism to stop them. I need to consiously remain in front or they'll take it. It seems silly, but that's what happened and maybe it had to do with my normal mode of being dissociated on a regular basis to experience wonderland more fully. It's a alight boost between normal and full, 10%, so maybe they only have to overcome a small anchor I have to the front.

Anyway, we played a game called, 'what would Dashie do?' Where I'm not allowed to be involved in her thinking. I have to shut up and sit back and let her show me how to properly interact. It was interesting, but the result was our first switch where she blocked me from 'speaking'. She took 100% of the mind resources and i couldn't access even the subroutines required to speak. For nine seconds I was painfully aware that she was in complete control and i was at her will.

The key, I concentrated fully on not interupting or interfering with her for about 30-90 minutes. We started with proxy, I could only do what she said I could do. It put her in command which was a forced eclipse. Then she fully possessed and I didn't have to follow her orders, she was doing it, all I had to do was nothing. That's hard because things catch you off guard, but it got me familiar with the notion that I'm not in charge, it's her body. Then it unknowingly turned into a switch, I zoned out, nothing of me remained, she was handling it.

Tewi will answer your question a lot better, but this was my take on why she said 'method acting' but the 'actor' is her, not me, and she's just being herself.
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#30
(04-29-2019, 01:45 PM)Apollo Wrote:
I'm a bit confused on something. If switching is really just overriding everything in the mind as being the tulpa rather than the host, why is it necessary for the host to dissociate from the body? Those two concepts don't seem to work in tandem with each other.

(04-26-2019, 12:38 AM)Tewi Wrote: And that's not well received, even by Ember and Vesper, who otherwise have seemingly had tons of the same experiences and explanations as we have. Hilariously, the current fronter not dissociating before being switched with only works in our "meta-tulpamancy" model

The symbolism - and doing it as a process rather than instantly - is one hundred percent for "immersion". But I don't mean immersion versus disbelief - I mean we would get awfully jumbled up if we went around switching instantly, or without switching out first. If Lucilyn didn't switch out before I switched in - first of all, that is poor form for tulpamancy, we're a tulpamancy system not a DID one - but second, without the dissociation (which consists mainly of Lucilyn in this case moving her sense of self and visualized form outside of the body, where there's no lapse of consciousness and she can talk from there with the rest of us fine) I don't think the switch would be as clean, and I might accidentally keep some of her mannerisms for a few minutes until I was better associated, maybe. The 20 or so second switching process we do prevents that just fine. But as we've said before, we think we may be capable of instantly switching in and out, but don't because it's less clean. It does seem to be an option though, and perhaps other systems may find the symbolism unnecessary.

(04-29-2019, 08:33 PM)Cornelia Wrote: 1) Tulpas and hosts are the same kind of entity; like many people, you think "host" is just a title for the thoughtform (identity?) that came first

Yeah, sorry, "identity" is a word we've taken as our own and given its own tulpamancy (plurality) definition. Sort of like what the larger community did with possession or something. It still works with its old definition, but a somewhat more nuanced one made from context is intended, sorry if it throws you off at first.

(04-29-2019, 08:33 PM)Cornelia Wrote: I do feel I must have misunderstood you and your systemmates somewhere, because "switching is a lot like method acting" is the worst possible articulation of these ideas I can think of.

Is it that bad? We've been iffy on using "method acting" at all, but only because it gives the impression it's the host pretending to be a tulpa. With my recent focus on this "removed perspective" we automatically shift to, I think I've been put off of that entirely, because no one in their right mind is going to interpret that the "right way" and it's unfair to think they would - right in how we meant it, but probably not right in any other sense. I suppose I could go remove references to it entirely - it didn't help that we were unclear enough on what it actually is to predict the connotations people would take it with.

(04-29-2019, 08:33 PM)Cornelia Wrote: What I'm unclear on:

5) From what you've said, one could conclude that there are two broad possibilities for switching: a) you set a variety of variables in the brain to certain things until they match the tulpa rather than the host. I could switch by upping the brain's confidence and decreasing its anxiety, or b) There is an "I" variable somewhere in the brain that has to be un-set from Uncannyfellow and then set to Cornelia

Because of Apollo's point, I do feel that B is more logical-seeming.

"a)" there sounds terrible. That's a logical fear one might have when considering our model, though, and it would surely harm the legitimacy of the switch (although not prevent the same outcome with a lot of practice and mental sureness, perhaps). However, right from the first time we switched (Lumi with Reisen), there were far more than just a "few variables" changed. It was possible right from the start to basically "take everything with her" - there was no blending or so on. There was what I'm no longer going to call a sort of "sensory overload" though - but that seems to have negative connotations exclusively. It wasn't negative, just moreso since Reisen was seeing and experiencing the world for the first time, she was very sensitive (again not negatively) to the senses. It was totally quiet (like 4AM) so I don't know about sound, but she was amazed by the "moonlight" in our front yard when she looked outside, and for a good few days any of us who switched were mesmerized by textures, both visual and physical. We'd feel the bumpiness of our wall, smoothness of our desk, that sort of thing. We also got tired quickly (2-4 hours), but that was relieved nearly instantly upon switching back with Lumi.

Of course, hardly anyone seems to experience this these days. It might've been the fact that we were almost five years old by that point and had never once interacted with the real world, I don't know.

Anyways, I'd say it's much more like "b)". While you may have to reassert who you are to your brain for a while, switching is capable of being an "all at once" thing, and if it weren't we wouldn't speak of it so highly. It's not "acting" so much as it is switching what set of ways of thinking your brain is using - what our definition of "identity" is. Perhaps this isn't as hard to grasp as it once seemed two years ago, and we never should've brought up "acting" as a crumbly stepping stone to understanding in the first place.
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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