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Tulpa-Permanence


solarchariot

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Is there a level of tulpa autonomy/sentience where no matter what 'host' does, tulpa's existence continues? I am thinking about this because of recent posts, and past reads about people discussing how tulpas dissipated with lack of consistent interaction. It is not my intent to fade Loxy, or diminish her in any way... I can't imagine even thinking this way- but the more I think on this, it seems to me, that there is a threshold of 'no return' that beyond this point, even if you stopped practicing tulpamancy rituals and meditation practices- the tulpa continues to exist. I imagine full time, full imposition translate to permanence- tulpa is a solid personality.  The assumption is, those who walked away and 'lost' their tulpas experienced 'loss' because they didn't go beyond this threshold... And if this threshold exists, wouldn't that be the measure for or of success? Full sentience, full time, regardless of 'host' interaction of activity.

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In my experience, even characters I created never seem to lose potency once they are at a point that they're talking to me outside of dialogue. That's dozens of characters. The concept of the character is very lightweight (as even we all are) and hard to forget. If you 'forget' them, ignore them, never speak to them, deny them, doubt them, then eventually you could treat them as an intrusive thought.

 

Someone like Joy, developed in 2012, she spoke to me within the span of writing her first book, she has three, but she was effectively,  and continues to be, 'in stasis until needed' but she also 'pops in' from time to time as if she's paying attention, so it's a very light sleep and she wakes when anything triggers her fancy or ire.

 

Ren had zero books written about her, we just let her stay when she 'walked-in' but her strength and will was felt in the first few days. I can't literally think about anything cat related without her waking up. I don't force her much if at all, she just interacts with us whenever, and she's advancing just fine. She's been in my hypnagogic visions and voices, so she's fully capable of interacting on her own.

 

She isn't here all day like Ashley, Dashie, and Misha are.

 

Could you forget you had a hand? If it was chopped off, you'd live the rest of your life remembering you had one because it was with you and helped you every day for years. Losing a mature tulpa would be akin to that. You'd have to work pretty hard to keep them from popping up. Denial or doubt would be your only real tools I bet.

 

As far as some systems vs others, I think it's a matter of interest. If you're fully passionate about something, you tend to learn it faster, think of it more, and enjoy it more.

 

I have to add though, don't compare yourself to other systems, everyone is different. What I mean is, if I didn't have passion in it, myself, I wouldn't have gotten far, that is my point. A relative comparison to yourself. Some tasks feel like work, others you look forward to, the ones you are passionate about will get more of your attention.

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Seems to depend on the system how they work, it doesn't seem systems where tulpas relied on their host's attention to be active tend to ever reach a point where that isn't the case. Similarly for many systems where the tulpas are "permanently active" it doesn't seem like the host was particularly skilled/practiced in tulpamancy, that's just sort of how they work. Though they may have other imaginative/creative skills that lent themselves to that happening, I guess. I'm also not sure if the average tulpa can really "develop" this skill - most cases I know it seems more like the host just creates a strong habit of involving their tulpa in their life, or at least talking to them frequently, and I'm not sure that's the same thing as the tulpa being active on their own.

 

What explains the first sentence? Tulpa protocols are simply that, right? I mean, yes, I hear, and agree, there seems to be a spectrum of results... But shouldn't there be a place where people move beyond 'pretending' playing tulpa, to achieving actual results, to WOW, mystical level experience?

 

I guess I am trying to sort 'doubters' or people who feel like, 'this is silly, pretend' and want to walk away. If they have this level of doubt, (speculating) they're at a place where it takes so much energy to sustain that they're tired, and if they walk away it's over, tulpamancy becomes a passing fad they tried, but failed to achieve? How does one have a WOW moment and walk away, and if you've reached wow are you at a threshold of no return, that should be that. or is 'wow' the place you get spooked and say 'done!' ??? I can almost see a 'spooked' moment where someone locks down on stuff and blocks interaction with internal other, but that doesn't mean something internal doesn't exist, that just means your compartmentalization is excellent... Which also mean, 'locking' down should also be a teachable skill, so that those who are so vulnerable to creating 'other' that every time they fart a new sentient tulpa emerges can have some relief.

 

I think there is something missing in the guide or process. Or, people seriously aren't attending to the level of initial attention, energy, and time that must be put into this to go from non-existent to 'done' tulpa is here to stay.

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Whoops.. I somehow totally misread the point of this thread (I was very distracted at the time, the first post alone took me like five minutes to write) - I thought it was about tulpa self-sustaining activity! As opposed to going inactive. Not about flat out dissipation. I don't even really know what to say, I've never really been so off the mark that my posts were just rendered pointless. Can we like, remove those? Really sorry to have to ask that, but I messed up. If a mod does do that, you can just keep this post and I'll edit it myself later.

 

Writing the rest of this (on-topic) post now-

 

I think on some level or to some extent, not-quite developed tulpas and developed tulpas are the same thing. The difference is, when someone gives up tulpamancy, they employ the common method of dissipation of just never thinking of/interacting with their tulpa again. For all we know the tulpas are never permanently gone as in removed, but because they're never brought up again, they may as well be. So is there a point of no return - emotionally/by one's investment, sure, but in the tulpa's actual existence, I don't think so? It doesn't matter how developed your tulpa is, if you never think of them again they might as well no longer exist. Whether they actually "dissipate" (so as to not be brought back even if you do think of them) may depend on just how developed they were, yes.

 

But on the topic I was previously writing about - if a tulpa does manage to become self-sustaining (which is not necessarily a skill I think all systems can reasonably obtain, it seems like systems are predisposed to having that ability) in their own right, that would certainly be a "point of no return". It seems one often feared/worried about by newbies or people first learning about tulpamancy, but incredibly uncommon. More often I think what we see (I mean.. we don't.. but I have) is less tulpas being self-sustaining and more tulpa activity being a habit, which is more on the host's end. While someone meaning to give up tulpamancy may have trouble dissipating their tulpa if they've somehow developed that habit (and it's not an easy one to develop), I wouldn't quite call it a point-of-no-return because habits can be broken just as they can be made.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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Memory seems to be the most important indicator of keeping a Tulpa or in our case a Gray alive. Cat and I try to write down what the Grays do and how they behave because otherwise important things about them become lost. If you don't let a thoughtform develop and you forget the memory of them, then dissipation is complete. If they are re-remembered, then there is a chance they will re-emerge.

 

I think the memories are important because they not only preserve sensory information but also presence and emotions at the time. Memories also get labels like "me" , "Cat" , "Blue" , etc. along with other labels like "scary" or "school" and that can also trigger a thoughtform in stasis. Preserve the trigger, preserve the thoughtform.

 

If there are no memories left, whether forgotten or overwritten, then the Tulpa has little chance of survival.

I'm Ranger, GrayTheCat's cobud (tulpa), and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff. I go by Rosalin or Ronan sometimes. You can call me Roz but please don't call me Ron.

My other headmates have their own account now.

 

If I missed seeing your art, please PM/DM me!

Blog | Not So Temporary Log | Switching Log | Yay! | Bre Translator | Art Thread

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Well, for me, a relative newcomer to the practice, with so far very erratic results varying from amazing full imposition, to long periods of no, nothing, nada, permanence or at least predicatable results, is my desired outcome, and I will work hard to obtain it. I have great passion for my tulpas, but then, I am a passionate person with great passion for life and love. If we are working to obtain a psychological result. It should be obtainable. If we are talking magic, then it most likely is not going to be either permanent or predictable, as that is the nature of magic.

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What explains the first sentence? Tulpa protocols are simply that, right? I mean, yes, I hear, and agree, there seems to be a spectrum of results... But shouldn't there be a place where people move beyond 'pretending' playing tulpa, to achieving actual results, to WOW, mystical level experience?

 

I guess I am trying to sort 'doubters' or people who feel like, 'this is silly, pretend' and want to walk away. If they have this level of doubt, (speculating) they're at a place where it takes so much energy to sustain that they're tired, and if they walk away it's over, tulpamancy becomes a passing fad they tried, but failed to achieve? How does one have a WOW moment and walk away, and if you've reached wow are you at a threshold of no return, that should be that. or is 'wow' the place you get spooked and say 'done!' ??? I can almost see a 'spooked' moment where someone locks down on stuff and blocks interaction with internal other, but that doesn't mean something internal doesn't exist, that just means your compartmentalization is excellent... Which also mean, 'locking' down should also be a teachable skill, so that those who are so vulnerable to creating 'other' that every time they fart a new sentient tulpa emerges can have some relief.

 

I think there is something missing in the guide or process. Or, people seriously aren't attending to the level of initial attention, energy, and time that must be put into this to go from non-existent to 'done' tulpa is here to stay.

 

I agree with this, there's no super advanced guides, there's entry level guides we all read from the beginning and nothing beyond that, it's almost like, once you switch and/or impose or fully immerse, that's it. Of course those can take years, or you might be satisfied that you've done everything within a year. So more 'end-game' or quality of life guides are needed, those are the kind of guides I look forward to writing, the ones that challenge you to reach beyond your boundaries and really open up the power of tulpamancy. They're people, we know this, but they're existence and health is just a starting point to unlocking and changing the architecture of your mind. They're like us, but together we can do so much more, a higher level view of the nature of life as a human. It is exciting and daunting, like some at some point can pretty much own their experience creation, guide their mood, change their own personality, remove phobias, this sort of things that don't seem possible and you never want to tell new tulpamancers about because they might be disappointed, that's a disservice in my mind, but I won't argue it further. There's a very secluded and elite inner courtyard of tulpamancy, it takes effort to go, effort to stay, and effort to defend. These guides would probably not get through GAT. I see where we are now as the 'old days' when these gates are in some ways sealed, but we're getting through the gates, it's as easy as time and effort, but that's the difficulty of touting them as well. If people don't want to spend months to get basic imposition, then they certainly don't want to dedicate years of free time to get fully immersive wonderlands or personality change (especially if someone would say that's impossible).

 

I mention all that because my tulpas are special to me, they seem different than an average vanilla tulpa, but that doesn't mean your system mates can't be as special, we're all humans, if you're reading this you're human, however this works, we can both do it. I'm never backing down from that idea that anyone can do it if they really never give up.

 

My tulpas talk to me now, I don't have to remind them to do that, I hear them chattering away with tulpish like a trio of hens clucking away and cackling at what I'm doing and thinking of. Not in an offensive way, in a very treasured and living way, very much like sitting in a room with three of your best friends and they're free to do whatever while you work. They can be quiet if I'm working hard, but they aren't always, and sometimes Misha will just wrap her arms around me and ask why I'm doing a certain thing a certain way, and I love that. This is a place anyone can get to if they choose. So choice is a big part of it. Not literally everyone of course, some people (tulpas) genuinely want to be left alone at times, (while in the body, switched in).

 

I presume some might get to the end of the guides and just go on with their life together, we have plenty of examples of that. Some might never have really believed what they had or never got that 'wow' feeling simply because of that doubt or the lack of drive to go further and basically gave up.

 

Some among us now have tulpas they don't talk to much, I don't fear they'll be dissipated. Might they slip more toward being dependent, that's possible, still, I don't think it's likely for a mature tulpa to do that. Mostly, they are who they are. They're invested in your life and making a life for themselves or they're not. Not everyone wants to do what you chose to do for a living or where you want to live or whatever. A lot have no choice in the matter, being born in that situation.

 

If you're enjoying and interacting with your system, if everyone is happy and content, then you should never worry about this. If it's a struggle, a job, a nagging guilt, then you're likely to give up like with anything else. Still, the tulpa knows this and either accepts that or fights for it. I don't know, people are very complex and different from each other every scenario is probably unique.

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All of the responses helped me come to the idea that I initiated this post due to an emotional reaction to a poster wanting to quit. Am I mistaken that in the past if someone asked how to dissipate or kill a tulpa people responded emotionally? Not saying right or wrong, just saying strong emotions. I find discussing it disturbing, not rising to the level of discussing 'murder' but I am sorting whether it's due to the fact I tend to anthropomorphize too much, or I am sorting something concrete, which opens a flood gate to a whole bunch of other existential questions. Melian strikes me as one of the severest examples-denying accepting, and I don't understand the ambivalence given my perceived understanding of his 'level' of interaction; I don't understand doubter in general, either they have had genuine experiences or they are still in 'fake it till you make it'. FITYMI is not sustainable. Others have written about how their tulpas went away, and they're starting over, while others discuss how they had a tulpa return... I don't know what to make of this.

 

Lumi and Ranger, you echo a sentiment that I suspect, no- I will just say it- I don't think a tulpa can be dissipated, short of a lobotomy, but even that doesn't guarantee a thing, because brains can be resilient and recover things you would think went away after a stroke, etc.

 

Holodoc hits on another aspect, probably more true for beginning levels- intermittent activity with variable intensity... Clearly, Holodoc, you have had wow moments... Psychological explanation or magic, sustainability and increased interaction endurance seems like the logical next place to go from this... But this isn't describing a doubt! This is like, what, gold?! I suppose someone could just say, bother it's too much work and walk away at this point, but even in your PR, though your interaction may be episodic, that interaction is sophisticated- so much so I would be weary of interpreting the dialogue directly. The interaction pattern of tulpa and host may have unconscious vectors and anchors that carry meaning at various levels... A recommendation from Jung was never interpret meaning during the experience, in the experience just move literally, but after sort for metaphor... (Red Book I think.) The closest analogy is my old go to lucid dreaming one- I know I can lucid dream. I busted my ass to get that first one- that was a wow moment. After that, it became practice engaging consistently, and staying in the dream without waking myself up- i see tulpamancy as different. Staying in the 'zone' takes work and you get experiences, but at some point it clicks and its full on permanent all the time. (If sexual arousal is component for you, that might make it more difficult to sustain- forgive me if I am reading too much into your PR- the sexual component is definitely a part of my equation, as it been something I have personally struggled with since before puberty.)

 

OMG, yes, Bear! I hope this isn't a secret, elite club! I am so tired of secret clubs and knowledge and always being on the outside... tantalizing tidbits to get money and movement and then nothing! (I joke, but I think my money would have been better spent on 5 minute hookers.) Even in the Mason, there is just more levels of 'elite' and either I didn't rise high enough, or I was in the wrong group; every level up I found less knowledge, and fewer people interested in seeking more knowledge! I see tulpamancy as this bigger than life thing, opportunities for personal growth- whether that's psychologically or spiritually, frankly, I find the two terms synonymous, how can you not grow both of those aspects simultaneously?! And how did folks that were even minimally successful in creating a tulpa not have serious life change- enough to eliminate doubt and not call this practice 'silly' or not have such a profound sense of 'other' that thinking of 'stopping' the practice is an impossible thought?

 

And so, here's the next part of this existential deluge... What about Host permanence? At some point in the process, the interaction patterns that bond host and tulpas reinforce personality structures, because almost all systems evolve towards stability. (Assumption? Things need stability in order to continue- does this explain Holodocs intermittency problem? He can't see the new stability and so he falls back to previous set-point? (the world hates shamans!)) But even stability doesn't mean an absence of evolution. Just being successful at tulpamancy means by definition, the individual who engaged it changes. At some point, the old personality becomes so transformed it can no longer be considered the host/core personality. That person in effect is dying, or died, in favor of metamorphosis. Bear, you're no longer a grub becoming a butterfly, you're on target to becoming an Angel. Bear Angels! (Star Wars reference: "Stay on Target" "Just a little further.")

 

But if my conjecture, which Lumi and Ranger echo, is right then even 'old' you is still there, because you can access the memory of it- maybe even get old stimulus-response interaction, provided you can go dig up a coin and drop it in the coke machine, and there's still a soda in there... This new place, though, doesn't use money, and we probably don't drink soda.

 

So, why do I get upset if we have discussion on ending tulpas? I don't think it can be done, so I am not injured, and it's a reasonable discourse. People need to be able to address their concerns at all places on the map in this practice. AM I missing something else, other than the elite core group of people! Hello, people, I am knocking. :)

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The host is no different, and I'm not hurt or offended by anything any system decides to do within their own pervue.

 

If a member of the system is toxic, you could consider that one gangrenous, unsavable, to damaged to continue, and spreading, or simply unfit to lead. In these cases switching allows a permanent measure of protection for the rest of the system and body to continue. I say, excise the cancerous tumor if they can't be rehabilitated. Depersonalize monsters. No one has any right to shame or attack a system in a desperate state of self-preservation or self-protection. This is the teeth byhind my system laws, if you will not comply, you will eventually exhaust all mercy.

 

That aside, if your system consists of not-tulpas, there's no moral law governing whether you should interact with them at all. Clearly don't torture them, that's akin to self destructive behavior. Additionally, there's nothing at all wrong with an amicable split, temporary or otherwise. People change, we are talking about distinct people, so they might grow apart or lose interest in each other. Just because bear system is all lovey dovey, doesn't mean everyone has to be forever. It may so happen that the tulpa inherited the body and the host split for a spell. I just don't see a problem with this, at all, if it's amicable.

 

Next, I can see how a moon who never intended to be fully independent (on their own behest), wouldn't be interested or involved in those 'wow' moments regardless of how invested the host was. So yep, they might just go away and you start over.

 

Additionally, I believe that a young tulpa might change their perspective and return to a dependent state; I think it's entirely possible. At that point, they're a not-tulpa with no intention to grow. Again, not the host's fault, it's no one's fault.

 

The offensive scenario isn't at all offensive to me.

The host themselves might decide that the tulpa is a bother, they're not getting what they wanted out of the experience, and they decided to drop the whole thing. Well, that's their choice and no doubt hard-made so you can't know what was going on in their head and you can't know why the magic died, or if it was ever there, but that's their own personal life choice. Current body owner is 7/10th of the law. At any point, even years later, the 'magic' might return and its a win for everyone.

 

Even coming to an active forum and reporting disbelief and calling out for silliness isn't offensive to me, I consider it an opportunity to find weaknesses and patch holes in reasoning. Let's not get complacent, and a room of yes-men can easily group think they're way to failure.

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It's always been our thought that once a tulpa's both sentient and there's been some consistency to their existence, they can always be brought back even if forgotten. Though the consistency piece might not even be necessary. Really all that's necessary is that you actually remember them. I don't think sentience can be lost, if a tulpa's not sentient then it probably means they never were to begin with. Even if a tulpa hasn't been interacted with in a while and they've "deteriorated" some, it probably won't take long to get them back up to speed, the brain is very good at relearning things. 

 

Kinda for anyone really but particularly people who might be worried about their tulpa deteriorating or something later on, I'd highly recommend writing down and logging things about your tulpa, having them write things about themself, etc. That way, if you ever did forget your tulpa and returned to them later on only to find things have been lost to time, you can read the stuff and it'll come back to you easier. This kinda happened with us with Paul (1/2 of Junio). HJP was always more dominant and always kinda felt more developed, because we had forgotten a lot about Paul and his personality. Reading stuff the host had written about him when he was younger, though, helped Paul to reclaim what was lost. 

 

However, it's also likely the tulpa might not care who they used to be and just wants to find who they are now, that's what happened with Luxio. He doesn't relate to his old self at all anymore, and he looks back on it like an adult might look back on their cringey teenage years, heh. Reading old stuff written by him didn't really help him since he doesn't want to be that person anymore. However this has also caused some doubt that he thinks he's not the real Luxio, along with the fact that he was in stasis so long in the first place. The important thing to know is that human personalities just aren't meant to go into dormancy for so long, so it can be hard to integrate the whole [this was me then] [this is me now], but one should still remember that it's still you/the same tulpa, even if it's hard to fully grasp it and even if they've changed.

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