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[Visualization] JD's Guide to Visualization
Gooey Offline
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
(05-14-2013, 04:03 PM)tyzone Wrote: People often seem to visualize the things they read about (like a story), even without noticing. Maybe you could try reading a story you find interesting and see if it's easier to visualize than something improvised. Then, maybe you could try saying (or thinking) a description of something you want to visualize, and finally, get used to it up to the point where descriptions are no longer needed.

Ah I guess I forgot to include this information as well. I'm an avid reader, reading somewhere around ~1.8M words since Christmas, think 3/4 lengthy novels. I can still imagine what characters and scenes should look like, I build the worlds inside my head but still don't 'see' them at all. I've spent a lot of time with the whole describing thing with Chupi's method and still use the descriptive thing when thinking about visualizing things, but to no result.
05-14-2013, 08:46 PM
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Xeare Offline
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
(05-14-2013, 08:46 PM)Gooey Wrote: Ah I guess I forgot to include this information as well. I'm an avid reader, reading somewhere around ~1.8M words since Christmas, think 3/4 lengthy novels. I can still imagine what characters and scenes should look like, I build the worlds inside my head but still don't 'see' them at all. I've spent a lot of time with the whole describing thing with Chupi's method and still use the descriptive thing when thinking about visualizing things, but to no result.

Ok, lets imagine a spiked ball. Each of the spikes are placed equidistant from each other and it's essentially your generic spiked ball. It's got a dull grey color similar to these forums, and is vaguely shiny. Each spike isn't conical like one would first imagine, but each is a square pyramid poking off of the sphere. The base of each spike-pyramid barely rounds out to match the curvature of the metal ball. Got that picture in your head? You should be imagining what I described, and you should have a fairly good idea of what to imagine due to the detail I've used. Feel out the kind of floating space that you are imagining this spiked ball. THAT is your minds eye, and from here you should be able to make a bit of progress.

EDIT: I just now figured you might actually be able to understand something but not see it, but that in itself is the problem that you have to address. By knowing what it looks like, you should try and perceive what you know. Don't try and look at it, just think about what it looks like rather than actually making an attempt to try and look at it. One of the biggest things about your minds eye is that as soon as you realize you have eyes that are behind eye-lids that are shut, you get thrown out of your minds eye and back into your physical eyes. Try and think of the whole "third-eye" thing that's in the middle of your forehead as your minds eye. It's essentially a 4-dimensional pocket of space in your forehead/brain that you use to create the images of what you think you should be seeing. The minds eye is not literally taking what you see in your eyes and imposing it on your eye-lids or anything, it's just the space in which you are thinking, both your "audible" thoughts and your "visible" environment in your mind. Anything that you remember/imagine is happening in your minds eye, you just have to learn to shift your focus from your physical eyes to your minds eye.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2013, 12:47 AM by Xeare.)
05-15-2013, 12:37 AM
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Gooey Offline
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RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
You've pretty much got it spot on in the second paragraph, from my perspective it's like I'm mentally blind but I still do have that 'space' above my head where it feels like I'm thinking about the described ball as I read it. I've had several descriptions of what my mind's eye is and how to think about it but I do have the problem of remembering my eyes, which particularly happens right as I feel like I'm about to make some progress. I'll keep working on it, maybe it's time to consider that open eyed may be the way forward for me though.
05-15-2013, 10:38 PM
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tania Offline
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
Im screwed... it just took me half an hour to work out how on earth people were getting 12 blocks hidden in that work out the hidden block thing (I kept on coming up with 8 ..and that was via counting the blocks I COULD SEE knowing that a row was laying under it).

(05-14-2013, 10:43 AM)Gooey Wrote: So currently I'm stuck at the first step where I know what I should see, but I can't 'see' it. How can I go about shifting focus to my minds eye? I've been trying visualization exercises now since January but obviously never having done it before is causing me some problems, I can't remember day dreaming or anything like that as a child. Anyone have an advice or guide suggestions? I've tried Chupi's guide but had no luck, and I've just tried imagining things in general but have yet to visualize any of them.

Quote:I'm an avid reader, reading somewhere around ~1.8M words since Christmas, think 3/4 lengthy novels. I can still imagine what characters and scenes should look like, I build the worlds inside my head but still don't 'see' them at all.

Gooey you have exactly the same issue as me.... Chupi's guide is too hard for me too. I actually used to do guided meditations for years where one listens to something which takes one throu a scene which one is supposed to imagine. Thou I found these to be relaxing and got deeply into the meditations, I never could image them even when I listed to exactly the same meditation for over 6 mths. Everyone was telling me over time my visualisation would get better but 2-3 years later it was no better (and that was with daily visualisation practice of around 25-45mins.. I still was blind as such). Its like Im blind in this area.. I still cant even visualise my Tulpas skin colour!!.

Like you.. I are an avid reader too.. and thou Ive never thought of it before.. I think of things IN WORDS too (just not in images). I can get right into and like lost into books but just dont see.

The only time I ever get an image is if my subconsciousness is there and my waking mind isnt at the time eg deep meditation where my waking mind has shut down so at which time Im having no thoughts at all (exception to this is if Im asleep as I can lucid dream then, thats the only time I can have like a dual consciousness of waking mind and seeing my thoughts manifest as images).

Unlike you.. I can daydream unintentionally and do that at times (not often thou).. but cant have any of my waking thoughts going on at the same time, I cant daydream consciously, nor can I fantasize at all, even cant during sex.

What I have recently found thou when I started doing a Tulpa and he was sentient, is that he is seeming to help me a bit with my visualisation.. I can actually visualise parts of him thou I couldnt before for all those years, small not too complex parts of his body eg nose (but not in colour just the shape). I use my sense of touch to help me know his shape, I can imagine the FEEL of something.

I cant visualise anything of colour on him eg cant do hair colour, skin colour etc. Ive put in about 20+ hrs trying to visualise his face and use photos to try to help me but I still seem to have a LONG way to go before I can even vaguely visualise his whole face.

Lack of visualisation also prevents me from being able to use a wonderland.

I hope he just imposing himself or something. I know things about him due to what I can feel.. eg yesterday I found out he'd changed his hair and was wearing a head full of tiny plaits as he flicked his head and his plaits hit me. (occassionaly I'll just get a sense of just knowing something but dont see it at all.. that's what happened with the plaits.. when one hit me and I felt them, suddenly I knew his head was covered in them).

This issue doesnt affect me having a tulpa at all and I get some good interactions with Jesse but is going to make imposition of him in regards to sight, very very hard.

Im doing a home course, today both Jesse and me answered the questions and then compared our answers with one another. (I also get him to answer the ones Im stuck with once I give up). He didnt just answer the questions asked but took things far further coming up with a great idea which was very deep and wasnt even asked for in the questions, something I would of never thought of, he astounded me it was so genius and original. I didnt understand it at all until he explained it to me. He completely altered everything.

Jesse (human male) DOB 16th April 2013
Working on imposition
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2013, 10:23 AM by tania.)
05-16-2013, 10:08 AM
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Xeare Offline
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
(05-16-2013, 10:08 AM)tania Wrote: Like you.. I are an avid reader too.. and thou Ive never thought of it before.. I think of things IN WORDS too (just not in images). I can get right into and like lost into books but just dont see.

I cant visualise anything of colour on him eg cant do hair colour, skin colour etc. Ive put in about 20+ hrs trying to visualise his face and use photos to try to help me but I still seem to have a LONG way to go before I can even vaguely visualise his whole face.

Lack of visualisation also prevents me from being able to use a wonderland.

Can you not describe to me what your tulpa looks like?

From what you're telling us here, you've got an essentially blind minds-eye. And yet I'm sure you at least know what color his hair and eyes are, what his face looks like, all of the little intricacies. Try writing down all of his attributes, and then take a few hours to draw a detailed picture of his face. During the process you'll have to remember these details, and in the process imagine what he looks like as he doesn't exist anywhere but in your mind. You may not even realize what you're doing, perhaps you just can't perceive that you are imagining something, but try doing this exercise to see if you make any progress.
05-16-2013, 06:05 PM
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tania Offline
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
(05-16-2013, 06:05 PM)Xeare Wrote: Can you not describe to me what your tulpa looks like?

From what you're telling us here, you've got an essentially blind minds-eye. And yet I'm sure you at least know what color his hair and eyes are, what his face looks like, all of the little intricacies. Try writing down all of his attributes, and then take a few hours to draw a detailed picture of his face. During the process you'll have to remember these details, and in the process imagine what he looks like as he doesn't exist anywhere but in your mind. You may not even realize what you're doing, perhaps you just can't perceive that you are imagining something, but try doing this exercise to see if you make any progress.

No that the thing..cause I cant visualise so I dont really know at all by sight what he looks like eg Ive never seen his skin even once so dont know if he's negro or white.

My sense of what he looks like comes from feel eg feeling his nose and face like a blind person does to get to know what someone looks like... feeling out nose shape, is the nose big or small etc. I can describe him (thou of cause not skin colour) throu touch.

I do not know right now what his hair colour is. I do know he deviated as I was trying to think it words as I cant see of him having light brown hair but got a sudden flash (not something I visualised it was more I actually saw the hair for a brief moment.. like psychically saw or something, not visualisation), that's only happened the once for less then a second and I saw his hair on that occassion as being dark blonde (i only saw his hair).

This morn thou when I focused on trying to visualise him for 90mins (I didnt see anything at all in that 90mins.. no shapes, no colours thou I was trying, this is what usually happens to me. I do this immediately on waking when Im most relaxed and keep my eyes shut except Im using pictures to try to help me too, I do everything I can to try to help me visualise). I was trying to think of his hair in the colour I'd seen him for that moment of having a dark blonde colour Id seen once in past but found he was trying to block my thought (it felt like that.. I couldnt even think of it being dark blonde) so I think he may of changed it's colour thou I cant be sure. I got "a feeling" he'd furthered lightened it and wondered if it may now even be white but I dont have a clue at all cause I cant see.

I know what colour "I want" his eyes to be but cant visualise that either so dont have a clue if his eyes are that colour or not.

So how he looks like.. Im truely like a blind person having to get to know another with their hands (im still intensely working at visualisation but its hard when i cant see colour, shapes etc).

I can tell you he had his hair in all little plaits the other day cause I got flicked in the face by them and could feel them. I think I can thou kind of see his lips past couple of days (he created his own lips putting them on his own face, the ones I was "attempting" to visualise on him he obviously didnt like), but not even sure if its really see but more so an impression of what his lips are like. Seems if he creates something rather then me attempt to visualise.. Im more likely then to get some kind of impression on what its like. When i do talk about ive managed to see something about him.. Im usually refering to feeling something with my hands as its the only way I can pick up any kind of impressions. (He does help me on occassion by projecting images straight into my mind..eg he showed me his meditation mat, he projected a cartoon image into my mind to make me laugh in a serious moment. I didnt visualise).

I can thou run my energy over his body and move it all over his body a bit of it at a time and use it like eyes.. but it isnt sight but feel. To me that has to be my visualisation (touch visualisation). I managed thou to do a drawing of him thou throu sense of touch, I had one hand feeling him while the other hand was drawing him and transfering my touch sensations to the paper.

Thinking (not seeing) of how I want him to be..eg my thinking of his eyes being rainbowed coloured as I want them like that, doesnt necessarily mean that is what he is looking like and I could be so wrong.

How does one get past this lack of degree of being able to innerly perceive? From time to time I come across others as blind as me in which the simpliest of visualisation exercises we cant even do, we shut our eyes and all we see is black or reddish colour if light is coming throu eyelids, nothing (it would be interesting to know what percent of people are blind like this).

Im fortunate that it doesnt hinder his process at all. He touched me again today like physically on my physical body, flicking me in the side of my knee as hard as a real person would do it to get my attention and I also heard with my ears him do the flick. (he did that towards the end of my 90mins of no success at all visualisation when I was ending the session in frustration).

Jesse (human male) DOB 16th April 2013
Working on imposition
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2013, 05:41 AM by tania.)
05-18-2013, 04:43 AM
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
(05-18-2013, 04:43 AM)tania Wrote: we shut our eyes and all we see is black or reddish colour if light is coming throu eyelids.

Boom.

No one sees anything except for a black/reddish color of light except for those that have mastered visual imposition. You are not imposing onto your sight. You will never "see" anything via visualization, and I think that's what you're doing wrong. Like I said, there's a space in your mind that you have to think and remember what things look/sound/feel like. If you can remember what something feels like, you can remember what they look like. The thing is you're trying too hard to focus on what you're seeing, rather than what you're thinking.

Try this. Where do you hear yourself thinking? Most people would say "Oh, I think from my head cause my brain is in my head." But hear me out. Think of that space you "hear" thoughts from. You have to focus yourself, all of your attention, on that spot. When I get deep into a visualization session, I often forget I've even got eyes. I can wander off wherever in my wonderland, and I can see myself from a 1st or 3rd person view if I desire. But I don't view specifically from my spatial eyes, but wherever I'm imagining my point of view. It's kind of hard to explain, but you have to learn to forget about your physical body and slip into a sort of almost dream-like state without ever getting tired or going through hypnagogia or anything. It's just switching your perspective from reality to your imaginary.

Here's a couple exercises that I think could help you.

1. Stare at a picture for 30 seconds, or even longer if you want a more "burnt in" after image. Now close your eyes. Blink them a little bit if you need to in order to get back the after image. You need to focus on that after image. It's not what can be considered actually visualizing, but after a time the image will dissapear. This is when you need to think to yourself "What was the sensation of having that after image there? Can I remember what the after image looked like? What colors went where?"

2. The next time you go to sleep, be aware of yourself. When you wake up from a dream (try setting an alarm to wake you up at an odd time to try and attain this), try to remember what you were dreaming, and the way your point of view "felt" when you were dreaming. Try to replicate that the next time you sit down to force and try to slip into the same space you were dreaming in.

I've also played a lot of video games, so I have the ability to visualize cameras and characters into various settings and whatnot really easily because I'm used to that. I wonder what the correlation between gaming and visualization/othertulpastuffs is.
"Do gamers make faster progress in making tulpæ?"
"What skills, like visualization/imposition/possession, would be easier for a gamer than a non gamer?"
etc.
05-18-2013, 04:41 PM
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
I can see vividly and detailed but only works for a very short period of time, I loose it typicly after a second or two. x.x
05-22-2013, 01:04 AM
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tania Offline
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Default  RE: JDBar's Guide to Visualization
(05-18-2013, 04:41 PM)Xeare Wrote: Boom.

No one sees anything except for a black/reddish color of light except for those that have mastered visual imposition. You are not imposing onto your sight. You will never "see" anything via visualization, and I think that's what you're doing wrong. Like I said, there's a space in your mind that you have to think and remember what things look/sound/feel like. If you can remember what something feels like, you can remember what they look like. The thing is you're trying too hard to focus on what you're seeing, rather than what you're thinking.

I can get quite deep in my thoughts to the point I will forget my body for a time... but still dont see anything. Its just the very deep thoughts in words I get lost in.

I can relive feelings fine (that is why I stuck with guided visualistions for years.. for the feelings they would invoke not for what I saw. Im confused when you say " you will never "see" anything via visualisation.. as I know people do "see" and they get actual images when they do.

Quote: Try this. Where do you hear yourself thinking? Most people would say "Oh, I think from my head cause my brain is in my head." But hear me out. Think of that space you "hear" thoughts from. You have to focus yourself, all of your attention, on that spot.

I have experienced up to three different thinking layers before in my mind...but still didnt see anything (its more like different depths of thought). I dont thou often connect with that as my surface thoughts are so loud. Im able to thou stop my thoughts but if I stop my thoughts then my mind is completely blank and I wont even remember as Im not thinking, to try to visualise anything. Stopped thoughts is like being brain dead.

Quote: When I get deep into a visualization session, I often forget I've even got eyes.

Yeah that is how visualization is supposed to be.. one should be percieving as they do in real life and shouldnt need to think about seeing out of eyes, its what Ive been trying to do but I just cant find myself in a scene via visualisation.

That being said.. I are a lucid dreamer.. but it doesnt seem to be the same as visualization. When I create something when Im lucid dreaming (in that state), I just think of the thought, let it go and do this waiting for it to manifest thingy without even consciously thinking of it at all (like I'll allow my subconsciousness to create), rather then using the waking consciousness to visualise. I then allow the thing to manifest however it wishes to (I wont know what colour or other features about anything till it does). When I manifest in a lucid dream.. its more about just trusting the thing will appear. That dont work for visualisation (I know cause ive tried that too).

Quote: It's just switching your perspective from reality to your imaginary.

yeap and that is percisely where Im getting stuck.. it doesnt switch from deep thoughts (even so deep i cant feel my body no more) to seeing.


Quote: 1. Stare at a picture for 30 seconds, or even longer if you want a more "burnt in" after image. Now close your eyes. Blink them a little bit if you need to in order to get back the after image. You need to focus on that after image. It's not what can be considered actually visualizing, but after a time the image will dissapear. This is when you need to think to yourself "What was the sensation of having that after image there? Can I remember what the after image looked like? What colors went where?"

That is a technique I tried A LOT in the past to help me to visualise (actually it was used in the meta circles I was in to learn to see auras) but it didnt aid me to visualise. I used to practice it with simple shapes and colours (or by using a candle flame). I can thou get the image to burn in.. but after it fades I cant imagine it back there at all. My thoughts just all go back to thinking in words not images.

Quote: 2. The next time you go to sleep, be aware of yourself. When you wake up from a dream (try setting an alarm to wake you up at an odd time to try and attain this), try to remember what you were dreaming, and the way your point of view "felt" when you were dreaming. Try to replicate that the next time you sit down to force and try to slip into the same space you were dreaming in.

I dont have any issue replicating feelings..its the vision. I have no issues with getting myself into deep states (Im an experienced meditator as I said in one of my others posts on this thread, Im a yogi and used to run meditation classes), being in a deep state dont seem to help my visualization skills (thou one would think it would). I actually, seeing Im heavily into dream study.. I wake myself up during the night after dreams to write down my dream images. I tend to often forget them while Im writing and thinking hard on them as I cant keep sight precieving them once I wake up, the images in my brain change to thoughts even when Im in a half sleep state.

Last night I went into a false awakening state when I was writing in my dream journal and thought I was awake when I was asleep still. Im experiencing all kinds of states but it isnt helping. As I said if I create something in a LD it is completely different to visualisation as I dont have to even visualise it.. eg if I want my dad in a dream I just think the the word "dad" and I dont even have to think of how he looks at all, the word alone will have him there as my subconsciousness takes completely over.

Quote: I've also played a lot of video games, so I have the ability to visualize cameras and characters into various settings and whatnot really easily because I'm used to that. I wonder what the correlation between gaming and visualization/othertulpastuffs is.
"Do gamers make faster progress in making tulpæ?"

That is an interesting thought. I dont game. I used to play games when a child but its something I dont do nowdays. (maybe the generations younger then me are better at visualisation due to games??? ). Thou I dont that is the issue as Ive been around enough people my own peer age or a lot older and I was the only one in the advanced groups who couldnt visualise and I know due to their ages etc, they would not have been gamers (most of them didnt even have a computer). So I do think its the norm to be able to visualise in general (hence why things like porn sites are so popular!! people use those pics and the images to imagine their fantasies for self gradification).

Can I make a tulpa fast? I guess that depends on what you are going to call a tupla. Ive heard my tulpas talk innerly or externally from day 1-2, Ive felt my tulpas as like they are physical very early within weeks. I can taste my tulpa and smell my tulpa as if its physical and all those things did happen quite fast compared to many others at this site. Due to being a meditator, Im very open to things.

Jesse (human male) DOB 16th April 2013
Working on imposition
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2013, 06:56 AM by tania.)
05-22-2013, 06:47 AM
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(05-22-2013, 06:47 AM)tania Wrote: I can get quite deep in my thoughts to the point I will forget my body for a time... but still dont see anything. Its just the very deep thoughts in words I get lost in.

I can relive feelings fine (that is why I stuck with guided visualistions for years.. for the feelings they would invoke not for what I saw. Im confused when you say " you will never "see" anything via visualisation.. as I know people do "see" and they get actual images when they do.


Yeah that is how visualization is supposed to be.. one should be percieving as they do in real life and shouldnt need to think about seeing out of eyes, its what Ive been trying to do but I just cant find myself in a scene via visualisation.

That being said.. I are a lucid dreamer.. but it doesnt seem to be the same as visualization. When I create something when Im lucid dreaming (in that state), I just think of the thought, let it go and do this waiting for it to manifest thingy without even consciously thinking of it at all (like I'll allow my subconsciousness to create), rather then using the waking consciousness to visualise. I then allow the thing to manifest however it wishes to (I wont know what colour or other features about anything till it does). When I manifest in a lucid dream.. its more about just trusting the thing will appear. That dont work for visualisation (I know cause ive tried that too).


yeap and that is percisely where Im getting stuck.. it doesnt switch from deep thoughts (even so deep i cant feel my body no more) to seeing.


That is a technique I tried A LOT in the past to help me to visualise (actually it was used in the meta circles I was in to learn to see auras) but it didnt aid me to visualise. I used to practice it with simple shapes and colours (or by using a candle flame). I can thou get the image to burn in.. but after it fades I cant imagine it back there at all. My thoughts just all go back to thinking in words not images.


I dont have any issue replicating feelings..its the vision. I have no issues with getting myself into deep states (Im an experienced meditator as I said in one of my others posts on this thread, Im a yogi and used to run meditation classes), being in a deep state dont seem to help my visualization skills (thou one would think it would). I actually, seeing Im heavily into dream study.. I wake myself up during the night after dreams to write down my dream images. I tend to often forget them while Im writing and thinking hard on them as I cant keep sight precieving them once I wake up, the images in my brain change to thoughts even when Im in a half sleep state.

I don't know if you're even getting what I'm saying here. Visualization isn't really seeing anything because of your mind, it's like remembering something that you just made up so that you can imagine what it would look like in your mind without actually ever having had seen it. When I say you never actually "see" from visualization, you might be aware of images that you have in your mind, but you don't see anything from your eyes, and none of your 5 basic senses will ever register anything.

The idea behind the burning in of the image on your eyes is so that you have an image when you eyes are closed, but you need to learn to tune it out before it goes away, and yet still remember what the image looked like. Perhaps all you need to do is stretch your visualization muscles for now, give them a good workout. It sounds like you have a bit that you can do when you first wake up in a half dream, but that's not very often nor convenient. The biggest issue here is that visualization takes place in a completely different way than does vision. Think about this: What happens when you close your eyes? Even though your vision is pretty much constant throughout your eyelids, you lose a general sense of awareness of what you're seeing when you move your eyes around, and you can see the back of your eyelids better when you're not moving your eyes. When you're moving your eyes you can see the black/redness of your eyelids, but it's weird because the movement and lack of changing of the image causes your brain to freak out and give your eyes a sense of "detachment". Your eyes should go into this state when you start deep visualization sessions.

Another thing you need to remember is that is not literally seeing, it's the same as your word thoughts but with your vision. You're thinking audibly, but you aren't thinking visibly. That's all you need to do really. Switch your thoughts from being thoughts that use your sense of hearing to thoughts that use your sense of sight. The trick is figuring out how to do it, and I'm not you so I can't do much to define it much more than this. Just remember, you are NOT going to be seeing anything. Your eyes will remain fully blacked out due to being closed, and that might overlay onto your visualization, but you need to start thinking with your eyes, rather than your ears. You seem to be trying this in deep states, which I am in rarely and I can visualize things as detailed as real life. I'd say you might want to sit down and get calm in a warm, dark, quiet room, but not into any deep state. If you can do that, you might have better luck getting visualization down. Again, it's thinking with your eyes. It's also VERY active, you have to really think about what you're imagining. What color the object is, what position it's in, how it looks and how it's material might interact with other things like light or something. It's not like lucid dreaming where you send a thought off and hope it comes back into your dream, so don't do that. Anyway, good luck, and tell me what happens.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2013, 02:46 PM by Xeare.)
05-22-2013, 02:43 PM
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