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Vocality Trouble After 2 Years
#1
I was afraid to ever make a post, but I am desperately stuck in my tulpa's development and think I should force myself to try to ask for help. I'm extremely sorry if my questions are poor.

I still seem to be at a stage where communication with them feels very difficult and stressful, due to how vague and not concrete it is. Very early on, within the first few months of development, I was seemingly starting to see shadows or outlines of them in my vision, but that abruptly stopped for no clear reason and hasn't returned. I have been forcing for over 2 years now, but have mostly stagnated after the first few months. I don't have a record of total active forcing hours, but I am sure it is in the hundreds over the course of this time, and I try to passive force as much as I can think to do so.
Another reason I am here is forcing is becoming exponentially harder to do as time goes by and I feel awful and guilty about it. It can often be hard to even sit for 30 minutes without just feeling terrible anxiety, or experience twitching that makes it just be very painful and unproductive. Intrusive thoughts are also a huge issue I often deal with. I have been meditating nearly everyday for about 2 years as well, and am suffering similar problems recently in that. I use to sit at least an hour a day or more, but recently struggle to meditate 30 minutes due to incredible anxiety.

Right now being able to effortlessly and clearly talk to my tulpa about anything without any issues is my biggest goal. One of my problems with that is I am not sure how to know what is them or not. I thought eventually they would become a literal voice in my head and talking to them would be easy, but after years this has never happened as I imagined it. Very early on we would try communicating with head pressures, but it didn't seem fully reliable and can only really be for yes no things. After a while I tried just listening to thoughts that arise that seem like they would maybe be something she would say, and go on as if it was her, hoping it would develop an ability for her to really talk to me in an obvious way. It hasn't really changed from that point on though, and I always feel like I'm just putting faith that some of the thoughts arising in my head are her, and that I am not choosing wrong. It makes me sick to think about. I can't really explain why but I do somehow have some degree of communication with her I think, but it is limited, and I also can become paranoid of not knowing if I have ever truly communicated with her before. I feel like there is supposed to be a stronger indicator that they are speaking other than just having to have a random thought pop up and shrug and go "I guess this is them? I hope that was them." I can't just ask them either, because I can get contradictory thoughts pop up, or a swarm of intrusive thoughts, or the inability to get any answer at all. Because of this and fear of this, that also makes communication even more difficult.

I'm not sure how to know what vocality is or not.

I may have mistakenly interpreted it as something that improves overtime, but is it actually something that a tulpa either has or doesn't have at all?

I think I normally would have thought that my tulpa has some level of vocality, but that it is at a low or primitive level, and that our goal is to increase it so communication can become as easy and clear as talking to any other person. If vocality is something that just either is or isn't, then I am not sure. I want to lean towards yes, since I have forced for over 2 years very close to everyday, and don't go a day without interacting with her. We even talk, and I accept whatever response I do get as her within reason, but conversations are often very one sided, and it is often a large strain to get responses and often involves a lot of confusion and anxiety for me. It is very hard to intrinsically tell the difference between thoughts I choose to accept as her and ones that are not. I just do it because I thought it was part of the process. I wish there was a more concrete way to understand what I am experiencing and that I could explain it better. If vocality automatically means communication is easy, then it seems to not be there...

Does this seem like we have vocality? Or are we somehow not there yet? I wish I could just show my experience as I probably am choosing words poorly or not covering the entire picture. I really can't tell if our vocality is far behind what I previous thought, (as in perhaps not even there at all) or if we are actually a lot further than I thought we were.

I just really want communication with her to become clear and easy, so we can freely interact without anxiety or misunderstandings. It is hard to talk to her about anything and exchange complex thoughts in words. Hmm... it is tremendously hard to explain these experiences in any concrete way that makes sense because so many things are incredibly ambiguous, so I guess I'll leave it here for now...
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#2
That sounds very painful, but also hopeful. I think you have some vocality, so don't worry.

This is a fun exercise for vocality practice.

She should sound just like the dialog from literature of any type. Preferably in her own tone or voice. In the beginning it starts with a mix of proxying and tulpish (pure thought). Some pick up really fast that their mind voice sounds a heck of a lot like yours, that's okay too, they need you to believe that it's them for them to be able to communicate well.

We go through these two schools nearly every week:
1. Waiting for them to just start talking, without your help, or
2. You'll have to do some helping and it's going to feel a lot like parroting, that's okay! Especially since you can get yes/no even if it's not perfectly consistent. Parrot, and they'll tell you using any number of means, pressure, emotions, gestures in visualization, and light vocality.

When you have a lot of intrusive thoughts it can be annoying, so if you ask something like, "are you happy" you might hear 'yes' and 'no' at nearly the same time or even overlapping. That's the worst, I relate. Try to assume reasonable responses are from them and if they're not rejecting it, then don't look back.

If nothing works above (give it a chance) then the last resort in my mind is straight up writing a story with them in it. It can be about anything, even nonsense, just you write down what they might say and read it in their voice.

This will make it comfortable for them to use that channel especially if you aren't doubting them every second.

We're here to help, let us know what happens!
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#3
Thank you for replying.

The link for vocality practice seems interesting. Though so far I have tried out the first two exercises in it, and it has been incredibly frustrating. Intrusive thoughts are an unbearable thing to deal with and go far beyond potentially fake responses from tulpa or overlapping things. It can also be disgusting and embarrassing things I didn't want to think at all and it is very awkward. It is extremely hard to not make that happen when trying to let her fill in any blank and it makes me want to bang my head into a wall.

When that isn't happening, sometimes would often get an instant response, but it felt very much just like the first instant thing to pop into my own head rather than something she was saying. She then seemed to tell me I was getting ahead of her, and then she'd have her own response that was very different and made more sense.

It is incredibly hard to describe these subjective experiences clearly... For a lot of "her" responses, I felt a strong ownership of what was being said, so it could be hard to reasonably attribute it to her... What seemed to be her explanation of things after said responses seemed more relaxed and closer to what could be potentially her than the responses themselves.

There are also often times I ask her if she said something and I get "I don't know", so I'm not sure what that means.

Though in the end I am still very frustrated and confused. I've read before that vocality ultimately does lead to an actual real voice in ones head, I think, though it seems now recently I am being told that it is just a voice in ones head like when reading to yourself. If it can't be any stronger than internal dialogue which is like a silent sound or impression of sound or voice, I struggle to know how to seperate anything they could possibly be saying or not saying from anything else...

I feel I might be already largely experiencing a lot of the things being described to me, like words in ones head, seeing images of them emoting, head pressures while trying to interact with them, and maybe even feelings, but they are vague and it is hard for me to put anything concrete to feelings. Though I am not sure how it can be enough for clear communication, as so many things can mangle all of this, and I feel if I accepted everything that happens it would just cause illogical contradictions... Also, having a character speak and emote in my head is very easy... From roleplaying, it happens a lot in my head already from before I knew about tulpas, and it is also something I can do regularly when having imaginary conversations with other people, or even a thing that happens to me with other established characters. All that beings said, I'm not sure if I should say every single one of my characters is a tulpa, or that I have Goku and Vegeta tulpas, or tulpas of any person I've interacted with in the past. So words and images arising in my consciousness seems far from what should be acceptable to take as a tulpa communicating... Maybe some of it actually is, but I could also imagine interactions with them that aren't actually happening, and it wouldn't really be any different than all of this? Is the only difference between my tulpa and their communication from other people and their tulpas is the way I interpret my experience? If it isn't actually supposed to go beyond what I am experiencing, I feel very discouraged and kind of hopeless. Though I was told it isn't supposed to be confusing or hard, so I don't know...

There is maybe a bit of something else with communication with her in form of unspoken words, which I guess is called tulpish, but it is an incredibly subtle experience, though is probably actually the main source of anything I've interpreted as real communication with her, because even if there are so called words popping up in my head, they often feel more like fluff or a show in front of what is really being communicated, and can sometimes be incongruent with the sounds in my head. I'm not very good at dealing with feelings or subtle things though, which is why I have been striving so long for a concrete voice she can speak to me with that is an entirely different experience from thoughts in my head.

I'm so sorry for such a long reply, I'm maybe rambling now, I just feel so confused and sad. I'm also frustrated that I can't share experiences outside of my poor words that probably don't clearly explain anything, and the difficulty I have understanding what other people are actually experiencing. I hope there is something that can be done...
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#4
First, take a breath, relax, meditation helps a lot. Specifically relaxation meditation.

The tulpa will sound like reading dialogue, the voice will be as differentiated as reading the dialogue of one character versus another. You are one, they are another one. To help, they can preface any statement with your name, as in, "John, i am happy." (If your name is John, i hope it's not because i just picked it randomly.)

There's nothing magic, they have to use your mindvoice, hopefully with a different tone. Doubt is always a big part of this. The doubt is going to be there until you're convinced that they're not just being puppeted. You will know, like I do, because they've done convincing things, and said surprising things, that really seems illogical that it's just me. That's the real convincing.

You do have a mess right now because you want a 2 year old tulpa without and of the hard earned experience that has proven that they're really there.

Here's the most basic method.

Puppet->Proxy->Vocality. Proxy in this case would be saying whathou think they said and asking if it wad them.

Intrusive thoughts are a b****, try meditation, try a quiet room, lots of sleep, exercise, good diet, no drugs, smoking or alcohol for a month at least. If you do all that abd still struggle like it's never going to happen, take a break. Try again later.

That's all the advice i have, hopefully someone else has more or can correct me if this is not perfect.
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#5
I don't think I have a fear that they are being puppeted, assuming that means intentional conscious control of them, just that I have trouble considering thoughts/speaking that arise in my head without my conscious intent as definitely being them rather than just being the same as any audio/visual mental experience that may arise that I can watch. I have "technically" seen them do and say convincing or surprising things, but most those experiences aren't free from being questioned. I generally don't question them though, and move on as if it was simply them. I thought in time it would evolve into something that is impossible to question, but it hasn't...

I've meditated a lot, but have run into awful walls with both it and forcing. It can be hard to relax doing either. Meditating fills me with dreadful anxiety a lot of the time, and I lost my ability to concentrate well doing it, and it applies 10x for forcing. I think it may be meditation purifications, but I am not sure, maybe I will have to somehow find a meditation teacher to ask...

Thanks for taking time to help anyway. I hope someone can come and help me find answers, if I can't on my own.
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#6
ghost1213177 Wrote:Hi again. I'm sorry to bother you again.

I didn't get many replies to my thread, and it's finally sunk over to the second page, so I doubt anyone else will say anything at this point. -

Bump!

ghost1213177 Wrote:- That person seemed to say I have some vocality, though I'm not too sure what that means. Is my tulpa just fully vocal, then? Could my experience with my tulpa be exactly the same as you and everyone else who has a vocal tulpa, except I can't help but doubt my experience where others do not? I tried forcing myself to force a lot more than I have been recently, despite dilapidated mental state that makes it hard. I feel on a certain level I technically experience a lot of the things you and angrybear said, but I am just incapable of feeling confident that it is always them, or whether it is ever them, and it is too stressful to deal with communicating at that level with intrusive thoughts. Just hearing a voice in my head, like a internal reading voice, but in a different voice to my mindvoice, is definitely not enough for me to conclude it is them, for all kinds of reasons. I can have that experience with anything, like other characters I have, or characters from other things, or other people in real life. And I see images of her in my head of her moving and gesturing on her own, but I am also just capable of imagining her, so I don't have a way to tell the difference between her and me imagining her. I do have some feeling or sense I can't describe, that does make me believe she is real and sentient, and with it certain conceptual thoughts seem to be communicated, but it is vague and hard to use alone a lot of the time, especially since I am often always plagued with constant doubt, anxiety, and depression. I don't know how to make it all go away and have it just be so clear and obvious it is definitely her with no doubt. I already treat her like a real person and have for a long time, and constantly imagine her next to me to point I don't really feel alone, and I go out of my way to walk around her or let her move out of the way if I need to get somewhere. I've tried so much to get my mind to know someone else is there and that I need to hear them. It hurts so much to not be able to fluently talk to them. It really shouldn't be harder to talk to them than it would be to another physical person in a room with me.

This was something we only intended to try once vocality and perhaps even imposition was fully completed, but maybe we would have to now. Do you think it would be possible for us to switch, or whatever it is good to call it? If she could take control of my body and be the one in my current position, I would be left in position of what it is like to be a tulpa, right? And from there, since she'd have full control and could even speak or write things down, she could easily and clearly do that to communicate anything she needs to, and since I will be not in my body anymore, it should be so extraordinarily obvious that it is her without any doubt. And perhaps the experience would make it clearer what communication is like for a tulpa and what is and isn't them. It seems you switch a lot and do so easily, so do you think it would be possible for me, and also a valuable experience for fixing our ability to communicate to one another? I don't know what else I can do...

so first, vocality, while your tulpa may be able to talk to some extent what's left to do is mostly a mixture of them being cemented as a mental habit I guess you could say, and also (and even more importantly) you need to start believing in your tulpa!! We told ya' before, the intention on your part for it to be your tulpa speaking and telling your brain that at least some things are your tulpa, is what leads to tulpa vocality! Telling your brain that certain things are them talking and to do more of that is how your brain learns to have a tulpa at all. Your problem seemed like it always was and still is that you're too apprehensive about accrediting anything to your tulpa, afraid it's not really them. And we said IT DOESN'T MATTER! this early, because this early your tulpa is only just learning to speak and the hopefully years ahead of you guys are when you can worry about whether thoughts are yours or your tulpa's. For right now you have to set your fear aside and teach your brain how to tulpa in the first place! And by now, yes, that is mostly just by acknowledging that things that seem like they could've been your tulpa WERE them. Thinking "Yes, that was my tulpa speaking!" and really thinking about the thoughts in question as being your tulpa/someone else other than you is the most important step in tulpa vocality. I think you're at the point where could-be tulpa thoughts are presenting themselves, but you're not making it to the next step (full vocality!) because you're too afraid to believe anything could be them. Does that make sense?

Second, switching... no, you shouldn't do that yet. You're having way too many issues with doubt and knowing what is your tulpa or not, while switching is like the pinnacle of knowing what is and isn't your tulpa - Tulpamancy is not a pre-existing thing you can learn to do, it's a totally new hand-crafted experience every time someone new learns it, and you're just shaping your own experience with what others have already experienced (so you at least know is possible). That means you won't just fall into switching because it's a thing your not-quite-vocal tulpa will innately be able to do. Switching requires hard work to learn and, more importantly, probably shouldn't be done while tulpa independence/sentience is still being doubted 'cus it can lead to identity issues for the host (and tulpa(s)). People have done possession without fully vocal tulpas though.. still wouldn't recommend it. they'd have to be fully independent in the wonderland using their own form first, for example, but I get the feeling you'd be just as likely to doubt that as their voice, until you've worked on that like I said at least


Anyways, feel free to bump your thread (that means posting in it again after it's gone inactive because you want people to give more input still) with more questions even if it's been a while!
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#7
(04-09-2019, 01:12 PM)Lucilyn Wrote: Bump!


so first, vocality, while your tulpa may be able to talk to some extent what's left to do is mostly a mixture of them being cemented as a mental habit I guess you could say, and also (and even more importantly) you need to start believing in your tulpa!! We told ya' before, the intention on your part for it to be your tulpa speaking and telling your brain that at least some things are your tulpa, is what leads to tulpa vocality! Telling your brain that certain things are them talking and to do more of that is how your brain learns to have a tulpa at all. Your problem seemed like it always was and still is that you're too apprehensive about accrediting anything to your tulpa, afraid it's not really them. And we said IT DOESN'T MATTER! this early, because this early your tulpa is only just learning to speak and the hopefully years ahead of you guys are when you can worry about whether thoughts are yours or your tulpa's. For right now you have to set your fear aside and teach your brain how to tulpa in the first place! And by now, yes, that is mostly just by acknowledging that things that seem like they could've been your tulpa WERE them. Thinking "Yes, that was my tulpa speaking!" and really thinking about the thoughts in question as being your tulpa/someone else other than you is the most important step in tulpa vocality. I think you're at the point where could-be tulpa thoughts are presenting themselves, but you're not making it to the next step (full vocality!) because you're too afraid to believe anything could be them. Does that make sense?

Second, switching... no, you shouldn't do that yet. You're having way too many issues with doubt and knowing what is your tulpa or not, while switching is like the pinnacle of knowing what is and isn't your tulpa - Tulpamancy is not a pre-existing thing you can learn to do, it's a totally new hand-crafted experience every time someone new learns it, and you're just shaping your own experience with what others have already experienced (so you at least know is possible). That means you won't just fall into switching because it's a thing your not-quite-vocal tulpa will innately be able to do. Switching requires hard work to learn and, more importantly, probably shouldn't be done while tulpa independence/sentience is still being doubted 'cus it can lead to identity issues for the host (and tulpa(s)). People have done possession without fully vocal tulpas though.. still wouldn't recommend it. they'd have to be fully independent in the wonderland using their own form first, for example, but I get the feeling you'd be just as likely to doubt that as their voice, until you've worked on that like I said at least


Anyways, feel free to bump your thread (that means posting in it again after it's gone inactive because you want people to give more input still) with more questions even if it's been a while!

Thanks for responding.

I am still confused though. I feel like I have already been doing that for a long time. For a very long time, I have been going out of my way to suspend disbelief and just accredit things that seem like it could have been them, to them. Despite doing this for so long, there still seems to be a lot of limits on communication in general and I don't always naturally get viable responses. And on top of that, I can still get very confusing intrusive thoughts that range from disruptive and embarassing, to things that are nearly indistinguishable from her but just can't be unless she has dissociative identity disorder or something. So in a way, I feel I am already at the stage of worrying about what thoughts are hers or mine, or I think more accurately, what are hers and what are not, as I feel most thoughts in one's mind arises from neither. Though it is just despite having done all of this, I can still turn my scrutiny back on and have reason to doubt they talk at all, since it is too subtle and hard to distinguish when they do, which is why I was waiting for the point where I would actually hear their voice in my head, instead of it just being a reading voice which I find unreliable. Whether the reading voice sounds like them or not is irrelevant and doesn't help me distinguish whether it is them talking to me or not. I try really hard to carefully describe what is going on, but I feel I am still doing a poor job at it. I hope what I am saying can make sense somehow. I really feel I have already done and am doing everything that has been recommended to me. I hope the exact nature of my issue can become clearer somehow. I am sorry for the confusion.

And as for switching, just so I know I'm not misunderstanding that too, when it is done, one's actual subjectivity is moved somewhere else and is fully replaced by the other, right? Subjectivity being in this case being everything one experiences as self. So whichever person of the mindsystem that is experiencing self as controling the body, will go to some mental space while another part of the mind system that has their own seperate sense of self will be in control? That's how I have interpreted it from all I've read up until now, but I begin to fear other things since it seems I may have been wrong about the experience of vocality... I'm sorry if that is all confusing, it is a difficult thing to explain and very easy to misunderstand.
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#8
well I mean.. normally that "some other space" in switching we would simply describe as being the same as a tulpa's normal existence, but lol that doesn't say much for you does it? another reason not to try it..

anyways, I'm not totally sure what to say, you've been trying to credit things that seem like them as them.. but you still get lots of invasive thoughts/disordered (not really applicable as your tulpa) thoughts that aren't them. Aaand, you've been telling your brain that the ones that seem like them are them, and the ones that don't make sense to be them aren't them, right? like.. idk what else to advise you to do, that's sort of the be-all end-all for vocality basics..

maybe more traditional tricks could still help you, I dunno, I did kind of just assume you've tried it all already. stuff like reading to your tulpa(s) (and expecting them to be listening), or maybe interacting with them in your wonderland (or just any scenario you're comfortable visualizing yourselves in) since it's sometimes easier for tulpas to act independently form-wise in visualization than vocally, uhhhh. IDK what else, I guess this is why it's better to post publicly than just asking one person in PM?
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#9
Well, switching isn't going to solve your issue i feel because you need really good clear communication and total trust in them or it's really hard and just as vague I bet.

You want a hallucination of a real voice in your head... that's what I got from your post. Well, i can get that most times in a rather fleeting meditative state and during hypnagogia. HOWEVER, you still will have that same doubting vagueness because it's exactly what you want, buuuuuut... it it them? Is it intrusive? Is it really just me?

Well dangit the problem doesn't get solved with that either, though if you did believe by whatever means or action or proof your tulpa can give you, then all this vagueness goes away and you almost never get confused or doubt.

Doubt still happens, even after a year of bonafide 100% vocality, dream conversations, hypnagogic communications, lucid and vivid and everything you could wish for in tulpamancy, beauty and clearly otherworldly haintingly beautiful images and voices and yet your friggen brain still has a shadow of doubt behind every silver lined flippin cloud.

So yes, the most basic form of communication is just like a reading voice. Yes it's clear. Yes there's doubt. Additionally, In my experience I feel like I'm just translating tulpish half the time, which is perfectly fine too. In those cases it is me but i'm just saying in their mindvoice what they told me in tulpish. That's how it kinda feels sometimes. I repeat what they say, sometimes several times, like hitting instant replay. They're not doing that, it's me, but the thoughts came from them.

You just gotta get over the fact that there will be doubt until you actively squelch and logically remove it.

Good luck.
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#10
(Note: A really vocal and well-developed tulpa speaks clearly with the host just fine in a consistent manner and shouldn't be accompanied by frequent intrusive thoughts and especially not ones that sounded like them but made no sense - so you are NOT at that point yet and there IS more to strive for!)
Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.
All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written
Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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