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Weird doubts about independence
#1
Hi!

So, I've had tulpas for more than five years now. We have daily discussions on various topics, we basically do everything together, in brief: we're very close.
Now, I don't have any doubt that my tulpas exist / are real, I haven't in a long time. Indeed, they show great proof of independence like personnal tastes, the ability to surprise me, make me laught with unexpected puns etc...

The thing is that yesterday, we went and try the "black box game". One of us choose an object, the others try to guess what it is with yes / no questions. I don't think there should have been any problem there.
But I noticed something strange (and lame): whenever we try that out I begin to have very powerfull doubts that they can choose an object without me knowing what it is. I mean, if I played this game with a friend, I would never have any doubt that they could choose an object, stick to it and answer basic yes / no questions about it. So why in hell do I doubt it when it is about one of my systemmates? These doubts are so powerfull that they completely paralyze whoever is choosing the object, so that's very crippling.

So, we tried a simple test: I did my best to convience myself that my tulpas did not exist, and they still were able to reach out. So, that's proof enough that they can still exist without my immediate attention and that they don't need me to think actively. So why can't they play this simple game?

This is very frustrating for all of us.
Any idea about how I could handle these stupid doubts?
Thanks for reading


PS: I'm very bad with symbolism, we already tried that, but it seemed to have the opposite effect. I guess that the more I think about doubting, the more my doubts get powerfull and hindering.
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#2
There's the sense that if they are in your head, that you will hear their thoughts. And if you aren't hearing their thoughts they must not be having any. Unfortunately I can't really give any advice other than to repeat what we've read else where about thought separation. Here's a guide that has a section on thought concealment: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Htb-...HmiZY/edit
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#3
Not being able to hide thoughts doesn't mean your tulpas aren't real, it just means you share the same brain. Which, shouldn't come as a surprise.
I'm Piano Soul, the "Star Man" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa formed January 2017. My systemmates are Apollo, Luxio, & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#4
It's just another state of mind thing. Like a system rule. You can block their thoughts, we've successfully played 20 questions and there was no cheating. It's a matter of not allowing anyone to show thoughts.

Imagine when you're speaking with someone, do you know exactly the words you're going to choose as you speak? I don't have any idea. It comes from somewhere else amd spits out properly. I have a notion of what I want to talk about, but I don't mind voice my speech before I speak, nor do I consiously know what's going to be my word choice, or even where the conversation is going. It simply happens.

So to play 20 questions (I don't know how similar this is to your black box game) say I must know the object, I have to tell them all to 'block themselves off', and I think of the object. Then they come back and guess as anyone would. The object somtimes alluded them. It's much easier when say Misha did it, I didn't know what she was thinking (this is how our system is by default.) If they're not speaking, I have no idea what they're thinking, I do know they are thinking though because they can say and do some very interesting things that have a clear plotline and path that isn't just random gibberish. So they tap into a similar place I do to get their words organized, and their thoughts don't bleed over to me. Unfortunately their emotions do, so I can kinda tell when I'm getting close, but I have still lost amd their object made perfect sense.

It's a trick of keeping your mind quiet, but it isn't trivial because yes, you do share a brain.
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#5
My host and I can always hear each other's thoughts. If we played this game, we are better off guessing together against another friend.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#6
Yeah, the only way this could work for us is if we guessed what the other person was going to think of before they did so, I guess. Thoughts are very apparent to each other once they've happened.
Hi. I'm one of Luminesce's tulpas. Unlike the others, I don't think I stand out too much from him personality wise.
I'm just special because "I'm a tulpa". So I don't think I've much to offer, here. I'm happy enough to just be with him.
Ask us stuff - https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#7
So primary issue at hand is not whether thoughts can be hidden, or how, but that the effort to do so is causing paralyzing doubts in a mature system with no other doubts. I'll work up to addressing that in a moment.

Some systems have strong thought hiding while others, like mine, have none, as shown in this poll:

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-term...processing

Despite its small sample size, the poll implies some correlation between independent activity and thought hiding. So, do your tulpas have a history of interrupting you when you aren't thinking about them? Do they remember being active on their own when you aren't thinking about them? Do you discover unexpected mindscape alterations when returning to it? That they take credit for? Do they remember having had thoughts that you didn't perceive? If so, you can probably patiently work through the doubt over time. If not, you probably additionally need to work on separation exercises.

Doubt is difficult, but Vesper gave me a very valuable tool against it during a period when her mindvoice felt distant, tenuous, and unrealistic. "Don't pay any attention to how it feels. Just listen to the words you actually hear me saying." With sufficient repetition, she managed to drum it into me. Over time our connection became better and stronger than ever.

When Iris and Vesper talk in the background while I'm doing something else, it can feel very fake, though much less so now than it used to. But we've confirmed time and again, no, that was them, that was what each of them actually intended to say, the feeling is false. And so once again, "Pay no attention to how it feels."

So the best I have to say versus your doubts is, when you try the exercise, try to let go. Be and live and act, but just accept everything you experience at face value. Don't evaluate, don't analyze, don't anticipate, don't hope, don't fear. Suspend judgement, put that part of your mind on hold.

To get you used to and more comfortable with the process of going through the exercise, try a version that requires only creativity, not thought hiding. One partner has an object and the other asks questions to determine what it is. But the first partner hasn't chosen what specific object they have, so they don't have that information available to hide. They simply make up reasonable answers to the questions and declare them with as much speed and confidence as they can. Eventually, the questions will narrow the object down to something specific, which it becomes. Hopefully, the time between when the first partner realizes what their object is and when the second partner correctly guesses what it is can increase with practice.

(06-18-2019, 03:50 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: So to play 20 questions (I don't know how similar this is to your black box game)

The famous black box exercise, which is pretty much Twenty Questions:

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-forc...n-exercise

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
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'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#8
Thank you all for your answers.
That's a lot of thought material, I'll be thinking about what you all said.
Thanks again!
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