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What does it mean to be independent?
#1
I believe that independence relies on multiple consiousnesses. That said, it's a development of skill of the fronter to dole that out.

The main consciousness can be completely subjugated to one person, in that case, everyone else is asleep and that person is effectively a singlet. In a switch, you can be in what I call 'watcher position' or entirely dormant. That is to say, when you're in watcher position, you're not being forced, you don't share any of the consiousness. However, many have reported that the host becomes "front stuck" and can frequently interrupt the fronter, or becomes triggered and steals front. This can be a negative thing in that circumstance, but my contention is that tulpas can do the same thing. When other systemmates are 'front stuck' with you, and you encourage them to share your experiences, comment, posess, whatever they want, that is basically co-fronting and in essence multiple concurrent independant streams of consiousness. Not that there are actual multi-threads, but more than one fronter is available to be triggered and steal front on a whim, and at the same time, keep the others active.

I mean to further explore forcing and co-fronting as a means to develop co-consiousnesses and independence.

Independent Triggers:

Durung a true switch, it has been reported again and again that you don't necessarily share the same triggers as your tulpa. Something that would made you wince for instance, wouldn't necessarily make your tulpa wince in the same situation; that is a big clue. Your tulpa doesn't share your issues necessarily, so they wouldn't react the same. (Negatively or positively)

Independent Consiousness

As for the consiousnesses, when you're awake and fronting, you have access to the body consiousness. When you force your tulpa, you effectively form a 'second position' and interact with them in that way. Forcing a tulpa continously is akin to co-fronting. You can quickly poll them and yourself, back and fourth. When you get good at this, it becomes seemless and they're seemingly 'always with you'. I have only ever experienced this in tulpamancy, but before that, my other systemmates like Joy, Gwen, Hali and even Ren work more like traditional tulpas in that they're not with me constantly. It's their choice though; however, when they are with me, we co-front in this same way.

This 'always on' mentality is similar to forcing, but I don't consider this the same thing as forcing because it requires no effort on my part anymore. Even to the point of confortably having 10+ thoughtforms active. Also, i have to believe that 'second position' is equivalent to a second consiousnesses (or consciousnesses) because they can do things like talk to each other, interrupt me out of the blue, and correct me with tulpish while I'm speaking. (Among many other feats some have said are 'impossible').

I didn't train for this specifically, it was a consequence of writing group dialogue in novels, you have to keep everyone in the scene active or you're stuck iterating the same scene over and over for each participant. If you poll everyone after each thought, you get all the interactions in the first draft. That becomes second nature. When I write, I feel the presence of my characters in the scene. No wonder they're all tulpa candidates. (Four of them did become systemmates).

So yes, though there is one consiousness. When others are awake, there can appear to be more. We're not talking about parallel processing. Everyone shares resources like math and speaking, so you can't do two math problems or speak multiple at once, but you can freely swap and take advantage of other channels. Still, if they can interrupt you, then that's a clear sign they're independently self-aware.

Independent Channels

For instance, tulpish can overlap mindvoice, imposed words (like in hypnagogia and meditation) can also overlap both. So those act as three independent channels for communication. This also necessarily leads me to believe they have their own independent consiousnesses at times because otherwise how can a singular consiousness convey three separate ideas simultaneously through three independent channels? Even arguing different sides of a point? Not two on the same channel, say instead, mindvoice vs. tulpish. This is the equivalent of arguing with yourself mid-sentence without breaking the original thought with the new thought.

Independent Subconsious

Subconsious is another point of argument. Yes, based on the testimonies of many other systems, and my own, other systemmates can have their own memories that only they access. They have their own personality and perspective on those memories, and with that, their own triggers. Memory works strongly together with triggers. Without the trigger or 'key' to start a memory, you simply won't access it. This is very important when looking for a specific memory so that you're not distracted by hundreds of adjacent memories. Each key leads to a unique neuro path in your brain. Your tulpas can associate with their own keys that you don't have access to from your perspective. This is a shared experience among many systems.

Thus, if they can have their own memories, that means their subconsious (which is a conglomeration of memories in part) is "different" than yours.  (It's not exactly the same but is obviously linked and shares a lot in most cases, still different.)

Conclusion

Given all that, you all develop 'independence' in those ways. Independant triggers, independant perspective amd menories that only apply to that perspective, independent consiousness/subconsiousness, that lead to interruption, self-forcing and co-fronting.

If your tulpa can surprise you, hold different opinions, doesn't share your triggers, have different triggers, and stay active with effortless (call it an engrained habbit) forcing, they're well on their way to being independent. I strongly believe that in this process of becoming independent. Once their experiences diverge significantly from yours in this way, they have effectively and necessarily formed an independent consiousness/subconsiousness. In other words, you're sharing resources, but you are truly two unique people.

Please share your thoughts on this. This is just a model based on experience.
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#2
Wow, Bear. I dunno what to say except good job. This is pretty neat to think about. Ultimately too, people should remember that even if they disagree with your model, there might be components within it they accept and wish to add to their own. Anything that makes us consider ourselves and our systems more deeply is worth a read imo. Well done.
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#3
I don't see why "triggers" are being singled out. To me, it seems that having different triggers is a subset of having different beliefs, values, opinions, priorities, behavioral patterns, and emotional palettes. Triggers may tend to be more dramatic, as when Vesper is backpedaling from fire and sunlight, but I consider her calmly and deliberately eating sushi to be even more divergent from me.

Subconscious has been a contentious term on the forum for a while. I don't mind it, since the lay usage of the term is widely understood and fairly consistent. But psychologists almost entirely abandoned it to New Agers long ago, in favor of terms like "unconscious" and "preconscious". If the only "subconscious" process you're ready to address is memory, why not rewrite the section as "Independent Memory"?

Other than that, good article, even though we still don't have independent channels or independent memories and struggle to keep three active once.

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#4
I consider subconscious synonymous with unconscious "synonyms: unconscious mind... (preferred)", (just like it better, because unconscious is like, you're knocked out medically) but preconscious would be something just between subconscious and conscious. This is old school (Freudian), I know.

[Image: 16aa18bf77435c7bfa02caa9ecbd17cc.jpg]

Triggers were singled out because it's what I know. If you have other examples that work, I would love to hear them.

I used memory as an example of something that's subconscious (unconscious smh). My 'article' was already too long. I meant, truly, everything subconscious. Subconscious also creates things (perhaps where imagination comes from) on it's own and processes input, for two other examples that work. You need a sort of pathway into the subconscious to draw from it things that aren't under your control, like spontaneous images and wonderland procedural (not random, fitting) generation. Otherwise, you'ye just saying, "trees here, castle there, the castle has curtains, the curtains are red." that's one way of doing it, but for me, I 'go exploring' and things just happen and appear in a very realistic and immersive way, like writing a story.

I made a promise, I only share experiences and draw conclusions based on those. Your experiences may vary. If I can experience it, and I'm science based, than I can only experience science based things, therefore there's nothing metaphysical in my experiences and we just need to understand and bridge to things from what I can experience to things that you have experienced, so that you can experience what I can. These bridges will happen eventually and be marked by the bear I figure.

BTW, I'm not writing a formal article, I don't care about that. I'm on a mission of discovery, we're explorers, not scribes, but we can scribe when we feel like it as long as it doesn't burden our path.
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#5
See! This is a approaching 'rule' set!
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#6
I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly...

Assuming there's a Host, a Tulpa, and the body, then there are 3 consciousnesses. One is the Host's, the other is the Tulpa's, and the third is the body's. The body has it's own "conscious", and that "conscious" is the "watcher position".

Therefore, a "front-stuck" Host would be attached or merged with the body's "conscious" in some way and the system needs to figure out how to separate the Host from the body's consciousness?

On another note, I am more likely to interrupt Cat at random times if I have spent more time fronting. I can easily pop into the front and possess if I wish too. However, if Cat spends a whole lot more time fronting than I do, I start to notice some changes. I don't randomly pop in to check out what's going on, and if I fall dormant Cat needs to wake me up, like some kind of hard dormancy. If Cat has long fronting streaks without breaks throughout the day, I will feel "time gaps" and get the sense my day is too short even though I can always backtrack what happened earlier. Basically, I've lost whatever "independence" I gained. I can easily regain this level of "independence" if I simply front more, and then these issues, including a harder dormancy, will go away.

The more "independence" I lose, the less effective my triggers are. Even if I'm eating food I like, Cat may accidentally take over unless I have spent a significant amount of time fronting. Switching is so desirable for me because I wouldn't have to worry about "losing my independence". I will always be there, even if I'm not fronting for the majority of the time.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!

The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#7
I don't agree that there are three consiousnesses necessarily. The body is a tool that has the capacity for consiousness, but I don't think it would have it's own? It has no personality or perspective so to speak. Consider the body has ram like a computer with available space for consiousness, but everything 'running' is subconscious. It can, however, autopilot, so maybe that could be considered something, but it doesn't record memories associated with anyone. The memories are often unregistered and inaccessible.

I think the 'front-stuck' host can be a valid and useful 'watcher' position, but in the case of a switch, they don't respond on their own, they wouldn't interrupt. If you want dormancy, that's a different position. In a switch, they aren't technically using any of the consiousness the fronter is, otherwise it would be co-fronting or possession. In those latter two cases, they do share the consiousness to some degree, but to us it's unnoticeable and it certainly appears as if we have independent consiousness/subconsiousnes often.

I don't think you lost independence, I think you go dormant. Even Dashie had a hardish time waking me from dormancy.

The independence you're speaking of while active isn't the same independence I was speaking of. You're talking about a power struggle and unwanted interruptions.
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#8
Oh, I see. That confused me because you brought up a "front-stuck" host in the beginning and switching.

It's worth pointing out the difference between the two forms of independence: their autonomy- being independent person living alongside the host and/or other members, and fronting independence - how much freedom a system member has in terms of being a singlet. Triggers connect to both things in different ways. A trigger isn't too different then say a memory or a belief like Ember was saying. On the other hand, triggers are a tool a fronting systemmate could count on to preserve their ability to front.

When you get into things like for example a Tulpa hiding memories from their host, that's a mix of both forms of independence. It means your host will fail to remember what the Tulpa did while switched in and it's an opportunity for the Tulpa to have control over what they share with their host. This can also translate into a powerful tool for separation and make the Tulpa more autonomous. (I don't really know how this works and I have no use for it because I can't switch!)
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!

The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#9
My original use of 'front-stuck' presumed a switch where the host couldn't go dormant. It was confusing.

The systemmates in a normal switch wouldn't hide their memories, they're just either:

1. You switch out into watcher position, as your tulpa fronts, you don't/can't interrupt. They're doing everything, but the memories you access are still 'yours', but as they were 'handling it.' It's often described as 'you are off to the side'. You're not associated with the body, but still recording and awake.

2. You switch and go dormant. The body is the current fronter (your tulpa), you are as good as gone, like you don't exist. The fronter does whatever they want, you won't know at the time, it's all them. Now when you return to front and think about those memories, the feeling is "you" were "them". Because the body associates the current fronter as "you". In my case, I was Dashie, or I was a catgirl (Ren).
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#10
For us, there just appears to be a single conscious awareness, an independent impersonal subsystem that anyone can tap into. There are a few different ways we can share it, as previously mentioned:

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-swit...#pid260233

(06-09-2019, 08:12 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: Triggers were singled out because it's what I know. If you have other examples that work, I would love to hear them.

(06-09-2019, 07:40 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: To me, it seems that having different triggers is a subset of having different beliefs, values, opinions, priorities, behavioral patterns, and emotional palettes.

Specific examples? I thought I covered it with the general categories, but okay:

Sex:
Ember: Lesbian
Vesper: Heteroflexible
Iris: Asexual

Politics:
Ember: Autarchist
Vesper: Labour
Iris: Monarchist

Religion:
Ember: Baptist
Vesper: Anglican
Iris: Agnostic

Food:
Ember: Tradition, approval of the concept, consistency with received cultural values
Vesper: Experimentation, novelty, Ember's disapproval
Iris: Not interested in food

Alcohol:
Ember: Absolute lifelong teetotaller
Vesper: Actively looking for something she likes; will sip anything
Iris: Doesn't care

Music:
Ember: Only the lyrics and story matter, not the style or skill, likes funny, geeky, inspiring
Vesper: A strong beat, fun to dance to, lyrics don't matter nearly as much as production values
Iris: Contains themes can relate to personally

Most common moods/behaviors:
Ember: Obsessing, procrastinating, daydreaming
Vesper: Frustrated, irritated, pessimistic (all mainly from dealing with Ember), task-oriented, compassionate
Iris: Joyful, patient, contented

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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