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What falls under the range of an intrusive thoughtform/character?


Jamie

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Which of these are intrusive thoughtforms, or intrusive thoughts? I also used the word "character" in the title because I was made aware, some definitions of "thoughtform" exclude intrusives. For me, intrusive thoughtform means, it/they're intrusive, and in addition, they have a form, maybe presence, maybe some level of sentience. 

 

 

1. A man is obsessing about his crush. His mind wanders to daydreamed conversations with her constantly. He never intentionally starts thinking about her- she just keeps popping into his mind. Her responses are out of his control, he's not parroting her, he doesn't know what she's going to say next. 

 

2. Someone hears their nagging mother in their ear, whenever they do something they know she would disapprove of. They find the mother's mindvoice and words to be incredibly upsetting and hate when it happens. 

 

3. A person has a nightmare in which a monster comes after them, and the next few days, they keep seeing the monster in their wonderland, popping out and chasing them. They dismiss the monster whenever they see it. 

 

4. Someone mentally says, "No one is able to say this eyeliner isn't dope!" Immediately, they sense a presence in their mind in the same manner as their own or their tulpa's, which says in a clear voice, "It's cheap crap." along with tulpish of the same tone. The presence vanishes right after.

 

5. A women holds a mental argument with a coworker of hers. She stops talking to the mental character and focuses on something else, but he continues to pop up and try to argue with her for the hour. He has a sense of presence like any tulpa or host, and is aware of the women's surroundings and the IRL world. At some point in the hour, after being ignored over and over, the sense of presence fades away and he never pops up again. 

 

6. In a moment of stress, a blue light is imposed in my vision and I feel a massive sense of presence. I hear, "I am a Representative of the Faceless Choir of a Thousand Voices. Submit to our will and receive freedom from suffering!" and feel light-headed and full of awe. When spoken to, the responses are somewhat nonsense and not consistent (asking the same, simple question twice in a minute results in different answers, and if you ask "What's 2+4?" you may or may not hear "6.") The level and feeling of the sense of presence changes, sometimes coming with a sense of awe and other emotions and bodily reactions, sometimes not. Representatives from the Choir "visited" a few dozen times a day for a week or so, and now, maybe a month later, I haven't heard one for over a week. 

 

7. Generally upon feeling some negative, self-directed emotion (anger toward myself, embarrassment about myself, etc.), but sometimes with no clear trigger, I'll hear my own voice say "I'm going to murder you." to me. Sometimes there is a sense of presence outside of my own, sometimes not. (AKA, sometimes it feels like I said it, sometimes it feels like some clone of me said it.) The voice will sometimes go on to make situation-specific comments or respond to my own reactions/thoughts. 

 

 

What do you define as an intrusive thoughtform? Do you even use that term, or does "thoughtform" mean having something that "intrusive" doesn't include? 

 

- J

The world is far, the world is wide; the man needs someone by his side. 

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maybe some level of sentience.

Nope, nope, nope, intrusive thoughts do not have sentience. It's not healthy to treat them like they do unless you have prior reason to believe they are (like a tulpa you used to force but gave up, though that wouldn't really count as an intrusive thought and more like an intrusive tulpa)

 

I'll analyze each of these examples....

 

1. Yes, that's a clear example of intrusive thought. Them being out of his control only exemplifies the intrusiveness. I do not think that talking = sentience, and I do not think that them seeming out of his control means he's not parroting. We think that you can unconsciously parrot, and that's the most common way intrusive thoughts that resemble people come about. Unknowing, unintentional, automatic parroting, either caused by an individual or the system as a whole/body OS.

2. Yes, that's a clear example of intrusive thought.

3. Yes, that's a clear example of intrusive thought.

4. Yes, that's a clear example of intrusive thought. I do not think that having the same "manner or presence as a tulpa" equates to actually being a tulpa; rather, I think that one's mind is just used to treating other things in their brain like tulpas, that can translate to how intrusive thoughts appear to them.

5. That's an example of an intrusive thought, however I don't know how you're defining "awareness" here. Do you mean it reacts to things going on? That doesn't mean it's actually aware. Do you mean it says it's aware? Again, doesn't mean it's actually aware. I don't think in a situation like this it would be actually aware even if it appears that way.

6. Without any other information that would lead me to believe otherwise, this too appears to be an intrusive thought.

7. This is also an intrusive thought. Being situation-specific doesn't lead me to believe it isn't, since, again, intrusives can react to what's going on. It's all just you/body OS controlling them automatically anyway. 

 

An intrusive thought to me is just as it sounds, any thought in your mind that isn't welcome. These can manifest to appear sentient without really being sentient, and they can appear to have free will without really having free will. Intrusive thoughts are a sign of instability, not sentience. One must realize that they don't have power and aren't really capable of free will, and dismiss them, not indulge in them or entertain the idea that they're somehow something more. Don't see them as sentient and don't view them as sentience. Sentience is reserved for people, not things that resemble people. If an actual person is being intrusive, that's a different matter.

 

And yeah, I do reserve the word thoughtform for sentient people. A thought with a form is still a thought, and a thoughtform without a form is still a form. I don't think "thoughtform" should refer to a literal form, rather form in an entity sense. An intrusive thought is not an entity. It's just brain vomit.

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Which of these are intrusive thoughtforms, or intrusive thoughts? I also used the word "character" in the title because I was made aware, some definitions of "thoughtform" exclude intrusives. For me, intrusive thoughtform means, it/they're intrusive, and in addition, they have a form, maybe presence, maybe some level of sentience. 

 

What do you define as an intrusive thoughtform? Do you even use that term, or does "thoughtform" mean having something that "intrusive" doesn't include? 

 

I believe walk-ins can be autonomous intrusive thoughtforms. If you choose not to keep them, they're intrusive, even if they're one of your characters (like my dragonkin Vend, he's a literal monster and can't play well as is.)

 

Intrusives are everthing and anything not wanted. Treat it all similarly. Don't think about them, don't dwell, don't feed the pigeons and squirrels.

 

1. A man is obsessing about his crush. His mind wanders to daydreamed conversations with her constantly. He never intentionally starts thinking about her- she just keeps popping into his mind. Her responses are out of his control, he's not parroting her, he doesn't know what she's going to say next. 

 

If he doesn't want her, she's intrusive, push her out. If he wants her, but not as a factive headmate, don't treat her as her own person. She's your little pet instead, she does what you want, says what you want her to, if she's breaking those rules, she is more intrusive. (I know this sounds odd, but let's keep it in terms of scenarios not moral/ethical, if it's a character, that doesn't apply, the same way an actor's character can be tortured in a horror scene, don't torture the actor.)

 

2. Someone hears their nagging mother in their ear, whenever they do something they know she would disapprove of. They find the mother's mindvoice and words to be incredibly upsetting and hate when it happens. 

 

Intrusive thoughts, earworm.

 

3. A person has a nightmare in which a monster comes after them, and the next few days, they keep seeing the monster in their wonderland, popping out and chasing them. They dismiss the monster whenever they see it. 

 

Continue to chase it away, use as little effort as possible on an intrusive. Don't think about them.

4. Someone mentally says, "No one is able to say this eyeliner isn't dope!" Immediately, they sense a presence in their mind in the same manner as their own or their tulpa's, which says in a clear voice, "It's cheap crap." along with tulpish of the same tone. The presence vanishes right after.

 

Definitely an intrusive thought. Had those a lot.

 

5. A women holds a mental argument with a coworker of hers. She stops talking to the mental character and focuses on something else, but he continues to pop up and try to argue with her for the hour. He has a sense of presence like any tulpa or host, and is aware of the women's surroundings and the IRL world. At some point in the hour, after being ignored over and over, the sense of presence fades away and he never pops up again. 

 

Class 5 intrusive, set terminators to extreme prejudice.

 

6. In a moment of stress, a blue light is imposed in my vision and I feel a massive sense of presence. I hear, "I am a Representative of the Faceless Choir of a Thousand Voices. Submit to our will and receive freedom from suffering!" and feel light-headed and full of awe. When spoken to, the responses are somewhat nonsense and not consistent (asking the same, simple question twice in a minute results in different answers, and if you ask "What's 2+4?" you may or may not hear "6.") The level and feeling of the sense of presence changes, sometimes coming with a sense of awe and other emotions and bodily reactions, sometimes not. Representatives from the Choir "visited" a few dozen times a day for a week or so, and now, maybe a month later, I haven't heard one for over a week.

 

Sounds like hypnagogic induced hallucinations. They can be 'better than real.' It's really lucky in my system that this sort of thing is usually benign. The overwhelming visual beauty, the angelic voices, the music and background are all things we've seen, thankfully they're experiences that were actually my tulpas. Clearly and definitively, during hypnagogic state. This can happen any time of day now, tired or not, and whoa would really suck if it was intrusive stuff instead of them. Try to have Gavin take control of the scene, this is probably subconsious mind burping otherwise. (Like I think your clones are personally.)

 

7. Generally upon feeling some negative, self-directed emotion (anger toward myself, embarrassment about myself, etc.), but sometimes with no clear trigger, I'll hear my own voice say "I'm going to murder you." to me. Sometimes there is a sense of presence outside of my own, sometimes not. (AKA, sometimes it feels like I said it, sometimes it feels like some clone of me said it.) The voice will sometimes go on to make situation-specific comments or respond to my own reactions/thoughts.

 

-J 

 

Regular intrusive thought, have these too, we simply deny it was us and move on.

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  • 11 months later...

For some reason I never responded to this thread. Better late than never I suppose.

 

We use "thoughtform" to mean anything that appears autonomous and sentient in the mind and is represented by some imagery or symbolism, even if their sentience is in question. Story characters, NPCs, walk-ins, intrusive thoughtforms, and tulpas can all be "thoughtforms". We used to use a more generalized definition of "thoughtform" to mean any entity that takes a visual form in the mind, however over time our definition became more specific and we used "wonderland symbolism" to cover things like wonderland trees. Our definition assumes there is a visual component to the entity in question, therefore you can have a tulpa who is not a thoughtform because they don't have a form in wonderland.

I believe we coined the term "intrusive thoughtform". We use it to mean a walk-in that feeds off of your stress by confusing you, harassing you, or belittling you. This is not to be confused for a walk-in that is unwanted, those are just walk-ins that also happen to be intrusive. Intrusive thoughtforms can be mistaken for "tulpas" suddenly turning evil or a new tulpamancer forcing a tulpa only for their "tulpa" to turn on them and bully them. We believe intrusive thoughtforms are something people struggling with anxiety and depression get, but not all anxious and depressed people get. There's also an exception to the wonderland form rule- if the thing in question has a presence, then it would be an intrusive thoughtform.

Just another note- sometimes we call intrusive thoughts "intrusives" for short, but we would say it's an intrusive thoughtform beforehand.

I will break down each example one by one:
 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

1. A man is obsessing about his crush. His mind wanders to daydreamed conversations with her constantly. He never intentionally starts thinking about her- she just keeps popping into his mind. Her responses are out of his control, he's not parroting her, he doesn't know what she's going to say next. 


I'm assuming he's simulating the experience of talking to her irl, not actually talking to a mindform version of her in wonderland.

Simulation is parroting. He's probably coming up with possible responses she could say on the spot, and he may find them to random to be predictable.

If he's bothered by thinking about her, then it would qualify as an intrusive thought. If not, then he's just distracted.
 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

2. Someone hears their nagging mother in their ear, whenever they do something they know she would disapprove of. They find the mother's mindvoice and words to be incredibly upsetting and hate when it happens. 


We would call this an intrusive thought. We reserve intrusive thoughtforms for entities that talk to you in wonderland.
 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

3. A person has a nightmare in which a monster comes after them, and the next few days, they keep seeing the monster in their wonderland, popping out and chasing them. They dismiss the monster whenever they see it. 


The monster would be an intrusive thougthform since it has a wonderland form and seems autonomous, even thought it's unlikely it's a separate entity.
 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

4. Someone mentally says, "No one is able to say this eyeliner isn't dope!" Immediately, they sense a presence in their mind in the same manner as their own or their tulpa's, which says in a clear voice, "It's cheap crap." along with tulpish of the same tone. The presence vanishes right after.


Given that there's a presence, I would say this is an intrusive thoughtform. We like to think of intrusive thoughfroms as an alternate version of walk-ins, and since walk-ins can have a presence, so can intrusive toughtforms.

Regardless, identifying this one wouldn't be as helpful since it came and went pretty much instantly unless this happens repeatedly.
 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

5. A women holds a mental argument with a coworker of hers. She stops talking to the mental character and focuses on something else, but he continues to pop up and try to argue with her for the hour. He has a sense of presence like any tulpa or host, and is aware of the women's surroundings and the IRL world. At some point in the hour, after being ignored over and over, the sense of presence fades away and he never pops up again.


At first it sounded like the conversation was simulated, but given the additional context that's pretty much an intrusive thoughtform. Intrusive thoughtforms also fade away after calming down and starving the intrusive thoughtform of attention for long enough.

 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

6. In a moment of stress, a blue light is imposed in my vision and I feel a massive sense of presence. I hear, "I am a Representative of the Faceless Choir of a Thousand Voices. Submit to our will and receive freedom from suffering!" and feel light-headed and full of awe. When spoken to, the responses are somewhat nonsense and not consistent (asking the same, simple question twice in a minute results in different answers, and if you ask "What's 2+4?" you may or may not hear "6.") The level and feeling of the sense of presence changes, sometimes coming with a sense of awe and other emotions and bodily reactions, sometimes not. Representatives from the Choir "visited" a few dozen times a day for a week or so, and now, maybe a month later, I haven't heard one for over a week.


Cat and I have had moments where we are stressed out and suddenly our wonderland becomes very magical and sometimes has a role-play vibe to it. I would consider this to be puppeting/parroting and not an intrusive thoughform or even intrusive thought. This is a category all on its own.
 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:49 AM, JGC said:

7. Generally upon feeling some negative, self-directed emotion (anger toward myself, embarrassment about myself, etc.), but sometimes with no clear trigger, I'll hear my own voice say "I'm going to murder you." to me. Sometimes there is a sense of presence outside of my own, sometimes not. (AKA, sometimes it feels like I said it, sometimes it feels like some clone of me said it.) The voice will sometimes go on to make situation-specific comments or respond to my own reactions/thoughts. 


Yeah, this is also hitting close to home with Gray's experiences. He has had "evil clones" of himself threaten him. This qualifies as an intrusive thoughtform.

I'm Ranger, GrayTheCat's cobud (tulpa), and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff. I go by Rosalin or Ronan sometimes. You can call me Roz but please don't call me Ron.

My other headmates have their own account now.

 

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