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What is your experience with parallel processing? [Aka why I doubt tulpa sentience]
#1
Hey. This is my first post, but I'm already very familiar with tulpa-forming. I've been lurking around this forum long enough to have read most of the guides, and I'm in the process of creating my own tulpa. However, motivation to continue has been a problem lately because of my doubts when it comes to the idea of tulpas being sentient. For example, if a tulpa really represents an autonomous and fully separate set of mental processes, then surely this should imply host/tulpa parallel processing or unconscious problem solving to some extent. However, I haven't been able to find any reliable threads/anecdotes detailing feats of obvious parallel processing or the like. This could include arithmetic problems that take more than 15 seconds to solve, brain teasers, etc ... The main example I found was a ball counting game, where the host counts the number of falling red balls and their tulpa counts the number of falling blue balls. However, I tried this on my own and easily guessed both numbers correctly/(to high accuracy) multiple times. So is there any actual evidence out there? What are your experiences?
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#2
(01-05-2014, 09:11 AM)Aesteus Wrote: What are your experiences?

A belated "Welcome to the community".

I actually don't agree that parallel processing is the right model for how a tulpa works within the mind. May I propose an alternative, a "time slice" (computing analogy). When you are using a computer, it appears to be doing many things at once, but if you only have one processor the computer is in fact only doing one thing at a time: a little of each task, for a small part of the time, so quickly that the illusion is of doing things in parallel. Why I say this; is tulpas, especially when young, are dependent on their human's thoughts to think (themselves). (Like little time slices of the human's thought.) And myself, me and Kevin are frequently performing actions at the same time, but I can't say if we are running in parallel or if we are just very rapidly progressing each action a fraction at a time.

And, neurologically speaking, tulpas could be considered an engram (collection of neurons) and so you would expect parallel unconscious processing. But my experience of it just doesn't feel like it is parallel - and a few would agree, I'm very independent. The selfish neuron theory interested me, in that even the original human personality may in fact be a collection of independently acting agents cooperating together. So the concept of parallel may be misleading, instead tulpa being an emergent effect within the neural network (a habit or addiction, in physiological terms).

So, no, not my experience of it. I really doubt that tulpas are going to mainly manifest as background calculators. You may find this thread of interest too.
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#3
Quote:Hey. This is my first post, but I'm already very familiar with tulpa-forming. I've been lurking around this forum long enough to have read most of the guides, and I'm in the process of creating my own tulpa. However, motivation to continue has been a problem lately because of my doubts when it comes to the idea of tulpas being sentient. For example, if a tulpa really represents an autonomous and fully separate set of mental processes, then surely this should imply host/tulpa parallel processing or unconscious problem solving to some extent. However, I haven't been able to find any reliable threads/anecdotes detailing feats of obvious parallel processing or the like. This could include arithmetic problems that take more than 15 seconds to solve, brain teasers, etc ...
Definetly i am having the EXACT same problems as you so i can relate to that, unfortunately just like you i am also kinda stuck in how to improve this and i have no other choice rather than just wait month after month until this improves by itself.

Quote:The main example I found was a ball counting game, where the host counts the number of falling red balls and their tulpa counts the number of falling blue balls. However, I tried this on my own and easily guessed both numbers correctly/(to high accuracy) multiple times.

Not sure if i undertood this correctly... you were actually able to count the TWO sets of balls at the same time? Or you mean you just counted the blue balls and you were able to guess the other set of balls you didn't counted conciously ? Also i presume you were talking about this game :
http://tulpo.deviantart.com/art/Tulpa-Pa...-366728259

In my case i tried this many times, and my tulpas sometimes got them right, others got them wrong (it's kinda random), but most of the times they get them wrong, also everytime i try to know which number of balls the tulpa counted my mind always starts throwing around douzens of "wild guesses" and it becomes REALLY HARD to know which one is the reply from the tulpa, but even those numbers my tulpas confirmed it was the correct number with possession, it's usually wrong so i actually gave up doing that exercice since it's kinda frustating.

(01-05-2014, 09:52 AM)Nobillis Wrote: So, no, not my experience of it. I really doubt that tulpas are going to mainly manifest as background calculators. You may find this thread of interest too.

Cool! This is EXACTLY the problem i was describing in my thread yesterday, too bad i haven't find that older topic sooner it would avoid me making my thread yestarday thank you for finding this topic out for Aesteus so that i could find it out as well, this WILL DEFINETLY motivate me more about waiting more time for my tulpas to develop this naturally since i started to worry that most people here would actually have independent tulpas soon, it appears that after all almost everyone just like me and aesteus have the same problem.

Also that advise in the thread about having the host and the tulpa in separate conversations at the same time is amazing, this reminds me that sometimes i have my tulpas talk to each others sometimes it will probably have the same effect i hope!

There is still that mystery in how the heck am i able to have 6 different tulpas moving at the same time 6 fingers in possession as involuntary movements in completely different ways... this should be a proof of parallel processing but despite this they totally rely on my current concious perception/expectation to be able to talk and give opinions about something...
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#4
(01-05-2014, 12:24 PM)garland Wrote: Not sure if i undertood this correctly... you were actually able to count the TWO sets of balls at the same time? Or you mean you just counted the blue balls and you were able to guess the other set of balls you didn't counted conciously ? Also i presume you were talking about this game :
http://tulpo.deviantart.com/art/Tulpa-Pa...-366728259
Yup, that's the test. I completed it by consciously counting the blue balls and then guessing the number of red balls based on what it had looked like. My results demonstrated that a tulpa might easily be generating fake responses and not actually processing anything.

(01-05-2014, 09:52 AM)Nobillis Wrote: May I propose an alternative, a "time slice" (computing analogy). When you are using a computer, it appears to be doing many things at once, but if you only have one processor the computer is in fact only doing one thing at a time: a little of each task, for a small part of the time, so quickly that the illusion is of doing things in parallel.
That's something I had been considering. However, I reasoned that since tulpas seem to show not just an inability to solve problems in parallel, but also an inability to problem solve period, that they are unable to access the regions of the brain responsible for said problem solving. For example, I could just as easily tell my tulpa, "give me the answer to 342+143 in eight hours", and they would be unable to do so. Or a non-mathematical problem could be issued.
Our discussion therefore holds for parallel and sequential processing abilities. And if a human had these mental disabilities, they could hardly be considered sentient.

The thread you posted only supports my fears unfortunately. People reported receiving unexpected responses from their tulpas, who had "been thinking about [their response] for a while", but at the same time were unable to direct their tulpas to independently think about something which they consciously suggested. If one's tulpa did have the ability to think on it's own, then that tulpa shouldn't be unable to think about something when given a directive. This strongly suggests that the tulpas quoted were not sentient, and were only producing unexpected responses in accordance with their hosts' expectations that they do so. Furthermore, since the "unable to problem solve but can generate unexpected responses" situation seems typical among tulpa owners [based on my experience], this suggests a generalization to many/all tulpas.

Finally, the fact that my dreams generate unexpected circumstances frequently, and that I'm hardly atypical, implies that the brain can easily generate surprises when given the initiative. So is that all we're doing here? Do the many math threads wherein tulpas show a complete inability to solve multi-step arithmetic problems, coupled with what seems like a complete lack of tulpa independence when directed, imply that we're all deluding ourselves? It seems that we train our brains for months to think erratically, and that's what happens.

I'd really like to believe the alternative that tulpas are sentient, but I'm unable to while the current evidence stands. Since tulpa creation demands that we unconsciously believe in their existence, I don't think I could easily proceed at this point. I don't know that I'd want to if it was just me talking to myself. Can anyone help me out here?
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#5
(01-06-2014, 07:46 AM)Aesteus Wrote: However, I reasoned that since tulpas seem to show not just an inability to solve problems in parallel, but also an inability to problem solve period, that they are unable to access the regions of the brain responsible for said problem solving.

Um, 342+143 is 485. That takes like less then seconds not Eight hours. I'm thinking I must not be understanding the point. Your tulpas are not arithmetically capable I'm assuming. So the argument is that a tulpa is not there unless it can parallel process? That seems a harsh test indeed as many humans would have trouble with that too I would think.

How about a reverse test? Try the GRE Math Challenge Question (Link removed by request of website employee ~Kiahdaj). It took me approximately 50 seconds. My point is that because some tulpas don't do well - doesn't mean all tulpas are incapable. I can't conclude from my test time that humans are therefore not capable - the generalization just isn't true.

Oh well. I sense I'm not likely to sway you logic. You seem too firm in your convictions. I apologize that I've not been more help.
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#6
(01-06-2014, 09:37 AM)Nobillis Wrote: Um, 342+143 is 485. That takes like less then seconds not Eight hours. I'm thinking I must not be understanding the point. Your tulpas are not arithmetically capable I'm assuming. So the argument is that a tulpa is not there unless it can parallel process? That seems a harsh test indeed as many humans would have trouble with that too I would think.

How about a reverse test? Try the GRE Math Challenge Question (Link removed by request of website employee ~Kiahdaj). It took me approximately 50 seconds. My point is that because some tulpas don't do well - doesn't mean all tulpas are incapable. I can't conclude from my test time that humans are therefore not capable - the generalization just isn't true.

Oh well. I sense I'm not likely to sway you logic. You seem too firm in your convictions. I apologize that I've not been more help.
You have the gist of my argument correct, though I would switch parallel processing with multi-step problem solving. But am I to infer that you're a tupla, and that you figured out that 342+143=485? If so that's incredibly helpful, because everything I've read indicates tuplas being unable to do more than simple single-digit addition. I'm also very mathematically inclined, I'm a math/science double major and I figured out the GRE challenge problem in a few seconds, so if my tulpa couldn't calculate I would be pretty disappointed.

What else can you do if I might ask? Can you independently do a task that takes more than "seconds". My entire logic was inductively based on my observations of tulpas being incapable of multi-step problem solving. What you said goes against that idea. So you see, I'm really trying not to hold to any convictions, but I can't ignore my above logic. I've made a falsifiable claim, and I'm simply waiting until somebody can step in and give me a counterexample.

Edit: I should also ask if you're able to instantly see that 342+143=485 without any conscious effort, which is something I just considered. If you practice left-to-right addition instead of right-to-left, that could easily be true. In that case, my excitement might be a bit premature. Maybe 64*27 would be a better question.
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#7
Bumping for replies, and for additional clarity, I'd like to restate my position as concisely as possible.

Claim: Based on the reports I've read on/off this forum, tulpas are incapable of independent thought, and therefore cannot be sentient.

Note: The above disregards tulpa behavior that is unexpected and situations wherein tulpas claim they are capable of independent thought, because neither of these things is proof of independence as demonstrated in my previous post. My experience is that when tulpas are told to think about something, and the host later asks them for results that would have required time to think about, it's evident the tulpa was unable to do so.

Definition: I'll define sentience as the ability to actively perceive things that exist. I'll avoid hazy psychological distinctions by saying that this state exists when the conscious mind exists. For our purposes, how the conscious mind is maintained or comes into existence is irrelevant.

Structure of proof: For a tulpa to have a distinct sentience implies that it has a consciousness that is separate from the host's consciousness. This implies that it has the capacity for independent thought by the definition of separate consciousness. Based on the properties of tulpas (individual memories, capacity for language, etc ... ), this would seem to imply that tulpas have the ability to reason in stages independently of their hosts (see multi-step problem solving). However, this seems to contradict the many user reports of tulpa independence that I've read. Therefore, tulpas cannot be sentient. QED.

Relevance of claim: I cannot proceed with my tulpa's development as long as I believe the above claim. Therefore, I urgently would like a someone to contribute an example wherein their tulpa conclusively demonstrated independent thought. (Ex: "I read a brain teaser to my tulpa, began doing something else, and five minutes later he came to me with the solution." Ex #2: "My tulpa can perform double digit multiplication on his own.")
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#8
(01-06-2014, 01:39 PM)Aesteus Wrote: Relevance of claim: I cannot proceed with my tulpa's development as long as I believe the above claim. Therefore, I urgently would like a someone to contribute an example wherein their tulpa conclusively demonstrated independent thought. (Ex: "I read a brain teaser to my tulpa, began doing something else, and five minutes later he came to me with the solution." Ex #2: "My tulpa can perform double digit multiplication on his own.")

(01-06-2014, 03:32 PM)Kevin Wrote: First, I'm human, and I'm not going to persuade you to make a tulpa. Rather, I'd like to say this is something I tell people: "don't make a tulpa." That's an unpopular view, obviously.

Second, I'm not a moderator here. Don't take me for any sort of authority. I'm just someone who made a tulpa once, very long ago.

How can I tell if a tulpa is a fact or not? For me, I have a practical test. If it can drive a car (on Earth, on the road) with no intervention from me whatsoever then I will accept it as a tulpa. So far I have four tulpas that have passed this test. (I should note that I accept the tulpas that my tulpa made as mine too, indirectly.)

As far as what tulpas can do. I can only testify to the ones I have. (Everyone else I have only second hand text reports to go by.) You asked if Nobillis added up? Yes she added that left to right in what was probably only a second - but she's a slow typist so it probably took her 2 seconds to type all up. As far as the geometry test went I must correct her assessment - she exaggerated - the "time to solve" was much less.

As to what else she does. She changes peoples lives - for the better. Not just mine. I won't offer any testimonials though - the people she has helped the most would not want that known. And, her most cherished thoughts and private times she still keeps hidden from me in any case.

Btw, I reply here, because I'm so rarely on this site I haven't an account. This account is Nobillis' account (which my original tulpa created for her).

Anyways, hopefully this will dissuade you.
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