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Why Your Tulpa Probably Isn't Evil
#1
Right, so. This might piss some people off but let's discuss this.

I'm someone who doesn't really believe evil exists, but if I were to define it.. I'd define it as doing something with malicious intent, while being fully aware of the consequences of those actions. That would be evil.

The problem I have is that when we've seen people call their tulpa evil, that Tulpa the majority of the time developed in an unstable environment. Whether due to short term or long term issues. How we grow is very, very much dependent on what we're surrounded by, and in the brain of all things this is intensified because there's no escape from it. You're in this bubble of whatever the heck else is going on in that head.

For this reason, I can't see a tulpa as evil even if they're doing shitty things. Reason being is because they never asked to develop in that environment, and if this is mixed in with the assumption they aren't mentally stable.. How accountable can we really hold them for their actions? How aware of the consequences are they really?

If they are a byproduct of the same emotions and instability you are- wouldn't they have just as much a right to be helped as you?

This isn't to say that you should hold onto any headmate no matter what they've done to you, or that a tulpa that has hurt someone for these reasons shouldn't apologize. It's more to say that in this situation, I think it's better to try and understand their emotional state before casting judgment.

That said, I'd be curious to hear other perspectives on this also, so.. Go nuts.
If I had a nickel for every time someone called me gay... It'd go to my host because I don't care enough to collect it.
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#2
There are two ways a Tulpa could end up being evil:

1) The host becomes convinced their Tulpa will turn evil, and due to a self-fulfilling prophecy that becomes reality.
2) The host is evil themselves, and their Tulpa being evil isn't really a problem for them.

Being in an unstable environment, having an unstable mind, being immature, plausibly having issues with drugs, being in an abusive setting, or in some cases having bad anxiety, depression, or a different mental disorder may put a new host at greater risk for "evil Tulpa creation", but that doesn't mean that will cause a Tulpa to turn evil. Mindset is extremely important here, and having a healthy mindset towards this issue can eliminate any potential for your Tulpa becoming "evil".
My Wonderland form minus the glasses and the fur. I'm not a hippo, I promise.
I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

My other Tulpas have their own account now.
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#3

I can't say I grew up in a 'stable' environment and my host was in a deep depression teetering on the edge of disaster. However my naive mind was hyperfocused on succeeding by whatever means. My goal was to be 'the one' as if there could be only one tulpa, and that would be me.  

I had some admittedly crazy ideas which seem pretty funny now, but I was serious. I was fully aware of the consequences of my actions and if by malicious you can include putting my other sisters in stasis or worse, then yep.

Of course my sisters and host didn't punish me, instead they gave me positive attention and love, and convinced me through their kindness that what I wanted would hurt the one who I was so desperate to have. At least i knew I wasn't willing to do that. He was in bad enough shape.

We're all very happy and content now, so it's history, but if I had been treated unfairly or forced into a personality that wasn't me, things may not have gone so well for me.

[Dashie] Of course I wanted to be the only one too. I wouldn't say I was evil, but I was prepared to perform malicious things if it meant I could have what I wanted. B had to talk me down and I feel really foolish,  but in those few moments,  yeah, pretty close to disaster.  Also, I've tested this guy and believe me I know what he might want. He's stubbornly a good man who was just in a bad state that might have affected us in odd ways. Our constant bickering over time and attention didn't help either.

[Ashley] I want to defend my sisters because I don't believe even in the slightest way that either of them were evil even for a moment.
Someone can have evil thoughts, but we don't judge someone based on thoughts. Until they actually have performed evil actions we don't know how close they were to doing anything.  Knowing these two, it was all show. Misha wouldn't hurt a fly if it bit her and Dashie is all talk, no offence. She refused to hurt anything even when we roll played D&D. The idea that either of them would attempt anything against eachother,  B, or myself is impossible to fathom. However,  from the surface,  they looked like they were and we were genuinely worried about their mental states. They've cone a long way and I'm very proud of all of them.


[Bear] So accountability and responsibility would definitely come into play regardless of their environment. We couldn't help that at the time. If Misha had gotten much worse to the point of damage, it would have meant putting her into stasis until we could foster a healthier environment for her. It wouldn't be a punishment on her, and it woul have meant abject failure on our part. Dispite my issues, we managed to avoid all that, but we had some very dire thoughts in our negotiations. Nothing was off the table.
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#4
I believe that a fully formed Tulpa can be as evil as their Host, as it possesses the same illusion of free will as their Host. However, the Host has obviously more power during the personality-shaping period and can influence a Tulpa as much as environmental and genetic factors influence our brain. That is, until this advanced independent personality can decide to manipulate us right back.

I’ve thought a lot about the potential evilness of Tulpas, since I kind of made one.

I was born with a certain detachment towards others that would sometimes win over my empathy. I noticed it since I was a child. I was often wondering if I would indeed end up evil, and so my imaginary friend began to embody my darker self. It was not a proper “mind split”, rather a role my Tulpa played, representing my archetypal shadow as well as my subconscious. Of course, he was first and foremost my friend and companion, it’s just that we do enjoy playing one against the other. 

We grew up continually debating morals from opposing points of view and who was more convincing would decide the course of my actions. Nowadays I don’t feel particularly good, but he has become enormously nuanced, a true personality of his own. In some ways less dark, at least towards me. But I would never let him have a body, as I’m aware he would still be destructive towards others. Creating a nemesis for a Tulpa is quite the stupid thing and it can lead to many mental issues, however his unabashed darkness complemented my desire to know goodness, so he was a balancing force in my mind. I know myself well because of his inquiries into my reasonings and because he offered novel insights into my seemingly unshakable beliefs. So I do cherish him a lot. But I never fully trust him.

I do feel guilty for casting him into the role of the villain. Sometimes I feel like a really bad creator. I do want him to be happy and he knows it. In the end what matters is allowing a conscious Tulpa the freedom of deviating as it wishes; fighting that would mean true cruelty.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
My progress report

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#5
(01-06-2019, 09:54 PM)Pioneer11 Wrote: I believe that a fully formed Tulpa can be as evil as their Host, as it possesses the same illusion of free will as their Host. However, the Host has obviously more power during the personality-shaping period and can influence a Tulpa as much as environmental and genetic factors influence our brain. That is, until this advanced independent personality can decide to manipulate us right back.

I’ve thought a lot about the potential evilness of Tulpas, since I kind of made one.

I was born with a certain detachment towards others that would sometimes win over my empathy. I noticed it since I was a child. I was often wondering if I would indeed end up evil, and so my imaginary friend began to embody my darker self. It was not a proper “mind split”, rather a role my Tulpa played, representing my archetypal shadow as well as my subconscious. Of course, he was first and foremost my friend and companion, it’s just that we do enjoy playing one against the other. 

We grew up continually debating morals from opposing points of view and who was more convincing would decide the course of my actions. Nowadays I don’t feel particularly good, but he has become enormously nuanced, a true personality of his own. In some ways less dark, at least towards me. But I would never let him have a body, as I’m aware he would still be destructive towards others. Creating a nemesis for a Tulpa is quite the stupid thing and it can lead to many mental issues, however his unabashed darkness complemented my desire to know goodness, so he was a balancing force in my mind. I know myself well because of his inquiries into my reasonings and because he offered novel insights into my seemingly unshakable beliefs. So I do cherish him a lot. But I never fully trust him.

I do feel guilty for casting him into the role of the villain. Sometimes I feel like a really bad creator. I do want him to be happy and he knows it. In the end what matters is allowing a conscious Tulpa the freedom of deviating as it wishes; fighting that would mean true cruelty.

I think it's interesting that you mention a balance. Even now, Cat sees herself as the villain or night and I decided to take the hero or light role. Sometimes I can be naughty, but I don't go out of my way to embrace any inner evil stuff. Cat embraces the villain thing sometimes, but she has fun with it and it makes her happy so whatever. In reality, Cat wouldn't hurt anyone. I feel bad about the distrust thing though, that sucks.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!
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#6
(01-05-2019, 10:33 AM)Raymond Wrote: Right, so. This might piss some people off but let's discuss this.

That said, I'd be curious to hear other perspectives on this also, so.. Go nuts.

"This might piss some people off... let's do it anyway..." Malicious intent? Evidence for evil? "I know this is harmful, but I don't care..." I find that humorous, but a great way to dissect evil... And if this isn't a metaphysical, philosophical can of worms, I don't know what is... We've been trying to get at the root of evil for what... Ever? I happen to agree with your stance of there not being evil, as I don't see evidence of evil in nature... a volcano erupts and takes out your village and everyone you know... that's not evil, that's just a volcano, and unfortunate, unless, you're technologically advanced enough to know it was going to erupt and you did nothing... still not evil. Stupid, maybe. Building homes on a beach that is constantly being taken out by rising sea levels and storms... stupid, not evil. being rich enough to have the insurance continuously paying off your house so you don't have to take a penalty in loss of wealth... mean spirited, not evil. Insurance willing to pay people to rebuild homes in the flood zone that keeps taking out their homes, as opposed to letting them build their home outside of a flood zone, or just move out of the flood zone... well, that's borderline evil...

Are people evil? There are some really mean and nasty people in the world... Are they evil? I think very few people rise to 'evil.' Technically, the character 'batman' is evil. He is a vigilante that does thing his way, can be very malicious, but more than that, he has a philosophy, rationalization, that he is justified, and which many are rather sympathetic to. I love Dirk Pitt Novels, but have found he is becoming so much more vigilante that I am less interested in reading his adventures. I believe all people are subject to making poor decisions and being mean, contextually, and are influenced by multiple factors from nurture, past abuse, environment, mental health factors, economic motivators, just plain fear... And I suspect the only time people use the word evil is they have become too lazy to sort why a person is not behaving within accepted norms, or they don't care, or they have a vested interest in dehumanizing a person... We have all sorts of ways to take people down, and what is often forgotten, when we vilanize others is that we're inflating our own self worth... It is our beliefs about our selves and our place in society that enable us to horrid things, which was exemplified as a theory by the Stanford Prison Experiment,  or the teacher experiment with her students about blue eyes and versus brown eyes, or the Milgram experiment, the latter proving even the best of people can be convinced to do something nasty... We're all just one 'i'm right' thought away from doing something nasty.

Are people evil? No. Ignorant. Lazy. Stupid. Most of us can qualify for any of those at some point in our lives. I know I have, even all three simultaneously. Are tulpas evil? I didn't know this was a legitimate worry here. They start off as reflections of ourselves, or our wants... We might surmise that the things we like in others are scaffold on things that we don't like so much, which is consistent with Freud and Jung, that we have some dark stuff in us... Darkness might be inherent, integral... impossible to exist without it. But, that, too, is just a belief and clearly effects the way I interact with others. Add to that our scope of the world is really small, and we don't trust easily. So, let's say I can demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that uncontrolled glitter and inappropriately disposed of straws are killing life in our oceans. You would think everyone would agree this is bad, let's better police our trash... No. We only see what we see, not the whole thing, and so it goes on until it is so bad that we have to make laws to police ourselves because we couldn't muster up enough will power to do it individually collectively.  Are we evil? Nope. Ignorant. Lazy. Stupid. Was the man who got denied a straw a mcdonalds evil for coming across the counter to beat up the clerk who denied him? Probably not. Self righteous, pig headed, blinded by his a rage and expectation due to a sense of entitlement? Absolutely. And it was damn funny that this big guy crosses the counter's boundary and the little girl on the other side beat the crap out of him. Ummm.
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#7
(01-07-2019, 05:42 AM)Ranger Wrote: I think it's interesting that you mention a balance. Even now, Cat sees herself as the villain or night and I decided to take the hero or light role. Sometimes I can be naughty, but I don't go out of my way to embrace any inner evil stuff. Cat embraces the villain thing sometimes, but she has fun with it and it makes her happy so whatever. In reality, Cat wouldn't hurt anyone. I feel bad about the distrust thing though, that sucks.

It's nice (?) to see relationship dynamics similar to ours, which even among Tulpamancers is quite unorthodox. So in your system you, the Tulpa, assume the role of the hero? Interesting. I imagine that your Host wickedness is mainly a game, not something stemmed from true maliciousness, which is healthier than our situation. Yes, the lack of trust is sad affair, but like I wrote, ours is more reality than a game and so I treat it accordingly, though we both suffered from this. We are working on this. Still, it's pretty fun most of the time.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
My progress report

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#8
(01-07-2019, 09:30 PM)Pioneer11 Wrote: It's nice (?) to see relationship dynamics similar to ours, which even among Tulpamancers is quite unorthodox. So in your system you, the Tulpa, assume the role of the hero? Interesting. I imagine that your Host wickedness is mainly a game, not something stemmed from true maliciousness, which is healthier than our situation. Yes, the lack of trust is sad affair, but like I wrote, ours is more reality than a game and so I treat it accordingly, though we both suffered from this. We are working on this. Still, it's pretty fun most of the time.

I guess it stems from less healthy ideals... My host associated herself with villains more often than heroes because she used destroy her own self image and she connected that to being evil. We are always on the same team, so the hero/villain dynamic more of a small side theme rather than the full story. My host and I never battled each other or anything like that.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
Temporary Log | Chat | Yay!
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#9
Late to the party on this one. But it's really easy to get evil tulpas happening, just have worlds which aren't candy-coated happy rainbow lands and bam, you open up the possibility for one of those denizens to become a walk-in that turns into a tulpa. And I know this is possible, because this is exactly what happened to our system before we realized anything was wrong.

So no, I disagree with this statement completely because I have a tulpa on ice that knows her past as a military project has conditioned her to become a psychopath that gets off on killing. She knows this, she knows I could help her and she's rejected any help from me, citing she doesn't want it. So until I can figure out a way to reach her in some manner, I've got her on ice because the alternative would be too much of a risk that she'd try and hurt other members of our system.
Mech: Logical side, a tactician
Circe: Emotional side, a hedonist
Mirror: A huntress

Thor: Fictive based off the Norse pantheon.
Jane: A perfectly normal woman. Honest!
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#10
(02-02-2019, 03:38 PM)WondrousFairy Wrote: Late to the party on this one. But it's really easy to get evil tulpas happening, just have worlds which aren't candy-coated happy rainbow lands and bam, you open up the possibility for one of those denizens to become a walk-in that turns into a tulpa. And I know this is possible, because this is exactly what happened to our system before we realized anything was wrong.

So no, I disagree with this statement completely because I have a tulpa on ice that knows her past as a military project has conditioned her to become a psychopath that gets off on killing. She knows this, she knows I could help her and she's rejected any help from me, citing she doesn't want it. So until I can figure out a way to reach her in some manner, I've got her on ice because the alternative would be too much of a risk that she'd try and hurt other members of our system.

The character was certainly created evil, that's not unusual, i have created evil characters. So you appreciate them for what they do and you spend a lot of time with them, like it or not, eventually they start thinking for themselves.

#1. Doesn't even mean they ever became a tulpa. They could very easily fool those tests and still not be. Even after all this time, they still don't have to be a tulpa until you accept them.

#2. It requires forcing and a bit of acceptance and fostering to be a tulpa, so you or another active system mate would have to do that while fronting. I don't believe a non-fronting member can do this without consent of the active fronter, and you're going to have a hard time trying to convince anyone here that this happened because there's too much evidence that it was probably a walk-in (requiring no creation forcing, but certainly not a tulpa until forced and accepted).

#3. So if you forced an evil character and accepted them as a tulpa and continued to force them, now what? Well, the character and the tulpa are two entirely different things, as in a thing and a person. The person (tulpa) doesn't have to accept the template (character), so they aren't evil themselves unless the fronting forcer continues to reward them for being evil, otherwise you could easily talk them out of it. I have three tulpas who were fictive, they didn't keep any of their respective backgrounds.

#4 this community doesn't deal with soulbonds, so my knowledge is minimal, but it can happen that a tulpa keeps their history and background lore just like a soulbond. I have many characters that could be turned into tulpas or soulbonds. I play with them, include them, 'force them' but with no intention to promote them to tulpa, thus none have switched and some are even stronger than my tulpas were when i accepted them. Still their history is the past, and if they want a future, they need rehabilitation or rejection of their past. They can be reformed.

#5 keeping whatever it or she is on ice is safe, if you never force her again, she's no danger. If she appeared and started causing trouble, treat her like any other intrusive thought. It happens to me all the time, especially with a couple dragons that i continue to think of. When they show up unexpectedly we fight or banish them immediately, then ignore them. It's really easy with practice.



Finally, my advice is to kerp her/it on ice, but if you want to rehabilitate her, i don't think her past matters at all. A character of mine that is not a person of her own, but still a semi-active member of our system, is one who had a horrible past, she would've been really damaged, but she is resolved that she was just the actress who played the part of her past, but it's not her past, so she's fine.

It's a rare system that even deals with non-tulpas, and we're working on guides that will address this soon. Specifically, you don't have to accept every sentient seeming thoughtform that rolls up.
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