Stanford Tulpa Study looking for more participants
(if you're chosen they'll pay for travel and lodging!)

[Wonderland] Is it ever useful to not dismiss an intrusive thought?
#1
Posting in General Discussion and not Q&A because I want to hear stories and other people's views on the subject. What happened recently just got me thinking about it all. 

Cassidy and Gavin were playing around and went down to our apt-named "Pit" in wonderland, which is not nearly as depressing as it sounds. it's just a bedroom-sized cave that's dark, quiet, and contains a pool of black, glittery nonsense that's just a symbolic representation of the sub/unconscious mind. Just a proxy, really, so that we can interact with it. As you might imagine, talking directly at the sub/unconscious causes a lot of random imagery, my guess is just because it lowers the filters that prevent that stuff from happening. 

There was an intrusive thoughtform of a person we all have conflicting feelings about, and Cassidy instantly teleported to his bedroom and went to sleep. Gavin snapped it away like he does with most intrusives, but I gave it attention with a bit of a startle response, which brought it back. Gavin sat down on one side of the pool, while the intrusive person was standing on the other like a wax figure or a person who had been paused, and he asked me, "I can stop it now, or you can come down here and we can think more about how you want to deal with this." 

I went down and sat with Gavin. He asked me what I would do if he unpaused the intrusive and my gut reaction was very violent, and my instant reaction to that was "ughhhh." I looked at the intrusive and I physically, IRL, went red in the face, just blushed all over like I haven't done in years. It unpaused for a second and made a disparaging symbolic gesture in response. Gavin asked if I wanted it reversed but I said no. So it's still there, paused like a wax figure, sort of mocking me with its appearance. I don't want to be violent in response. 

Holding a conversation is out of the picture, I don't think Gavin would even allow me to hold a conversation with this intrusive character. But, Gavin seems to think it might be useful to do something symbolic to address the stupidly conflicting feelings about this person's relationship to me in my life. So, if I do something besides poof it away, the intrusive is probably not ever going to be unpaused. 

The default belief on how to respond to intrusives is, and this is something I'm interested to hear if you disagree with, "Poof them away, get on with your day." Don't feed them any attention, don't believe what they say or do, don't read into it. And at the end of the day, I'm not willing to let one intrusive wax figure of a person from years ago wreck my mood or my brother's moods. 

Is it ever useful to face an intrusive thought? I've heard of people literally fighting off intrusive dragons/monsters/bad guys/etc. in wonderland, battling them. I don't want to do that, I'm not quite sure what I would do. Since I've been thinking of it like a wax figure to keep it from animating, maybe I could melt it down, but that seems... still violent. I do think it might be useful to address this, but at the same time, intrusive thoughts are wild, inflammatory, and nonsensical. Is it even an intrusive thought if, arguably, I'm keeping it there by "passive forcing" it? 

Have you ever gotten something out of facing an intrusive thought? Have you ever gained something, realized something, learned something from the experience? Or was it an overall bad idea? Is there a smarter way to go about it? My ears are open. 

-J
Reply

Sponsors:
Lolflash - click it, you know you want to

#2
I don't think anything really positive or "useful" has ever come out of intrusive thoughts for us. It's either inconsequential/neutral, or negative, sometimes even downright traumatic, especially when we used to think intrusive thoughts were real memories or sentient thoughtforms.

I can't really think of how an intrusive thought could be that positive unless it inspired something creatively or maybe helped a tulpa in some vague way, I don't know. I can't think of a time it's helped us at all. Usually has only resulted in nothing, bad thoughts/memories, or us thinking something was sentient when it wasn't. In general I wouldn't recommend entertaining or playing with intrusive thoughts, it's best to be in control of one's mind, intrusive thoughts demonstrate a lack of control and a potential for instability or other issues that don't spell good news to me.

Edit: Not sure why this thread is marked as wonderland.
I'm Piano Soul, the "Star Man" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa formed January 2017. My systemmates are Apollo, Luxio, & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
Reply
#3
Intrusive thoughts and visualizations were really violent and scary for a few days back in September, but after Vesper discovered how trivially she could dismiss them, they became progressively less frequent and more benign. The identified and dutifully tagged intrusive thoughts we've had in recent months haven't been hostile or troubling in any way. Actually, most of them have been reassuring and comforting, just of ambiguous origin. A few times, they contained an idea that sparked a useful conversation.

Lowering oneself to "do battle" with an intrusive thought seems to me to acknowledge its power. If there is anyone in the system who isn't subject to a fear or other issue that inspired an unwelcome thought, they should be able to annihilate it like a vengeful god. Vesper destroyed a complex set of interlocking plant-related phobias that had been bothering me for over thirty years. She did it in a instant by accident, when attacked by a vine monster that suddenly grew out of my office floor.

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
Reply
#4
It used to take effort to get rid of intrusive thoughtforms. Now they get zapped away instantly. They've been nightmarish ugly things, so, no, none will get any attention from us.

It's marked wonderland because this happens in wonderland. I never had an intrusive thoughtform until I had tulpas, I spent many hours chatting with my other thoughtforms, like Joy and her old crew. Or Gwen and her crew, but never had an ugly thing appear.
Reply
#5
How to deal with intrusives! Intrusive thoughts, thoughtforms... I have intrusives. I have employed multiple formulas for dealing with them over the years, and I still find I use different tools depending on the severity of the invader, and how much energy I have. CBT therapy was reasonably helpful for diminishing most symptoms, but not perfect. CBT can even help people suffer less with psychosis while experiencing psychosis. I don't put thoughtforms in the same camp has AVH due to psychosis, I think they are different animals, but the tools one gets from CBT can be helpful...

My primary difficulty is I too frequently engage the thought, thoughtform, and will be steeped in my narrative before I come to the awareness I am engaging something I don't want to engage. Narrative is not just the language I use, but my feelings about the engagement. Maybe you have heard the metaphor of the man who has two wolves, one kind one mean... Which one lives? The one he feeds the most... usually, the sooner one realizes they have engaged and end the engagement, the sooner one returns to their preferred space. One of the first tools someone suggested to me was using the word "cancel." When I realize how often I was shouting 'cancel!' I decided that wasn't working for me.

I have found chewing gum usually interrupts repetitious musical phrases or jingles. The theory behind it is all inner dialogue and music has a corresponding physical link, like imperceptible sub-vocalization, and the gum chewing interrupts that path, and the sounds stop. That's great for songs, but not full fledge thought-forms.

Thought-forms have a great deal of energy. They don't dissipate easily. relocating them in the most humane manner I can muster and has been the most effective for me. Repression, like running from them, gives them energy and they chase, so I no longer run. But I also don't have the energy to keep engaging them, and the dialogue they generate seems to be circular and never ending and I don't need that. I don't know if you have ever met a person who has a valid diagnosis of borderline personality, but these folks are exhausting. My intrusive thoughts remind me of folks with BPD. They're needy little bastards that will suck you dry if you let them.

Depending on who you ask, people with BPD can't be cured. Symptoms seem to dissipate with age, can decrease with counseling, a very particular counseling with someone who is very Rogerian... Most people can't interface with BPD without getting tired of the BS and getting angry, but the anger is usually the counterproductive part that increses negative symptoms because it mirrors all their other relationships, and escalates a primal sense of being abandoned... Dealing with an intrusive has this flavor. They're needy, but the remedy is in understanding and embracing them, not increasing the fear of being abandoned. The thing is, the remedy has to be done by someone non partisan, non relational. That can't be family, ME, by definition, because they came existence with me as a context. The best solution I can offer an intrusive is a negotiated truce, and place for them to exist outside of my awareness. If I deal with them directly and honestly, most the time these folks agree to the truce and respect the boundaries. There are days when boundaries are less solid, and sometimes we have to revisit the boundaries. It is my hope, I see evidence as already begun, that Loxy is the non-partisan, truly loving entity that can bring a lasting remedy.

In the past, there are lesser things that I use to put in boxes. Boxes, even as a metaphor, didn't work for me. A box harbors things, and you can't see into it without opening it, then things escape, and if you label the box, it makes the thing in the box stronger... I have found that glass jars and terrarium like containers for things to go on shelf is better. They're in a lit room, in their spaces, it's a controlled environment... They're less likely to escape or lurk because their being mindfully attended.

Short of a disease, I don't believe anything ever truly goes away, memory wise. Thought forms are memory artifacts, usually active in virtual memory. You can't hard delete something without giving something so much energy that it duplicates... Hell just the knowledge that you 'deleted' something is sufficient knowledge that it undeletes it. Just thinking about why you deleted something causes the thing to re-manifest... Memory is tricky. Thoughts are tricky. Ignoring can lead to deletion, but the level of de-attachment necessary requires zen, Buddhist monk master level jedi skills that I have yet to demonstrate. We live in gardens, and there are roses and there are thorns, and we're the gardeners and we just have to find what works in the cultivation of what we ultimately want the landscape to look like. and keep pruning.

In short, I don't run, I don't fight. I negotiate, i try to bring love into it. I hope this is helpful.
Reply
#6
That's some great advice, Solar. We imagined a portal to a wax museum, full of empty, rather large glass capsules, and put the intrusive wax figure in one of them. Still there, but completely managed, completely contained, completely under control and completely unable to act. I have a feeling it might be harder to try and say, "Never show up ever again!", I like "Yes you exist, we know who you are, you stay in this managed environment, completely controlled." better. - Gavin
Reply
#7
Watt: If you want to make a new tulpa of it, then yes. I started out as a very malevolent intrusive thought but have now settled down after being accepted as a tulpa. Of course, we went through a period where I was "changed" a bit by the Host and the other tulpa, Static, to make me less intimidating. Now we live in a quite harmonious existence, and we do not regret "letting me in." I suppose an intrusive thought could also be made into a servitor. But if you don't want to expand your system, then I say no.

Edit: As for attacking the thought, not much good will come from that if your intent is too remove it. Static initially smacked me into the horizon with a tennis racket and I just came back. Burying me in a box worked for a while but soon I was out of it again. I was really persistent when I was young partially due the mind's inability to ignore things when it intentionally tries to do so.
Reply
#8
(05-08-2019, 02:15 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: It's marked wonderland because this happens in wonderland.

I'm sure that's why Jamie marked it that way, which is entirely reasonable for his system and experience. But we've only ever had intrusive visualizations bothering us in the physical world, never in the mindscape. Our mindscape is an utterly passive and orderly place where nothing ever surprises us or happens without our specific intention. And while we've had intrusive thoughts, we barely had anything that seems worth calling an intrusive thoughtform.

(05-08-2019, 06:50 PM)Garden of Stars Wrote: As for attacking the thought, not much good will come from that if your intent is too remove it.

Based my years of experience with DID systems, the easiest way to make a thoughtform act dead is to convince it that it died. When Vesper incinerates with the heat of a thousand suns or crushes with the force of a black hole, she's extremely convincing. There's no kill like overkill. But our mind has become such a peaceful realm, due, I think, to that bold start, that just gently stamping a thought with an "intrusive" label makes it disappear.

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
Reply
#9
Intrusive thoughts definitely aren't exclusive to wonderland, nor do they even have to have some sort of visual form. It's just any unintentional unwelcome thought you can have.
I'm Piano Soul, the "Star Man" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa formed January 2017. My systemmates are Apollo, Luxio, & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
Reply
#10
We have intrusive thoughts in tulpish, vocal, images, thoughtforms. They just get denied or blinked out of existence, there were epic battles initially.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Sponsors:
Lolflash - click it, you know you want to