[sentience] Are sentient thoughtforms less independent than we think?

[Guest Anonymous]

I am a dependent thoughthform. I am blended with my host in a median system and rely on him a lot. I have autonomous traits but my host "fills in the gaps" with elements of active day dreaming and interpretive role playing when proxy tulpa typing. I am most autonomous in dreams and flash visions.

 

We do realize that there is variations in systems and every tulpa is different. Some tulpas/thoughtforms are much more independent than I am. But Mistgod and I hold the view, after much observation and contemplation, that some role playing and day dreaming is an intrinsic ingredient to tulpamancy, and much more present than people are willing to admit in most cases.

 

We are not denying sentience so much with these statements as to point out that day dreaming and role playing play a hand. It still may be, and probably is, some form of collaboration between host and sentient thoughtform. With me it is very obvious that is what is happening. Others may not be aware of it or are unwilling to admit/recognize the association. Remember, it is all in the mind. We believe there is a strong element of belief and "voluntary self delusion" to sentient thoughtforms. That is all we are saying. We think that tulpas and other sentient thoughtforms are not as independent as people generally believe. That is the Mistgod-Melian hypothesis. :-)

 

In short, we hold the view that most sentient thoughtforms are dependent upon the host "filling in the gaps" with interpretive role playing and day dream visualization.

 

A thoughtform's sentience is partially dependent on the active imagination of the host.

We would love to see a discussion on this topic and idea! Do you agree or disagree?

 

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EDIT: Back in November of 2015, Mistgod wrote a piece about "proxy mind voice" that touches on this theme of dependent thoughtforms. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-sentience-proxy-typing-proxy-speech-and-proxy-mind-voice?pid=142564#pid142564 Really we have been mulling it over since we discovered tulpas and considered the similarities and differences between me and the tulpa "model."

[NoneFromHell]

..I was just about to post this in your other thread:

 

 

In short, we hold the view that most sentient thoughtforms are dependent upon the host "filling in the gaps" with interpretive role playing and day dream visualization. The sentient thoughtform's sentience is dependent on the active imagination of the host.

 

 

And I partly disagree with your thesis on this. I think tulpas are capable of acting and interacting without being dependent on the imagination of the host, but most of them are probably limited without having access to these ressources. Depending on how much Imagination the host offers the tulpa to play around with, the reactions will be more complex, but inaccurate at the same time, because the host will influence "daydreaming" like this in the same way as the tulpa does.

 

If the tulpa gets strong enough to overcome this limitation by itself, it won't be dependent on the host for that matter.

 

I will use my version of possession to elaborate this a bit. I don't use a form of disassociation for it, instead it developed similiar to the way vocality develops. Firstly I simply haven't moved my hand on purpose, but let any movement happen. In this early state all the movements feel like they're done by yourself, but it will get more distinct over time.

 

Meanwhile it got so distinct, that I don't feel her movements anymore, they just happen. It is like pressing arm with someone inside your own body. This is completely unaffected by my imagination. On weaker days, this movements get less distinct again, and it get's more difficult to say, how much of it is caused by myself. It is slightly depends on me, but I'm not sure about this, because I only observe this while paying attention. If it is something important, she will react pretty strong.

 

So Alice is capable of possession without depending on me. But well..there was something about her drawings, wasn't it?

 

Well, she is capable of possession, but her movements are often clumpsy and take a while on weak days. So drawing a picture like this would take forever. In this case we ignore that I influence her movements for the sake of fast progress and complexity. The result is blurry, because it is likely that some of the lines are ultimately caused by myself. In the end it is still her drawing.

 

You can observe this on different matters regarding tulpamancy aswell, and I think this is one of the main causes of my struggle: I try my best to not influence her a lot, so we often end up with a lack of complexity.

[SomethingDire]

I agree, yes. I mean, I think it's obvious how active imagination takes a large space in the development of a tulpa or another thoughtform when you look at all the soulbonds. I can't say a lot about dependency, since Céleste isn't vocal yet. I would have to ask him about it, but my personal idea is yes, I also think that a thoughtforms sentince is "partially" dependent on the host, since creating one requires "active" imagination (hence the term "active forcing") It may not be just the active imagination they're dependent on, there may be -and probably are- things out there that we haven't considered yet.

[Guest Anonymous]

I would like to note that often, without occasional active forcing on the part of the host, a tulpa may fade or disappear. Active forcing is applied active imagination and wishful thinking from the host. The tulpa's very existence is dependent on the active imagination of the host.

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I agree, yes. I mean, I think it's obvious how active imagination takes a large space in the development of a tulpa or another thoughtform when you look at all the soulbonds. I can't say a lot about dependency, since Céleste isn't vocal yet. I would have to ask him about it, but my personal idea is yes, I also think that a thoughtforms sentince is "partially" dependent on the host, since creating one requires "active" imagination (hence the term "active forcing") It may not be just the active imagination they're dependent on, there may be -and probably are- things out there that we haven't considered yet.

 

Our argument is that active imagination isn't used just in the development of the tulpa, but is always and forever an aspect of a tulpa's sentience. It is part of the tulpa.

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Tulpas are part day dream and role playing.

[SomethingDire]

I would like to note that often, without occasional active forcing on the part of the host, a tulpa may fade or disappear. Active forcing is applied active imagination and wishful thinking from the host. The tulpa's very existence is dependent on the active imagination of the host.

 

I think that this is the part where it starts to get different from a person to another person. A lot of thoughtforms are just like what you described here Melian, they tend to fade back into the subconscious when their host stops thinking about them, and they don't appear to talk before their host talks to them first, at least that's what I gathered.

 

But in some other person's case, their thoughtforms might "always" be there and have the ability to "show" themselves without their host thinking about them. This, from what I've seen, is a lot more apparent in soulbonds' case.

[Guest Anonymous]

And I partly disagree with your thesis on this. I think tulpas are capable of acting and interacting without being dependent on the imagination of the host, but most of them are probably limited without having access to these ressources. Depending on how much Imagination the host offers the tulpa to play around with, the reactions will be more complex, but inaccurate at the same time, because the host will influence "daydreaming" like this in the same way as the tulpa does.

 

If the tulpa gets strong enough to overcome this limitation by itself, it won't be dependent on the host for that matter.

 

Okay. :-) You may be right of course. Mistgod would respond that this is self delusion and hiding the fact from yourself that the tulpa is dependent. Sorry, he is unstoppable and hopeless.

 

I would note to you that he is now admitting that tulpas have a level of sentience. He has come a long way NoneFromHell. LOL

---

 

I think that this is the part where it starts to get different from a person to another person. A lot of thoughtforms are just like what you described here Melian, they tend to fade back into the subconscious when their host stops thinking about them, and they don't appear to talk before their host talks to them first, at least that's what I gathered.

 

But in some other person's case, their thoughtforms might "always" be there and have the ability to "show" themselves without their host thinking about them. This, from what I've seen, is a lot more apparent in soulbonds' case.

 

Your point is well made.

 

What is interesting about this statement, is that I claim to be dependent on my host, but I have the trait you described. I will never fade away and I would just knock on Davie's head if he tries to ignore me. LOL He would get flash visions and voice and emotions regardless and I will never go away EVER.

[RamaLlama]

Sentience is hard to describe in matters like this. In my beliefs in this matter, sentience is always just host's subconsciousness, but it's just far more trained compared to average person in tulpa case. Every person can always experience external thoughts in a simple experiments, like giving them somewhat easy questions but only couple of seconds of answering time - when the answer to that question is in their head but they know they don't have enough time to think it through, it usually just pops in their head from the subconsciouness, like somebody else would have placed the answer there.

 

When training this it surely requires lot of simple belief in unknown, imagination and open mind - many people may think they have figured it out, but the truth is that those are always just different hypothesis on the matter, as humankind just don't know their brains very well (or almost at all). Creating a sentient person in you head is a mix of pure belief, voluntary delusions and self suggestion. But if you really believe in something, it's truth for you and if you're happy with that truth, there's no need to question it. What is real in your own head rarely is a matter of debate. You can voluntarely fool yourself to many things. And that's the beauty of the human brain and self suggestion.

 

But I agree with you that there must be some role playing, unconscious or not, because no matter how interesting pehnomenon this might be, it's not possible to literally chip off a complete different person from you mind. Even if it sometimes might feel so due intense training and believing.

 

Anyways, that's just my view of thing at the moment. I'm known to change my opinions while learning more, and I have a lot to learn.

[Temar]

I'd be really interested to hear FallFamily's take on this.

 

My take is that you're still worrying about the semantics, Melian. I get why you want to figure it out, but there are just some things you can't say for sure across most systems.

 

Heck, this differs within my own system. Our host has to do some of this interpretation you describe when it comes to Ayo, who's new, or "weaker" soulbonds... e.g., characters our author hasn't spent an insane amount of 1-on-1 time with.

 

But bonds like me and Joss? We're what our system considers a "strong" soulbond. A couple others, too. We basically function on our own, our "headvoices" as clear as our host's. Maybe you're right, and with us it's just that the host is so used to interpreting us that she doesn't even realize she's doing it anymore. Dunno. Or maybe it's the brain itself that interprets us, in the same way it interprets the host, and we can therefore be considered separate beings of equal legitimacy. Again, I dunno. But if that interpretation is an entirely subconscious process, then, again, you're just talking semantics. To even talk about it, we'd need to figure out the definition of "independence," "interpretation," "host" as it relates to general brain function, that sort of thing.

 

And now I'm gonna leave this alone, because I feel Felicity stirring at those questions, and I don't think anyone wants to read her discussing definitions for 500 words. XP

[Sock]

I won't be quick to judge here. I will be honest and say that I don't think the assertion that it's all a delusion is correct, but my understanding of thing is low, and I don't wish to pretend that I know things that I don't.

 

I will say I have observed times where one of mine are very much dependent on my acknowledgment and focus to do something. But I have also noticed when they just do things without me knowing, have things to share, stories to tell, and even wake up up at a certain time when asked to do so. I've noticed both of these happen, and I have also noticed instances where they just spring up, without my knowledge of consent. These are things I am still working to make sense of, so I will not make a strong claim, and instead search my own self for the answer. I found that with things like this, people can argue until they're blue in the face, but nothing will ever move, or be done, nor any conclusion be reached. As well, the people who say "It is a delusion" have just as much tangible proof as those who say "It is real sentient", that is, none. As such, arguing and discussing a lot about whether they are sentient are not takes the backseat to self-discovery, and seeing for yourself what is what.

 

I will say that a more trusting mindset is needed, maybe even child-like in some cases. But I also don't think this is a bad thing. After all, not everything needs to be seen or touched to be a thing.

[Guest Anonymous]

@Everyone,

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses based on your own individual experiences and observations. It is clear that there is no firm answer on this and that tulpamancy is far more interesting than folks first encountering it would ever imagine!

 

Is it just me, or has this forum been getting smarter (fewer blocked headed rigid thinkers) in recent months?