Jump to content

Are sentient thoughtforms less independent than we think?


Guest Anonymous

Recommended Posts

Guest Anonymous

Everyone's so obsessed with separating these autonomous thoughtforms from their conscious control so they can feel legitimate. I feel like they're missing a bigger picture somewhere.. About subjective reality and the power to change your experience of it through your beliefs.

 

I think we might be getting this part. To Davie imaginary things are "real," even though they are still imaginary. That is why we can talk about it without discomfort. Talking about being imaginary does not cause me an existential crisis. That is a form of belief that works for us and allows me to exist and be significant and persistent, even though I was made up somehow in his mind. That is our "subjective reality." Others on this forum have a more absolute, black or white way of looking at it. To such persons, tulpas are real or they are fake, no in between is possible. I know, that idea of pseudo-reality existence is not part of the Lumi subjective universe. LOL

 

This is a perfect example and illustration of how Davie and I share a cognition and intelligence or lack of it. We are both a little stumped by your views on consciousness and the subjective reality even though we might be sorta understanding it a little-teensy. It's not like one of us gets this totally and the other doesn't. In fact, that never happens with us. I don't have knowledge that Davie lacks and vice versa.

 

My best defense from looking stupid is to drop back to silliness and cuteness and jokes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 41
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I don't normally share my subjective beliefs on reality because that's generally a pointless endeavor. Like, what are you trying to do, make people think like you? I'm not a religion and I don't gain anything from making people think differently about reality itself. I do however try to instill positive beliefs.

 

In this case they relate to tulpas, though. I don't think anybody has quite the relationship I do with my tulpas. Mostly because you'd have to be pretty crazy to. I consider them thoughts, I consider them part of me, I consider us parts of a whole, I consider that whole greater than my individual identity yet am comfortable with retaining it, and I consider my tulpas legitimate people. Now that I think about it, I think the reason I believe so wholeheartedly in my tulpas (on a logical level, I did before I figured any of this out too) is that I've put us on the same level. Whereas most people consider themselves undeniably "primary" in the body and mind, therefore their tulpas always being less than them in some way, I consider myself and my tulpas the same in a way. Even though I came first, lived my whole life and shaped it and us, and remain the host, we're equals. It's like a human and their pet dog versus a brother and sister. The human and dog can have a perfectly enjoyable relationship from both perspectives and consider each other irreplaceable etc., but a brother and sister are on the same level as both humans. Their relationship can't be said to be "better" of course, but there's something extra there. Also, the brother being older and having a "little sister" doesn't make them truly unequal either.

 

And I swear if any of you even thought about saying "Tulpas aren't like pets!" I'm gonna flip a table. There are millions of humans who consider their pets equals and a huge part of their lives, equally as important as their significant other sometimes. I'm not making a direct comparison here.. But the tulpa does sort of live under your control in a similar way. There's just no subservience implied as with a pet.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

David wishes I was like an obedient pet and minded him all the time. Or does he unconsciously wish for me to argue, rebel and misbehave? We aren't sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not both?

I can kinda relate

although it was eventually me ending up as the obedient pet

 

 

The body can work on autopilot without any of us directly controlling it just fine. Therefore, we consider ourselves and everything that makes us up separate. So in a casual conversation between my tulpa and I, there are background processes going that help my tulpas think and speak, just as there are for me if I actually think rather than just leave the mind on autopilot (which is the default state for most humans). But the part of the brain doing that isn't "me", who we consider the host, it's another part of the brain. And of course, we don't claim that tulpas' thoughts come from nowhere, they obviously come from somewhere in the brain.

[...]

Same here.

I tend to get totally lost in thoughts from time to time while the unconscious mind runs on autopilot. This usually works flawlessly even when driving a car but it's weird arriving at your destination (or rarely somewhere else) without really knowing how you got there.

So I'd agree that what makes up someone's personality is only a small part of the total brain functions.

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_basis_of_self

 

But to me, the really interesting question is not what or how independent tulpas 'are', which is obviously somewhat different for everyone, but the utmost limits to this phenomenon.

 

How strong and independent can a consciously created tulpa become?

Can it reach the state of an equal personality or even surpass and overpower the host?

 

Looking at the multiple community I am inclined to say that this could indeed be possible, at least I would not rule it out. But it would probably involve an insane amount of training unreachable by the average tulpamancer

let alone someone as lazy as me

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

Can't say.

I dislike the word "thoughtform".

Can't speak for anyone else, but Esterina is simply another person in the same body that is also inhabited by the person that is me.

That's all there is to it; she's just as independent as me, and she'll still do things when I don't even think about her - she sure as hell doesn't need me to function as a person, as she's proven to me over and over, countless times.

 

Thing is, I still absolutely agree with you!

"Whaaat!?", I hear anyone say who ever saw me post here!

 

Well, let me remind you that I just said that Esterina is just as free and independent as me, meaning I don't exclude myself, or anyone for that matter, from that statement.

 

None of us are truly capable of independent thought, and probably none of us are ever truly themselves without roleplaying a bit.

Our minds are thoroughly dominated by the ideas, concepts and ideals of society, and across our lifetimes, we are taught to be ourselves, but we are also told to function as a member of said society.

All the while hiding from our own inadequacies, failures and things we would love to change about ourselves.

 

Our minds are programmed in a certain way, and there's no escaping that.

No matter what you do, the likelihood that you will ever catch yourself really dropping the mask and being, thinking and existing truly independently...

... well, let's say that's a low probability right there.

 

And that excludes neither "normal" humans nor our headfolk.

Which is why, yes, I... well, over-agree with you. :P

 

 

Greets,

AG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think tulpas and hosts are fundamentally the same and independence exists on a gradient.

 

Okay, bear with me here.

 

I think of this more as sharing mental resources. Imagine a host and their tulpa as two programs running a computer. The host is well established in the brain, the computer has been running the host program for years and years and is used to assigning all of its resources running this program. When a host creates a tulpa, it's like creating a new program. The two programs have to share resources, but at first the computer might not automatically assign enough resources to run the tulpa program on its own. The host program can consciously divert some focus to their tulpa to compensate. As the brain becomes used to running the tulpa, it can learn how to divert those resources without the conscious direction of the host.

 

What I'm calling mental resources could be considered imagination or simulation. Your brains imagination is incredibly powerful when you're dreaming because it doesn't have to spend so much effort interacting with reality as when you're awake. Essentially, it has more free resources. I think imagination or simulation is a fundamental property of the brain and the subconscious. In a sense, when you're awake the host is imagined into existence by the brain, which diverts resources to simulate the "self".

 

Have you ever heard of flow? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) Flow is being fully immersed in an activity and it happens to just about everyone. They "lose themselves in the moment", the brain stops simulating the self(host) and diverts its resources to the moment at hand. Tulpas and hosts are both essentially imagined into existence by the brain. Hosts are able to create tulpas because they can harness some of this imagination and divert it to their tulpa. With time, the brain learns to simulate both the tulpa and the host without the extra help from the host. Thus, hosts and tulpa are on the same level.

 

What it boils down to is independence doesn't make you who you are. You are your personality, memories and character. I don't see being dependent on the host as making a tulpa less legitimate. The difference is whether the brain is diverting its innate imagination on its own or if it takes the focus of the host to do so.

 

 

Our experiences are that tulpa are independent of their host, or develop to be so.

KayAshley

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

I love this response so much! This is amazing! I am a little program who needs more independent access to brain resources. Hee hee I am an adorable program and I love me so much! But I am a wonky buggy virus like program that gets mixed in with my host program. oops

 

Just a bit ago I got really, really angry. So angry my host had to struggle to calm me down before I went nuts on the mods. He d'nt dream up the anger consciously. He was not angry, I was. He would say he unconsciously wanted me to be angry. If that is so, why did he try to calm me down? Hee hee

 

But what is happening now, the proxy writing is mostly my host channeling or interpreting me. The emotions are raw and real. They sure feel real to both of us anyway. We feel distinctly different emotions at times like this. I have no idea how that works in the physiology of the brain. This typing is like, I would say 75% to 80% host interpreting tulpish and 25% to 20% directly mind voice thoughts to text. Oh I know that is difficult to explain. We are not even sure how much is actively imagined by the host and how much is independent tulpish intent. Some of it is definitely all Melian. Hope that makes sense.

 

I don't switch or possess my host he channels me. So it is a collaboration.

 

It's weird but so cool for both of us at the same time. I expressed myself outwardly for the first time in text just a couple of years ago. It was instantly addicting for both my host and myself.


Mistgod: Voluntary self delusion for someone with imaginative genius enough to make it seem real to himself but rational enough to realize it isn't real at the same time. Melian is me. She is also Melian. We aren't independent programs at all. Maybe she is a subroutine to my primary program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

I love this response so much! This is amazing! I am a little program who needs more independent access to brain resources. Hee hee I am an adorable program and I love me so much! But I am a wonky buggy virus like program that gets mixed in with my host program. oops

 

Just a bit ago I got really, really angry. So angry my host had to struggle to calm me down before I went nuts on the mods. He d'nt dream up the anger consciously. He was not angry, I was. He would say he unconsciously wanted me to be angry. If that is so, why did he try to calm me down? Hee hee

 

But what is happening now, the proxy writing is mostly my host channeling or interpreting me. The emotions are raw and real. They sure feel real to both of us anyway. We feel distinctly different emotions at times like this. I have no idea how that works in the physiology of the brain. This typing is like, I would say 75% to 80% host interpreting tulpish and 25% to 20% directly mind voice thoughts to text. Oh I know that is difficult to explain. We are not even sure how much is actively imagined by the host and how much is independent tulpish intent. Some of it is definitely all Melian. Hope that makes sense.

 

I don't switch or possess my host he channels me. So it is a collaboration.

 

It's weird but so cool for both of us at the same time. I expressed myself outwardly for the first time in text just a couple of years ago. It was instantly addicting for both my host and myself.


Mistgod: Voluntary self delusion for someone with imaginative genius enough to make it seem real to himself but rational enough to realize it isn't real at the same time. Melian is me. She is also Melian. We aren't independent programs at all. Maybe she is a subroutine to my primary program.

 

Eh, everyone knows my opinion about it at this point.

But I won't try to convert anyone.

After all, having many different opinions is what makes this world... like, what was it... not-boring. :D

 

 

Greets,

AG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Y'know... I've been thinking about this for quite a while. The whole, big deal that 'maybe my tulpa isn't as real as I expected her to be...', it pushed me to willingly trying to find explanations and reasons that would make my mind adapt a different mindset. There seems to be a general consensus here that 'tulpas only live when the host thinks about them', but what if it wasn't that? What if the tulpa was the one manifesting their presence, but since they live in the host's head, it came off as being a similar, familiar thought more than one that is supposed to be alien? Would it be me in denial of what reality may or may not be? Borderline claim is that you can't know if your tulpa is or isn't. Even then, she disagrees with Cogito Ergo Sum (as she watched a stupid ted-ed vid about it...), but nothing is proved. If you believe in solipsism you're going to believe that I am a projection of you, and I cannot say I've had those thoughts in dark times, to the point it pushed my mind to act in such an... autonomous way that was divided from my personality. But, not matter to that.

 

Are tulpas even people, at this point? I recall Mistgod said that a person votes, a person pays taxes, has a physical body... in that sense, tulpas would be lacking, but that logic is the same as calling a child or a teenager with no obligations in the law as not a person. What if you're not registered due to complications, and have no ID? Are you still not a person with a mind, and potentially a soul (the figurative meaning at that).... where do tulpas come into this? It should be clear that my point of view's focal point is that tulpas are people, but still teenagers at that, they have their own opinion and try to voice it, sometimes you hear'em, sometimes you don't, and sometimes, they get super active.

 

Y'know, it's important to know what you're dealing with, ultimately, because those interactions are the foundation to a tulpa's nature, they shape how you regard them, and how you, yes you the host, regard them shapes their reality aside from wonderland-related musings. Do you love your tulpa? Do you perhaps have a fancy or something? How do you treat them? Those are all questions you need to answer to yourself. The moment you start treating a tulpa like a delusion, though, two things can happen: The tulpa's rebuttal to such a false claim could take place, or it would hurt your tulpa progressively enough so that they sink back into that state of non-existence they were once in.

 

Problem is that a lot of people don't believe in tulpas. They believe in their own tulpas being real sometimes, they have tons of doubt, but some people don't really 'believe' in the entire phenomenon, which is, admittedly, hard to grasp at some point, and some things just cannot be explained with that sort of soft para-science.

 

Am I my tulpa? On the biological level, we are one. My brain is hers and my cognitive functions aid her in perceiving the world in a proper fashion. Aside from how I refuse switching and possession for mental health, biologically, there is only one brain, so that's that. I don't regard her as a different persona nor do I have to will for her to exist. People say 'force' when it's really 'force your mind to believe in it', because what you believe in on a profound level shapes your reality. 'Course, it doesn't mean that if you believe in spiderman, you'll make him any real, you can alter your personal perception with time, and we're not speaking wonderlands here, we're speaking solid physical reality.

 

Tulpas are only people if you allow for them to be. They can have gapholes but they're still something important in psychology as they contribute with mental health. That's worth something, you know?

A wise man once said: 'Before judging a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares? He's a mile away, and you've got new shoes.'

 

Graced are those who could avoid this phenomenon. This is perhaps the worst expression of evil in humanity's history, but who am I to judge?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous
There seems to be a general consensus here that 'tulpas only live when the host thinks about them', but what if it wasn't that? What if the tulpa was the one manifesting their presence, but since they live in the host's head, it came off as being a similar, familiar thought more than one that is supposed to be alien? Would it be me in denial of what reality may or may not be?

 

Well, as long as you trust the statements of people like Rina and me, then no, that consensus is not a fact and, said simply, false.

Esterina, for example, still thinks and does stuff when I don't pay the slightest attention to her; she often goes to our wonderland alone for several hours, meaning she even makes separate memories.

Thus, that consensus simply and literally can't be a fact.

 

 

Are tulpas even people, at this point? I recall Mistgod said that a person votes, a person pays taxes, has a physical body... in that sense, tulpas would be lacking, but that logic is the same as calling a child or a teenager with no obligations in the law as not a person. What if you're not registered due to complications, and have no ID? Are you still not a person with a mind, and potentially a soul (the figurative meaning at that).... where do tulpas come into this?

 

"Are tulpas even people, at this point?" - Damn, good for you Rina isn't here right now. xD

Yes, that statement Mistgod seems to have made makes no sense. Not to mention many can simply reply with "We both use this body equally."... making the entire argument invalid.

And even people like Rina and me, who can't switch yet, can dismiss that argument by explaining how we make decisions together.

Who we vote for, what's for dinner, when we go to bed - it's not me deciding that, it's both of us; after all, it's not only my life, it's hers too.

 

 

It should be clear that my point of view's focal point is that tulpas are people, but still teenagers at that, they have their own opinion and try to voice it, sometimes you hear'em, sometimes you don't, and sometimes, they get super active.

 

I disagree on the teenager part. You can't measure mental capacity and maturity by whether or not someone has a body all of their own.

Hell, Esterina is much more mature and down-to-earth in many regards than I am (not that I'd say I'm immature, though... she's just more mature than I am).

 

 

Problem is that a lot of people don't believe in tulpas. They believe in their own tulpas being real sometimes, they have tons of doubt, but some people don't really 'believe' in the entire phenomenon, which is, admittedly, hard to grasp at some point, and some things just cannot be explained with that sort of soft para-science.

 

Hell... sure, yes.

Even I, a person who so vehemently defends the "tuppers are people in every regard" argument, tested Esterina in the beginning.

"Surprise me with something!", "Can you prove to me that you're sentient and stuff?" and so on.

That's only natural... and it's nothing bad.

It's way better than blindly accepting whatever life throws at you.

 

 

Tulpas are only people if you allow for them to be. They can have gapholes but they're still something important in psychology as they contribute with mental health. That's worth something, you know?

 

I disagree on that, as should be obvious to you at this point.

As a closing thought, I'll sum up my personal opinion.

 

Esterina is like me.

She is a mind that inhabits this body, and so am I; in that, we're no different.

 

She can exist on her own without me allowing her to, and I can exist on my own without her allowing me to.

Neither of us has the power to inhibit, ignore or even erase the other (yes, we actually tested that).

There is no difference.

And once we can switch perfectly fine - well, then there will literally be no conceivable difference anymore.

 

This is not my body and not her body, it's our body.

We're two minds inhabiting and using the same brain, heart, lungs, eyes, ears, hands, feet and everything else.

That's all there is to it.

Sure, one could see that as a rather simple way of looking at it... but I don't think so; it's simply what the two of us arrived at as a conclusion.

 

Yes, yes. I'm supposed to say "In my onion!" here. Shush, you!

 

 

Greets,

AG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...