Antikythera

How strong of a correlation do you notice between your and your tulpa's emotions?

What's the correlation between your and your tulpa's emotions?  

25 members have voted

  1. 1. What's the correlation between your and your tulpa's emotions?

    • I notice a relatively strong positive correlation between our emotions—when I feel a certain way, my tulpa is quite likely to feel similarly.
      8
    • I notice a relatively strong negative correlation between our emotions—when I feel a certain way, the other is quite likely to feel differently.
      0
    • I notice a relatively weak correlation between our emotions, but my tulpa's emotions are not static overall—our emotions are roughly independent, though we both have considerable variation over time.
      12
    • My tulpa is almost always in a positive emotional state, regardless of my own.
      5
    • My tulpa is almost always in a negative emotional state, regardless of my own.
      0


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I encourage you to read this post before answering, if you haven't already at this point.

 

I phrased this question as directed at hosts because of the thread title length limit, but obviously I consider tulpas' input valuable as well.

 

I'd like to open a psychological, physiological, and sociological discussion about this, since I haven't seen the topic addressed directly before. I'm curious about how typical my and Lotus' emotional relationship is. I'm bipolar, so in comparison to most people, my emotional state is considerably more neurochemistry-dependent, unpredictable, and internally driven. My mental state can change abruptly and with no or minimal apparent (external) causes (and recently, it's begun cycling worriyngly quickly, causing a lot of turbulence between us). So, I'm curious what this is like for more emotionally level and neurotypical brains. Maybe this could give us a bit more data about which parts of the brain are "shared" and which parts are "separated" or "duplicated" (not that it's nearly that simple).

 

I'll go a bit more in detail about the options:

 

1) If there's a positive correlation, that means, for example, your tulpa is more likely to share in your joy and commiserate with you when you're down. I Am Not A Neurochemist, but here's an educated guess at an etiological explanation: Let's drastically oversimplify and say that that emotion X is caused by neurotransmitter CX—crudely, more CX makes you feel X more strongly. Then this option is suggestive of host/tulpa divergence happening "above"/"after" the emotions "happen". In other words, your mind interprets neurotransmitters and external events into some kind of pre-emotive signal, which is handed off to the two of you to subjectivize in your own ways. Maybe this is even a piece of evidence for (in your case at least) the host/tulpa separation being more in the mind than in the brain.

 

2) If there's a negative correlation, that means that you and your tulpa are more likely to experience contrary emotions. Maybe this looks like your tulpa typically making an (organic, not forced or pragmatic) effort to cheer you up when you're feeling low, or feeling more comfortable expressing their own worries/problems/vulnerabilities/weaknesses when things are going well for you. Again, I Am Not A Neurochemist, but maybe with the above toy model, this means something like "there's only so much CX to go around". You get some and your tulpa gets some; you don't both "get" all of it. Then this option is suggestive of the host/tulpa divergence happening "below"/"before" emotions "happen". This could be a piece of evidence that, in your case, the host/tulpa separation takes place more in the brain than above.

 

3) This is the response to choose if you don't notice a strong correlation and your tulpa has considerable variation of their own. Your tulpa feels good when things they like happen, and bad when things they don't like happen, and it's not strongly related to your own feelings. This probably becomes more likely the more different the two of you are. Of course, in a relationship as intimate as a host/tulpa one, your emotions will rub off on each other plenty, but this options means you feeling one way almost never implies (is strong evidence for) your tulpa feeling the same or the opposite way. Maybe this could suggest that the host/tulpa divergence happens even "deeper" than the previous option. Something like the possibility that you and your tulpa have your own entire neurotransmitter production facilities... but with the (admittedly layman!) knowledge I have, that honestly sounds extremely, extremely unrealistic. Please don't feel like this is necessarily the "ideal" answer, or that you're doing your tulpa a disservice or insulting their independence by not choosing it; after all, neurochemicals are the (proximate) cause of our emotions, at least those of meatfolk (see below), and they are physical things that exist in finite quantities. Everyone knows this, but it can't be reinforced enough when you're interested in understanding the phenomenon scientifically: you and your tulpa live in the same brain.

 

4 & 5) These are the options if your tulpa has an almost entirely stable emotional state, with little variation. Maybe they're just always cheery or dreary. This suggests (to me) that their emotions could depend much less on neurochemistry and are more fundamental parts of their personality. Maybe your tulpa just doesn't care much for, say, serotonin, and their thoughts and actions are more intrinsic/learned behaviors instead. I definitely don't think this delegitimizes a tulpa, or suggests that they're more "fake"or just a persona, because:

  • There's a huge amount of variation in how stable the emotional states of different meatfolk are anyway (believe me).
  • Emotions are fairly fundamental to the human mind/experience, but I see no reason they would be fundamental to every (kind of) mind (i.e., that you couldn't have something reasonably called a sapient "mind" without them).
  • Furthermore, some system similar to emotions would probably be pretty common overall, because of how useful it is to natural selection, but tulpas themselves are not really the product the of natural selection, only their hardware is.

Depending on how independent and dynamic your tulpa is in other ways, this could say something about what "bare minimum" components a general tulpa comprises (though of course family resemblance is relevant to that question). This could also hint at to what degree a tulpa's mental infrastructure has to look the same as the host's, and how qualitatively differently their organizational/hierarchical schemes could be from a "neurotypical" human's.

 

Also, please keep in mind when responding that happiness is not the only positive emotion, and sadness not the only negative. Consider how your tulpa reacts when you feel love, or peacefulness, or hope, or anger, or jealousy, or fear.

 

There is sociological interpretation to be done here as well. Different people vary in how much they emotionally benefit from interacting with people with different emotional states. Some people, when depressed, find the most efficacious thing to pull them together in a friend who helps solve their problems are convince them things aren't so bad; sometimes, you just need someone to commiserate with and vent to and ramble at, and you just need to hear something like "Yeah, wow, that's freaking terrible, I'm so sorry you're going through this", meeting you on a similar level of emotions. So, I think the answer to this question could depend on how well your tulpa recognizes your emotional needs and how invested they are in helping you through tough times.

 

I'll withhold my predictions about the response distribution until after some responses come in—it's no double-blind, but it's a step in the right methodological direction. Any and all input is welcome.

 

Thanks for answering!


Physicist, mathematician, philosopher.

Vessel of uncountably many passions.

 

Tulpa: Lotus Ponens.

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The third option doesn't sound like it means the same thing you said it does. When I read over them, I thought "You left out an option for the tulpa's emotions being completely independent - yet not always positive or negative - from the host's". But it's the one I chose based on your description of it.

 

Anyways, differs between us, technically speaking. We all have our own independent emotions and such, for the purpose of your question. Yet as individuals our emotions may compare to our host's differently. I'm utterly unrelated to how my host feels, even if we match up sometimes. Lucilyn and Reisen are "always happy" with no correlation to our host. Flandre for a long time relied heavily on how our host felt for how she felt, though recently she's been more happy overall and likely to try and cheer up our host rather than be upset along with (because of) him.

 

But that's got nothing to do with her being a tulpa per se. They're simply very emotionally close, and Flandre relies more on him for emotional support than we do. Our emotions "correlate" with our host's in the way any two humans' would - if your friend loses a loved one, you may full well share in their sadness. But that's empathy, not an actual connection. As tulpas go, the most developed ones seem almost entirely independent of their host's overall emotional wellbeing. Many have been able to help their hosts with depression. But along the same lines, being around someone that's just that down for that long can bring you down too. To that extent - tulpas do tend to be "around" their host more than any other person, so perhaps they're more vulnerable to that. I have not personally seen any give in to their host's depression however.


Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.

All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.

Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Guest Anonymous

Melian is usually almost always positive and upbeat. She does have moods and tantrums, but those don't correlate with my emotions, they are independent of me. We have independent emotional reactions to things and feel differently about certain things. I have experienced completely opposite feelings (I can sense her emotions). There have been times when I laughed at something that sent her into a rage or made her irritated and indignant, for instance.

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This is an interesting question, and one that I guess I've been wondering a bit before. It's a shame more people likely won't answer it, but you'd be surprised how votes trickle in even when threads are seemingly buried, so check back in a while.

 

 

1) If there's a positive correlation, that means, for example, your tulpa is more likely to share in your joy and commiserate with you when you're down. I Am Not A Neurochemist, but here's an educated guess at an etiological explanation: Let's drastically oversimplify and say that that emotion X is caused by neurotransmitter CX—crudely, more CX makes you feel X more strongly. Then this option is suggestive of host/tulpa divergence happening "above"/"after" the emotions "happen". In other words, your mind interprets neurotransmitters and external events into some kind of pre-emotive signal, which is handed off to the two of you to subjectivize in your own ways. Maybe this is even a piece of evidence for (in your case at least) the host/tulpa separation being more in the mind than in the brain.

 

This is the option I gave, and I also have no technical background here. With that said, what I'd note strongly for my case is how much it ties into possession; our emotions are much more strongly correlated when my tulpa is possessing. Or, that's not really right; she will feel the emotion, but not "have" it like your phrasing implies - not sharing in misery, but feeling it. You could say that the emotions have a body load, which affects whoever is in control.

 

That lines up fine with the neurotransmitter thingy, except I guess instead of feeling the emotion directly you feel it through the body instead (or I do). But I'm not sure, it's just that that's the most noticeable characteristic of things to me. Maybe it's just psychosomatic.

 

 

3) This is the response to choose if you don't notice a strong correlation and your tulpa has considerable variation of their own. [...] Maybe this could suggest that the host/tulpa divergence happens even "deeper" than the previous option.

 

I agree. You also proposed for 4&5 that

This suggests (to me) that their emotions could depend much less on neurochemistry and are more fundamental parts of their personality. Maybe your tulpa just doesn't care much for, say, serotonin, and their thoughts and actions are more intrinsic/learned behaviors instead.

The same could be true for this case (3), or for case 2, or for any case, really. Partly it's a non-answer in that regard, but I guess it seems reasonable to me.

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Our emotions are pretty much independent, but I have noticed that Elise's physiologic arousal state is linked to my own. Which is strange because she's the only one I share this connection with.


"Science isn't about why, science is about why not?" -Cave Johnson

Tulpae: Luna, Elise, Naomi

My progress report

 

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Luna usually approximates my moods (ex. if I'm happy, she's at the same level or slightly above/below).

 

Sol spends most of his time in standby mode (he's fully alert, though he appears to be sleeping).

When he becomes active he almost always starts off in a calm/neutral mood.

On the rare occasions that Luna does deviate, he seems to be influenced by her.

In regards to me, he's independent.

 

I'm not sure if any of this qualifies as "special bonds", or if it's just run of the mill sympathy/empathy.

It's hard to say... maybe a little bit of both.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

Host: SubCon | Tulpas: Sol, Luna, Alice, Little One, Beast and Solune (me) | Servitors: Odonata, Guardian

 

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2) If there's a negative correlation, that means that you and your tulpa are more likely to experience contrary emotions. Maybe this looks like your tulpa typically making an (organic, not forced or pragmatic) effort to cheer you up when you're feeling low, or feeling more comfortable expressing their own worries/problems/vulnerabilities/weaknesses when things are going well for you.

 

Coming from another person with abnormal brain chemistry, this doesn't seem to be the case. When I'm having an absolutely terrible day, Zen is usually unhappy as well. This is odd, as I perceive him as rather apathetic in nature. This brings up an interesting point, however: my mood seems to effect him more physically than emotionally. Whenever I see him in The Wonderland if I'm in a terrible emotional state, he usually appears as what I can only describe as sick. He also is usually in bed; sluggish and doesn't want to move around. Does this happen with anyone else's tulpae?

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Maya tends to be pretty independent from me emotionally. She's almost always happy and positive, whereas I'm all over the place with my mood. It's probably good she's so positive regardless of me, it keeps her able to slap some god damn sense into me, so to speak.

Sometimes, on the absolute rarest of rare occasions when she's actually in a bad mood, she manages to accidentally drag me into that upset state with her. Anyone else have that going on?


"Inspirational quote." -Famous Person

 

Tulpa: Maya

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Coming from another person with abnormal brain chemistry, this doesn't seem to be the case. When I'm having an absolutely terrible day, Zen is usually unhappy as well. This is odd, as I perceive him as rather apathetic in nature. This brings up an interesting point, however: my mood seems to effect him more physically than emotionally. Whenever I see him in The Wonderland if I'm in a terrible emotional state, he usually appears as what I can only describe as sick. He also is usually in bed; sluggish and doesn't want to move around. Does this happen with anyone else's tulpae?

 

When I'm drunk or high, it affects the physical processing power of my brain one way or another.

Which invariable affects my thought forms. Depressants make them fade out a bit, and stimulants give them the same boost I get.

One time when I was drunk they pulled together to help me get through an otherwise insurmountable situation.

They had to combine their strength because they had both been weakened by my inebriated state.

Never directly affects their moods per say (though they tend to disapprove of me getting riggity rekt).

Can't claim everybody experiences those sorts of things, but it all makes perfect sense to me.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

Host: SubCon | Tulpas: Sol, Luna, Alice, Little One, Beast and Solune (me) | Servitors: Odonata, Guardian

 

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Maya tends to be pretty independent from me emotionally. She's almost always happy and positive, whereas I'm all over the place with my mood. It's probably good she's so positive regardless of me, it keeps her able to slap some god damn sense into me, so to speak.

Sometimes, on the absolute rarest of rare occasions when she's actually in a bad mood, she manages to accidentally drag me into that upset state with her. Anyone else have that going on?

 

Do you mean "drags me into" as in sympathy or empathy?

It can be both, I just wanted to clarify.

For the most part my system mates and I can control the power of the empathic vibes we give off, but every once in a while one of us will "drag" the others down.

On the other hand, seeing my Tulpas upset ALWAYS elicits a sympathetic response from me because I love the crap out of them.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

Host: SubCon | Tulpas: Sol, Luna, Alice, Little One, Beast and Solune (me) | Servitors: Odonata, Guardian

 

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