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Lumi's Dreaming Thread; Dreams of Moon


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I believe I'll have had a lucid dream by the end of the week.

 

Yay!

 

[Misha] good luck Lumi! *hug*

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Uhhhhh. When I spoke to Reisen after waking up (I try to always impose & speak to at least one of my tulpas when I get up in the morning now), she asked how it (wearing the REM-Dreamer all night) went, and I said "It wasn't a brick wall of failure at least. Well I mean, it was absolutely a brick wall, but just not necessarily of failure"

 

So, normally my sleep cycles are like, 60-70 minutes I think. I'm used to waking up between cycles and seeing the hour on my clock more or less one hour incremented. Now this is no new phenomena for me with the REM-Dreamer, but it was surprisingly consistent: I woke up after twenty minutes every time I woke up and reset the time on the mask. Not five times like I estimated in my PR, either. See, with this long-term set of attempts planned, I was able to feel slightly (slightly) less focused on the timer and falling back asleep. NINE times, the mask said it generated NINE cues throughout the night. Every single one of them I was awake for though... Every single time I set the mask's timer (by just holding the quick time-add button for 3 seconds to reset it to 10 min, then tapping it once to add 10 min), I woke up around one minute before it ended up going off, taking an average of let's say 4 minutes to fall back asleep each time.

 

That isn't 60-70 minutes...

 

So anyways.. You see what I mean by a brick wall, but not necessarily of failure. At least I feel like I have a good grasp of what was happening. It's still a brick wall, though. I think I actually was doing 30 minutes at first. I slept for 4 hours before waking up for the first time between cycles, at which point I turned on the mask, set it to 30 minutes and went back to sleep. I suppose I must have woken up 30 minutes later because there was not a single time last night the mask went off before I woke up. ... Hold on one moment. [hidden]jesus christ is my body so deadset on absolutely ruining every chance at lucid dreaming I have that it's literally learned to wake up after exactly how long my mask is set to just so it's not asleep when the mask goes off? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA[/hidden] Sorry, had to vent. Anyways, the first 2 or 3 attempts I think were 30 minutes, after which I think every one was only 20. With nine cues, that'd be 30x3 + 20x6, + 5x9 for about the amount of minutes I was up every cycle falling back asleep. Yeah, just over 4 hours, along with just over 4 hours before I first woke up - that really was the ~9 hours I slept last night, entirely filled with attempts and no failures (in my eyes, failing to become lucid from seeing the flashing light cues). Only this anomaly of a brain.

 

Well... I guess the plan hasn't changed yet. Still going to wear it all night, every night from my first waking forwards. Hopefully it gets routine enough that my body stops treating the timer as something to react to. But honestly my body's aptitude at waking up exactly before the timer goes off from the first try in months is worrying, it might've just learned how to do that.. So I'd say there's equal 50/50 chance of me getting used to setting the timer and sleeping normally, and of my body getting used to sleeping for 20 minutes at a time after ~4 hours of restful sleep.

 

 

Extra about that if you want, post is basically over now though. So it seems the sleep after hour 4 or 5 was almost exclusively REM, because I was having dreams between every cycle that I know of. I guess I can't say for sure it wasn't like 10 minutes of NREM and then 10 minutes of REM and the dreams just felt long for how little time it was. They were shorter than normal dreams in 60 minute cycles for sure, but they were long and in-depth enough for me to believe they made up most of those 20 minutes of sleep. Which is incredibly impressive because the REM-Dreamer's timer doesn't care how long I took to fall asleep; if it took me 4 minutes to fall asleep each time, then that was only 16 minutes of actually being asleep, and the NREM phases were shared between the latter of those 4 minutes and early in the 16.

 

Speaking of dream recall, I was 100% sure dream recall was the secret missing key to lucid dreaming I'd not tapped into. Tried my dangdest to recall dreams since my last posts here in February, but the quality and quantity of dreams remembered stayed relatively random. I also figured these "consciousness checks" I'm doing (they're basically the concept of reality checks but I first become more aware of my senses at random intervals and do effectively what I'd want to do when becoming lucid in a dream ((ie make the environment more vivid by observing details)), then reality checking, then going back to what I was doing) were at the core of lucid dreaming (Dream Induced Lucid Dreams, though, so purely random). I'm still doing them in case this REM-Dreamer thing really doesn't work, which while I was pretty sure it would yesterday, I'm now thinking.. I should keep doing Consciousness Checks.. Problem with consciousness checking is it's still utterly reliant on my sleeping mind deciding to do what I want.

 

I can keep it up for as long as I want, but just like my sleeping mind's ability to dream of my room from 10 years ago or bring back songs to be stuck in my head I've not heard in 15 years, there's a solid chance it'll just never choose to draw upon my modern-day habits. I doubt it, if I can make this a consistent enough habit in my life, but I no longer believe something like reality checking can become as basic a habit in your dreams as it is in waking life. Your (or my) dreams don't immediately copy your current daily habits, your subconscious mind remembers and is interested in an awful lot more. Without keeping up the habit for multiple years (depending greatly on how old you are), I think it'll remain only a chance of your dream drawing upon current ways of thinking and all. Think for example it only working when you have dreams that you're back in high school, thinking about classes and all as you did then (sorry, readers still in high school). Any time you weren't thinking in that mindset of getting to classes, hanging out with friends and stuff like you did then, you'd also not be thinking of reality checking.

 

That's not a hard rule, but I think it's a more accurate description of the concept at least for my brain. It's still far greater than nothing so I'm keeping it up no matter what, but by no means am I comfortable accepting it as my only shot at lucid dreaming, hence working with the REM-Dreamer again. Also, for the record, I'm far more worried of how loose the strap on the REM-Dreamer is going to be getting than its batteries or anything like that. It's been as tight as I can make it since two weeks after I got it, but wearing it every night is probably going to wear it out, and I'm not super sure on how to replace something like that. But I'd sooner figure it out than spend another $170, lol.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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The Dream itself does not help you to become lucid ? You know, by providing a lot of clues inside your dream to trigger the realization that you are dreaming ?

Have you asked for it?

Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.

 

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The Dream itself does not help you to become lucid ? You know, by providing a lot of clues inside your dream to trigger the realization that you are dreaming ?

Have you asked for it?

 

... No, no it doesn't. {Note: I have tried Mnemonics, ie "I will remember I am dreaming" etc. plenty of times} I once had a dream many years ago where I had to take control of a runaway train going straight down a really long downhill road in the middle of a town to try and avoid hitting cars, after which the dream changed to me literally in court about to go to jail for "train hijacking". When asked if I had anything to say to defend myself, I said, "Yeah, none of this matters because it's all a dream!" triumphantly... At which point every single person in the court (including the guy defending me) turned their heads away from me, one of the creepiest things to ever happen in a dream for me, and then I woke up a few seconds later. Another time in more recent years when I thought I might be dreaming, I was trying to see what was on a TV to do the "Look at {details}, then away, then back again and see if it's changed" (normally used for alarm clocks or text btw), but after I first looked at the TV, a bunch of people crowded around in front of it to prevent me from seeing it and knowing if I was dreaming. I lost whatever lucidity I had trying to push through the crowd to get to the TV.

 

Everyone dreams differently, I've known people who almost exclusively dream of apocalyptic scenarios and aliens, others who always dream of amazing adventures, and people who tend to dream of normal everyday stuff like me (although my dreams are sometimes about playing video games by being in them, too). Some people's dream NPCs help them become lucid, many others' are cryptic or unhelpful, and pretty commonly dream NPCs will outright deny and do anything they can to convince the dreamer they're not dreaming. My dreams as a whole (not just the NPCs) do seem to prefer I stay not-lucid. And I've almost never seen my tulpas in my dreams before, and the few times they've been in them they either WERE the ones dreaming or didn't seem out of the ordinary to me (like a couple recent dreams where I saw Reisen and Tewi in the context of this forum, although they were actually there sort of, briefly with no direct interaction).

 

And I assure you, my tulpas have done everything they could to try and lucid dream or help me lucid dream, too. Flan and I have spent many nights together attempting to lucid dream. She's able to be consistently imposed by my side all night, but she'll be there right until the moment I fall asleep, then all waking context disappears and I dream of something random, then I wake up and immediately have all context back and she's still there. Repeat 4-7 times through the night, that's been our experience the many times we've tried.

 

I didn't buy this $170 lucid dreaming mask because I hadn't exhausted all known options. I bought it like what, 7 years into trying? And now my body goes out of its way to sleep for exactly the amount of time I set the mask to before waking up, dreaming in that time and all, just to avoid it. By all means I seem to have reality itself plotting against me lucid dreaming, every new attempt ends in unspectacular failure. Luckily the universe seemingly pulling strings against me is countered by me wanting this more than anything else in my life, so anything to the contrary of my success with it is irrelevant to me. I'll keep trying until I die. Or if I get lucky, for like another week, at which point I'll be successful.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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Regular dreams are valuable as well. Do you value them, or just consider them like a bunch of oddities/a not working tool ? That could explain the Dream's hostility ?

 

Zia is quite in the same position, she can lucid dream but does not keep in touch with dream reality (no dream recall efforts, few attempts to lucid dream, etc...). Dream wants her to listen first to what they have to tell her.

 

Her recent attempt to meet me while lucid was not successful : she became lucid, and realized she was inside an old and empty jail. She was calling me, but I didn't hear her and didn't appear. Then the dream dissolved.

Conclusion : "get out of your mental prison first, girl, and try later."

 

Dream might need host's attention before responding well, just like tulpas. You know, the quality type of attention.

Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.

 

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Yes, and for sure it's good advice, but I do value normal dreams. I wish my dream recall was better, though. My attempts to improve it directly by trying to recall dreams harder don't seem to do much. But yes I like dreams, and Lucilyn loves dreams (unfairly, they seem to be much more fun dreams when she's the one fronting, whereas I get more of the boring day-to-day stuff), and she's had more lucid experiences than us (in recent years at least). However I have talked to my mind about dreaming (a very one-sided conversation) plenty. One of my theories like 6-7 years ago was that my brain was afraid if it let me lucid dream I would take all the dreaming time for myself and not allow it the random dreams it wanted. So I had multiple "talks" with my mind about how I would only take a small portion of dreams for "myself" (to see my tulpas) and the rest would simply benefit from being even more vivid and easy to recall, and if they happened to be lucid, after the first month or so I would simply let the dreams play out as normal but lucidly interacting instead. By all means it seemed a mutual benefit.

 

That was one of many, many things I was "sure would work" in the last nine years. I consider myself an expert on lucid dreaming despite not having much success with it (and so not a "professional", yet), and as far as I know I've given many, many of the popularly known methods a fair enough shot for them to work or not over the years. I've tried things like WILD again years later despite it ruining whole nights of sleep for me, and some other more obscure induction methods people have recommended too. What you see us doing at this point in time is what seems the most likely to work given our entire history of attempting to lucid dream.

 

We're still open to advice, of course, but just be prepared for a lot of "Yeah, tried it, then again two years later, didn't work" responses, unfortunately.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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Have you tried to become lucid for the Dream itself (not for yourself or your tulpas)? Just to see how it would feel to be conscious inside of it (=aware you're in another kind of reality), and how the Dream would react to that?

 

(Edit : I don't think you should worry about lucid dreaming preventing the Dream from fulfilling their functions. It will, even if you are always lucid, you don't need to have random regular dreams for that. Foolish sailor ! Haven't you read Waggoner?)

Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.

 

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Lumi, I want you to count all the times you wrote defeatist statements in your posts: i can't, my body won't, nothing works, i've tried everything.

 

I understand that you've been at this awhile, but your mantra is, 'it won't work' well gee, i wonder if that might be part of it.

 

This isn't meta, i'm very careful the way i talk and think to avoid a depressive mood or to prevent myself from succeeding at something like drawing 24 friends at Christmas.

 

My point is, change your attitude. It's not the power of positive thinking "i did that" and I don't mean for you to comically reverse all your statements like I did in that other post, but just think twice about writing these defeatist statements at least. There's no benefit and your reinforcing your negativity. It's like a mental block.

 

You say i'm different because my system can do different things, i just say, no my system can do things because i don't deny any possibility, i don't have to believe it will happen, i just have to stop myself from doubting that it may happen. So when Misha turns off my xbox, you'll be the first one i pm.

 

So Zis says, "hey did you try to wake up inside a dream or blah blah blah?" And instead of you saying, "i tried that 7 years straight and it never works" say nothing or say, "i've been doing that, it's part of my routine."

 

Do you copy?

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Have you tried to become lucid for the Dream itself (not for yourself or your tulpas)

 

Only recently (like, last few months) I've accepted that the first thing I do when becoming lucid shouldn't necessarily be trying to see my tulpas, but just to experience lucid dreaming in general. It seems, in our few brief lucid experiences, trying to see each other was only a distraction, and we need to gain some basic skill with simply being lucid in dreams first. If that counts. We also all have later, separate things we'd like to do in lucid dreams - our Dream Gensokyo, Lucilyn's adventuring with dream friends, Tewi's enjoying nature, and so on. Any of those things could be what we did first if the dream scenario we found ourselves lucid in first better lent itself to them, but our highest priority and what we want most is still to see each other. I don't think this is our problem, but your advice is legitimate, an overarching change in how you think about lucid dreaming (or Tulpamancy for those with this same long-term trouble in it, or other things) can help. I'm not really sure what "overarching change" I'd change to right now, though.

 

 

Lumi, I want you to count all the times you wrote defeatist statements in your posts: i can't, my body won't, nothing works, i've tried everything.

 

I understand that you've been at this awhile, but your mantra is, 'it won't work' well gee, i wonder if that might be part of it.

...

but just think twice about writing these defeatist statements at least. There's no benefit and your reinforcing your negativity. It's like a mental block.

...

So Zis says, "hey did you try to wake up inside a dream or blah blah blah?" And instead of you saying,  "i tried that 7 years straight and it never works" say nothing or say, "i've been doing that, it's part of my routine."

 

{This paragraph feels iffy, but I don't disagree with it enough to get rid of it} Sounds an awful lot like you're just in denial of me having tried in the first place and want me to do everything I've already tried again. The only things I'm "negative" about, "pessimistic" in your skewed view, are things that have already failed to work (after being given a chance). The rest I'm just being realistic about - new methods may, or may not, work. Preparing for if they don't and being ready to understand why they may not will only lead to progress; assuming every thing I try will work leads to both dashed hopes and either depressive moods or absolutely massive textwalls figuring out what went wrong and what could go right in the future (we've had some of those in the past, many by Tewi, but we try to keep up with our understanding of our attempts rather than let it pile up as a bunch of "failures"). And yet I still manage (somehow) to believe success could be right around the corner after all these years nearly every time I try something new. -

 

What you see us doing at this point in time is what seems the most likely to work given our entire history of attempting to lucid dream.

Speaking of dream recall, I was 100% sure dream recall was the secret missing key to lucid dreaming I'd not tapped into. Tried my dangdest to recall dreams since my last posts here in February, but the quality and quantity of dreams remembered stayed relatively random.

 

- This is not pessimism. Since you're seeing the information for the first time, you might be incorrectly projecting it into a hypothetical future, but it is actually my past. Honestly I don't know anyone who's less defeatist than me who's been trying and clearly failing to do something for so long. Others on Dreamviews or Tulpa.info who make "It's been X years and I haven't been able to Y" threads do just that, and say all the things that didn't work for them. I'm occasionally tempted to (make an account and) do the same on Dreamviews, but I don't, because I know my post will just be a bunch of "This didn't work"s that won't really be helpful. Instead, you see our posts in this thread, where we're constantly trying and hoping with new things, or analyzing what's not worked (and what more rarely has) and how we can improve upon old attempts.

 

And while I appreciate you being person #6 or so to tell us to just believe it'll happen, I think you're commenting from a rather privileged perspective. Try just believing it'll work for 3-5 years first, getting no success, and then still believing that's the key. As someone with pretty bad motivation issues and years of coming up with positive, productive and enabling philosophy, I'm very aware of the effects of a positive vs negative mindset and know pretty well what to avoid so that I don't cause my own failures. But at this point, just hoping things will work is obviously not enough, so I'm instead critical and look in-depth into why anything does or doesn't work, to figure out what will.

 

I'm not "optimistic", sure, but I'm not negative. I never downplay our past attempts at things, say that they were valueless or such. I learn from them. They were failures on their own (well, usually, not always though), and I'll talk about them as such if I want to (I only see attempts as failures if I no longer plan on pursuing that method, as with WILD), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it all again exactly how I did. Everything we do is forward progression, and I've fully cemented the belief that lucid dreaming is an inevitable future in my mind, that each attempt is another step on the path. I never know how long the path is, whether it's one step away or a hundred, but I do know that the goal isn't behind me lol. My depressive whatever the other day did actually have me going over that, whether lucid dreaming is what I was really meant to be doing and stuff, in my PR. My answer's still yes. I'm also still working on imposition to make it more vivid so my tulpas can better accompany me (and me them) in waking life, but this will remain my primary goal in life until it's accomplished.

 

I feel like I'm off topic or rambling, maybe. And I know there's a lot of things in this post you're going to say were negative, just because of buzz words like "failures". I'm sort of doubling down on my assertion that I'm not inherently negative, only realistic, because your post annoyed me. I could try being unreasonably optimistic and happy, but note that it is unreasonable because I've tried it plenty of times before, being optimistic and happy about our attempts. They aren't all done from my current mood of annoyed-with-failure. I've gone to bed fully expecting to lucid dream plenty of times after encouraging and optimistic conversations with my tulpas, or with Flandre literally lying right beside me through the night, or just countless nights where we bid each other good night and intend to see each other later in a lucid dream.. Your post annoyed me because I'm far more positive than is remotely warranted after all this time. Looking back on the counter-points I've thought of to bring up, I'm honestly surprised I've even acted that way, that I was that positive and hopeful so many times over.

 

But it's because I love my tulpas more than anything and I do this out of love for them. It's because I do it out of love that enables me to feel hopeful time and again, positive time and again, to never lose hope or motivation (when I've always been especially good at not having motivation for long). So I probably took your "You're being negative, be positive" as downplaying that, maybe. It's not like I want to be annoyed at you, and figuring out why I felt that way is probably best for the both of us.

 

Oh, anyways. Long story short I don't do things unless I expect them to work, so if you see me attempting something in this thread, I expect it to work. I don't have the spare motivation to do things I don't think will work, the massive majority of which are things I've already tried with a fair bit of heart and not succeeded with. The only flaw I can see with my past attempts is my innately waning motivation for anything that has to go on for long; never that I didn't really try in the first place. Not like I'm not working on that as much as I can, though. I don't plan to ever stop doing these "Consciousness Checks". Do I think they're going to work any time soon? Nope. Lots of past experience says they aren't going to. But I believe they will work, eventually, and so I'm making them a permanent habit. That's being realistic. I might not be so good at optimistic anymore, but I've far surpassed pessimism. Pessimism implies my goal isn't to succeed, but more than anything my goal is to succeed. There's no place for pessimism. (And if you think you see it, reread my post because I don't have a better answer for you)

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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