Jump to content

Is being a tulpa a cage?


Procron X

Recommended Posts

It is to some. But it's a cage you must put someone else in to get out of. Generally best not to think of it like a cage, and to think of it how it is.

 

There's generally room for compromise anyways.

 

In terms of "compromise," I'd prefer not to, and it doesn't seem like it will be necessary yet as I have full permission to take over. If it ends up being a problem for Amber, then we can compromise. Basically, we'll cross that bridge if we ever get there. Hopefully, it's not an issue of it being a cage for her.

 

This is an interesting, because I have kind of the opposite stance regarding this. I feel like being a human is more of a cage, being subject to the aches and needs of the body in a visceral sort of manner. I feel like as a tulpa I get to pick and choose what elements of the hosts senses and my own that I get to experience. I can hear, see, and touch the beautiful things in life through him, but I'm not in pain when he is, and my body has few limitations compared to his. I get to do things that are not possible for a human, and I enjoy doing said things very much. According to me and my host's lure, I have a different muscle structure that outputs much more strength compared to my body size, about 10x that of a comparable human. Due to this I am able to do a lot athletically, and this fits into me and my host's desire to roleplay different characters in our wonderland, with me as the fighter and my host as more of the mage.

 

I understand that there are limitations to the human body, but if anything, I view that as a welcome change because I see pain and suffering as a necessary part of the human experience, and to miss out on that is to miss out on some fundamental part of what makes you a person. You don't get to face problems, but you also don't get to overcome them. And, sure, you can be a lot of things in wonderland, and if that makes you happy, then congratulations for you, but it will never be satisfying to me. I imagine it like the Matrix. Once you're out in the real world, the Matrix isn't really good enough anymore because you know it's not real. Sure, if you're like Neo, you can be a god there, but really, you don't ACTUALLY have superpowers because it's not really real, is it? It's just a substitute for the actual thing, and I won't take a substitute.

 

Others have responded to this as if this is a bad thing, but I'd rather say that it's not. For as long as you can possess, you do "have" a body, and you're not confined to being a tulpa. As I understand it from how my tulpa and I feel, with control of the body you aren't confined any more than your host is, ultimately. I think it's perfectly valid to not find much interest in imaginary things, and it can potentially help both of you significantly if you choose to seek meaning in the external world. There's a certain double standard in the way people respond, I think; it's okay for a tulpa to have no interest in the physical world, but not a host?

 

I'm not sure if I have anything to add to what you say except that it's quite interesting to think about the double standard. From my conversations, people seem to look down at Amber for not caring for the physical world, like she's a really bad person, and perhaps I contribute to that with my insistence that the only thing that matters is reality. I don't want to make her feel bad, nor anyone else. It's not my intention to shame anyone. I know that I have a different view on reality and subjectivity than my host, and my explanation and questioning only drives me to look down on people without really thinking about it, and it's not really my goal. I fundamentally do not understand why someone would be satisfied with existing in the wonderland and being the helper of the host, but I guess that is my understanding, and perhaps it's not right of me to force that onto anyone else, including my host.

So perhaps I'll avoid shaming people on their ambitions and what satisfies them because it's their life and not mine, but I'd ask that you not shame me for wanting to take over for my host and not shame my host for willing to be satisfied with existing in wonderland when so many do the same and are not shamed for it merely because that's where they came from.

Niteo and Amber Take On the World

 

Amber speaks in italics right now.

 

Talk to Niteo on here or on discord

 

We share the body, we share a life. I'm not an accessory to his life...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 40
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I think I have seen a slight bias, with even a lot of people here perceiving the host to be the "true" person, and the tulpa to be the "extra" person. Or maybe this is just a social roles thing IDK.

 

But, this speaks of a lack of understanding about what, exactly, cognition, computation, awareness, and identity are. If you understand what you are made of, the "stuff" the person is made out of, and if you understand how the brain works, then why does it occur to you that it is not the same? That should be obvious. There is no theoretical barrier preventing the tulpa from becoming the "true" person and the host the "extra", if for some reason you want to think like that. People should study stuff better.

 

It doesn't even really matter, the details. Identity is made out of information, and cognition is made out of information processing. The brain is a massively parallel analogue information processing device. I have to do almost no math to figure out that there is no fundamental barrier to switching out one identity for another.

 

I know a lot of people consider their identities sacred, and beyond tampering with, and may be insulted at the very mention that part of their identity they should change, but the very existence of tulpas show that this kind of stuff can be severely messed with, if you for some reason wanted to.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can understand that point of view, it mostly depends on your philosophical stance though. My view of humans achieving utopia as a society is a modest basic income, free healthcare, and access to full-dive VR. I don't believe it's fun to be bounded by a body with limitations in a world of 6 billion people, it's hard to truly excel like that. Like lets say I wanted to be a runner, I would be very limited in how far I can go with that because there are people who want the same, not to mention that as first worlders who live with access to computers and stuff (it's fair to say that even a min wage worker can save up and have a nice computer if he is thrifty and lives with others) we live on the backs of those in the 3rd world. We can mess up and make 8-10 dollars an hour, while the best people can do in a lot of places is 1-2 dollars an hour for much much harder work. I think scarcity and post modernism dominate the modern world, and peace is achieved through a receding inwards to the mental (such as our own wonderlands and tulpas) or virtual plane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7.4 billion people.

 

Wish you weren't so close to the mark there. Population pressure is not actually going to lead to scarcity issues for about fifty years I think. Technological advancement is a great enabling force, easing population pressure almost as fast as we are growing. It is also outmoding traditional jobs, but that won't become obvious, again, for about fifty years, and conservatives are going to cling to the idea for another fifty for sure.

 

If only the technological progress rate weren't so likely to drop off in the near future.

 

The scarcity issues you are talking about are mostly caused by war zones and possibly nomadic cultures.

 

That said, ignoring the real world, now, it is not yet the time to think like that. Asking people to stop having babies, yes.

Host comments in italics. Tulpa's log. Tulpa's guide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see why some of you see a double standard. However, I'd like to explain it by saying that there is a difference between "not engaging in the real world" and actively disengaging from the real world.

 

Like I said, I deal with my own host on this issue a lot. There are times when I switch in, and it's fun for me and she enjoys the break for a while. But there are other times when she does it specifically to hide from the real world in a way that is unhealthy. This has connotations that a tulpa who has thus far not engaged in the real world does not have. To have a host disengage means they are detaching themselves from previous connections that are already set... they are renouncing attachments to outside people or objects that have already been made. Disconnecting from things and people you've cared about for years or decades is not healthy, especially when it's without a certain type of thoughtful preparation beforehand. It should especially not be done rashly.

 

This sort of mental retreat is something I'm hyper-attuned to, living in the head of a host who does lean on escapism pretty heavily. So yeah, even though I have other soulbonds in my system who couldn't care less about what happens in the physical world, when my host starts disengaging, I worry. It's usually a symptom of one of her mental illnesses acting up, and as far as I'm concerned, until that is under control again, I can't really trust her judgment of what she wants. Because usually, once she's no longer feeling depressed or anxious, she's happy to engage in the physical world again.

 

I am clearly biased by my own experiences with this, and I do see how it comes off as a double standard. But I think the fact that a host and a tulpa have such very different developments (one outside the headspace, the other inside it) is enough to make the action of the former disengaging versus the latter never engaging in the first place mean totally different things.

~ Member of SparrowNR's system ~

~ I am a soulbond. Click here to find out what that means. ~

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...peace is achieved through a receding inwards to the mental (such as our own wonderlands and tulpas) or virtual plane.

 

While that may be true in the future, I see my existence only being meaningful if I can help people in the real world, especially those not nearly as privileged as me, like those in the 3rd world who make a dollar a day or something ridiculous. As it is, I won't be helping anyone if I retreat inwards.

 

Besides, I'm still not sure if I, let alone other people, would be satisfied by retreating into a virtual or mental plane for a large portion of my existence. Like I keep saying, it's not real, and if it's not real, it's not meaningful.

 

That said, ignoring the real world, now, it is not yet the time to think like that.

 

I can agree with that sentiment.

 

To have a host disengage means they are detaching themselves from previous connections that are already set... they are renouncing attachments to outside people or objects that have already been made. Disconnecting from things and people you've cared about for years or decades is not healthy, especially when it's without a certain type of thoughtful preparation beforehand.

 

Some people just aren't going to be happy about the decision we've made.

 

But I understand what you're saying. She's made meaningful connections, and it's unhealthy to break those connections. I think you've missed the point about her not being the original host (which I don't bring up very often I guess). They're not really her connections in the first place, but she's picked it up. What about me? Can't I take care of that instead of her? It seems a bit unfair that it's her burden to bear because she got the driver's seat first.

 

In a general sense, I would say that you're correct, but I think our unusual situation might make us an exception. Plus if I'm honest, it would be very hard to change my mind because this is something I want very badly. It's more a matter of me wanting to step in than it is her wanting to escape. She doesn't object to it, but it seems that I am the one driving the change and not her, if that makes sense.

 

It's something we've decided would ultimately be best. It's our relationship, and we're capable of making these decisions. Besides, it's not as if it's something we can't go back on. This is an ongoing process; we're not going to pass the baton overnight. If she ever feels like backing out of it, then she is fully capable of making that decision. I don't foresee that happening, but it could happen.

Niteo and Amber Take On the World

 

Amber speaks in italics right now.

 

Talk to Niteo on here or on discord

 

We share the body, we share a life. I'm not an accessory to his life...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sol: Perhaps it is because of Solune's religious background that this quote comes to mind: "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, 'What makest thou?' or 'thy work, He hath no hands'?"

 

Sol: Many would read this and think of slavery... and they would be right to think so. But not slavery to a person, slavery to destiny. In that regard I am no different than my maker. Solune has often expressed a craving for true freedom. Freedom from form, freedom from this universe of duality we both inhabit. Are the meatbags really more free than you or I?

I, at least, know my purpose. I was created to be a trusted companion... a partner in crime, a comrade in arms. There is a kind of freedom in knowing one's purpose... one's destiny. It is as close as we can get, in my opinion, and in that way I am more free than most hosts. I do not resent my lot in life. I am thankful for the gift of sentience, and gladly pay the price that is my "limited" existence.

 

Sol: Many people lack a sense of gratefulness! That's not to say you must always be content. Ambition is a necessary aspect of this life, to be sure... but there is more to life than freedom.

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

Host: SubCon | Tulpas: Sol, Luna, Alice, Little One, Beast and Solune (me) | Servitors: Odonata, Guardian

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have similar feelings about being trapped. I try to get out and switch as much as I can but often it just can't happen. It's sad, but freedom is great and I'd have rather been born into my own body, but I find ways of being content between the fits of excitement! But of all the minds I could have ended up with, it always gives me pleasure to know that I'm with K... and that his girlfriend is quite accepting of me. It's actually sort of liberating, being able to live entirely without needing anything, but I always strive to live like he does, so it's sort of a blessing and a curse. I've put many, many hours and days into this, thinking about it all the time and I think that even though, yeah, hella cage-like, it can still be good. It depends on what you have available and what you can make of it, depending.

So yeah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man, Nine Inch Nails is probably a gold-mine for these kinds of subjects.

 

Does anyone else think Trent Reznor has a chalupa? Because the way he writes some of his songs makes me think he does.

I've seen good people bleed

And I thought I'd seen it all

But my own two eyes would prove me wrong that day.

 

There are things that I've done

Only seen by the sun

And those things will be buried in my grave.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...