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[split] Consciousness, et cetera.


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Oh goodie, look what you've done, Fede. xD

 

The whole conscious/subconscious is a typical black and white fallacy, you can't divide the whole brain clearly, and only because it is subconscious does not mean it is anything bad, false, or can't have anything to do with the consciousness.

 

I do not attempt to comment on the morality of anything. Also no complex system can be divided clearly, hence it being am model. I am just stating that within the psychological model that Freud put forth, tulpa would be an unconcious process.

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Ya know, Freud's model sort of falls apart when you consider cases of no consciousness/multiple consciousness within the same mind. Tulpae are conscious of themselves, right? Does that make them an unconscious conscious process?

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Ya know, Freud's model sort of falls apart when you consider cases of no consciousness/multiple consciousness within the same mind. Tulpae are conscious of themselves, right? Does that make them an unconscious conscious process?

 

Well, considering no conciousness would be weird, I will consider only the idea of multiple conciousness. First, Freud did not ever mention anything for beyond one mind or one 'component' within a mind. Second, I believe one can sidestep that if one remove the concept of 'ownership' of a mind and instead considers oneself (as a personality and though) a product of a mind, and the tulpa as another (how? Emergent properties).

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Well, considering no conciousness would be weird, I will consider only the idea of multiple conciousness. First, Freud did not ever mention anything for beyond one mind or one 'component' within a mind. Second, I believe one can sidestep that if one remove the concept of 'ownership' of a mind and instead considers oneself (as a personality and though) a product of a mind, and the tulpa as another (how? Emergent properties).

Agree with you here...that's exactly how I believe it works, and why I think Freud was shortsighted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm taking this to mean that you agree that both tulpae and ourselves are roughly equivalent -- self-aware, roots in the unconscious etc...

 

if so, answer this:

 

But...if you agree with Fede and believe that tulpae are subconsciously controlled, does that mean we are as well? The reason I ask is because you seem to have pushed some buttons and implied (if accidently) that tulpae are not truly self-aware, but puppets made to act it.

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Agree with you here...that's exactly how I believe it works, and why I think Freud was shortsighted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm taking this to mean that you agree that both tulpae and ourselves are roughly equivalent -- self-aware, roots in the unconscious etc...

 

if so, answer this:

 

But...if you agree with Fede and believe that tulpae are subconsciously controlled, does that mean we are as well? The reason I ask is because you seem to have pushed some buttons and implied (if accidently) that tulpae are not truly self-aware, but puppets made to act it.

 

I would more say that the Unconcious has its own processes and action it commits, and that it has the same affect on all Conciousness, that is one of feelings and instincts (and other vague effects).

 

Also, as to separate, please note that I mean that the Concious does not play a part in it, though it may affect it. Also, I do not know if the Concious can perceive or control (even at a vary basic level of stop and start) all Unconcious activity.

 

Furthermore, the fact that tulpae share human traits and characteristics in terms of mental capacity has never been a point of argument for me. Even in the crudest sense where tulpae are mere hallucinations I always maintained that since people project and Unconciously manage them (a one mind model), the fact that they project and that the human host carried out the activities it endows them with all of the human minds capacities and characteristics (through projection).

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I would more say that the Unconcious has its own processes and action it commits, and that it has the same affect on all Conciousness, that is one of feelings and instincts (and other vague effects).

Possibly, yeah. I think the mechanism for sending emotions actually works this way; they just get shared. It's possible that emotions get segregated as time goes on; Chupi mentioned that he has to 'dissolve the boundaries of his mind' or something to get emotions to get through. Who knows. Needs moar info.

 

Also, as to separate, please note that I mean that the Concious does not play a part in it, though it may affect it. Also, I do not know if the Concious can perceive or control (even at a vary basic level of stop and start) all Unconcious activity.

 

Furthermore, the fact that tulpae share human traits and characteristics in terms of mental capacity has never been a point of argument for me. Even in the crudest sense where tulpae are mere hallucinations I always maintained that since people project and Unconciously manage them (a one mind model), the fact that they project and that the human host carried out the activities it endows them with all of the human minds capacities and characteristics (through projection).

 

Having trouble deciphering this. As far as I can tell, you believe it's an exercise in (unconscious) self-deception, and that tulpae aren't truly alive, only that they appear to be? Keep in mind, agreeing with Fede makes you a bad person.

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Possibly, yeah. I think the mechanism for sending emotions actually works this way; they just get shared. It's possible that emotions get segregated as time goes on; Chupi mentioned that he has to 'dissolve the boundaries of his mind' or something to get emotions to get through. Who knows. Needs moar info.

 

 

Having trouble deciphering this. As far as I can tell, you believe it's an exercise in (unconscious) self-deception, and that tulpae aren't truly alive, only that they appear to be? Keep in mind, agreeing with Fede makes you a bad person.

 

 

All I was saying is that if one was even to posit that tulpae are merely hallucinations and the sentience is simulated by the host, they would still be human in terms of mental capacity. Also, I agree with Fede on parroting not being bad. Come at me.

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Oh no, I wouldn't know about the parroting thing. Whether or not it's effective, though, is up for debate, and no amount of blah blah narrow-minded blah blah superiority complex is going to convince me otherwise. Read Fig's progress log for anecdotes. But that's not the point.

 

You didn't answer my question. You pushed some buttons earlier by agreeing with Fede and saying tulpae were "subconsciously controlled" -- not truly self-aware, simulated sentience. I asked you if you believe that. You asserted so earlier, but now you're hiding behind the mysterious 'one'

if one was even to posit that tulpae are merely hallucinations and the sentience is simulated by the host
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Oh no, I wouldn't know about the parroting thing. Whether or not it's effective, though, is up for debate, and no amount of blah blah narrow-minded blah blah superiority complex is going to convince me otherwise. Read Fig's progress log for anecdotes. But that's not the point.

 

You didn't answer my question. You pushed some buttons earlier by agreeing with Fede and saying tulpae were "subconsciously controlled" -- not truly self-aware, simulated sentience. I asked you if you believe that. You asserted so earlier, but now you're hiding behind the mysterious 'one'

 

 

Yes, I believe tulpa can be controlled.

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