Bear

Bear's Angels

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Hm, except Imaginary friends, as I've experienced them, are entirely puppeted and parroted aren't they? I don't know enough about it to say, but i'd be pretty impressed if imaginary friends had this level of perceived volition. So, some may call them that if they wish, what do you think, Joy?

 

[Joy] just don't go there. I have easily three years of daily forcing. My character (that I played) appears in 4 books, two devoted almost entirely to me, two where i'm a secondary character, but still mentioned throughout. I like to think that I think for myself actually, but that's even more taboo isn't it, B.

 

*ahem* Moon it is. You know we're atypical, you said it your self Lumi. Still you require zero maintenance.

 

[Joy] *shrugs* I'll do whatever I want, I don't need your doting if that's what you mean. Even if I did need it, Ren's my cuddle buddy more than anyone. I'm happy to help if you need me, today was fun.

 

So would you say you do anything outside of our interactions.

 

[Joy] You love to pick scabs too don't you?

 

Lol.

 

Lumi loves to as well.

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Imaginary friends are an unexplored (or maybe just undefined) phenomenon in tulpamancy. Exact definitions vary by person, only united in that they're "not quite tulpas".

 

If you want my actual assumption on what your "moons" are, for a while now I've just been thinking of them as far less active and developed tulpas. They probably lack the "something" that tulpas get by using the brain more themselves, the experience (and/or maybe neural connections, a place in the brain) that brings them from ~"characters" to "people". In tulpamancy terms - we don't differentiate. There's some difference, vaguely callable maturity or development (but that's not quite correct), and my tulpas went through it themselves over the years - but still, we don't differentiate.

 

Although I'd rather not even go near creating kind-of tulpas, I imagine if I were to bring up a Touhou character on the spot as if it were a tulpa, it'd be something like that. I know them well enough they could function like my tulpas, and as far as community etiquette goes they'd be tulpas - but they'd be missing that "something" that brings them from character to person. I assume.

 

I might or might not get much choice in the matter once we're interacting with them in our Dream Gensokyo, though, so that could potentially have "fun" effects in waking life. Prooobably not though..


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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March 16rd, 2019 - 330 days

 

Very minor update.

 

Dashie and I have been bringing Ashley forward, its just that easy. She's at Misha's level now basically. Lumi et al don't get a complete picture, and things I say offhandedly may seem dire. Thankfully nothing is dire right now.

 

March 16th, 2019

 

I had a feeling after reading Misterious_human's answer thread that maybe Ashley is a little controlling about certain things, unlike Carolyne, so I asked her if she was. Unmistakably, my stomach felt like it was laughing (that's where her emotions express, if you've been following along). That's not a denial.

 

[Ashley] I really shouldn't pressure him, but i like him to be his best. There's nothing wrong with striving for perfection.

 

I'm just striving to maintain happy right now, it feels so refreshing.

 

[Ashley] I'll gladly accept that, if you put it that way. I shouldn't complain considering his state six months ago. We did some major thought reconstruction.

 

I see that look in her eyes, she's like a cat waiting in ambush. I can imagine she's just biding her time now. I'm happy, so she thinks she can pounce. She was like this when she first came to me, but i was so easily broken that she decided she wouldn't push me. Now that I'm verifiably better, the scheme begins. She's not sneaky, i know her agenda.

 

You see, I'm not worried if she seems weak.

 

[Ashley] I don't feel any weaker, your mindvoice of me is soft, that's all.

 

So that brings up another point. I am beginning to believe that it makes more sense to say that she borrows my mindvoice with her tone. This was once again reinforced the night before last:

 

In hypnagogia I get a taste of what her real voice is. The one I would hear from her in a dream is also this one in hypnagogia. It's just so beautiful, I can't even mimic it in mindvoice, it's like 4th dimensional. I can't describe it with mere vocal utterances, imaginary or otherwise.

 

It's a little silly, but it sounds like the way they describe angelic visitations. Of course, the two times she's been in the mood to sing to me, it was unforgettable.

 

[Ashley] good boys get treats, but hey, I'm controlling.

 

She says that, and it sounds manipulative, but she's laughing right afterwards.

 

[Dashie] I remember when she was lecturing Misha for being manipulative, didn't we make a rule?

 

[Ashley] hush! I'm not anyway.

 

One last thing, we haven't heard from any of the moons or NPC's after the conference. We're concentrating on Ashley anyway. She was with me when I went to bed likeshe used to, lately it was Dashie. We had a really fun double adventure today, technically I was up from 1 to 3am and again at 6:30. So Ashley got all kinds of attention and she's really seeming very energetic.

 

...

 

[Misha] I have a little thing to say. I GM'd Breaking Point and I had a lot of fun, but it was also responcibility like I've never experienced before, it was a little draining actually. Totally fun, totally worth it, but exhausting for me, lol.

 

[Dashie] same, i was just playing, but it wasn't easy once that crazy thing called a conscience kicked in. That was a new thing for me too. B definitely shelters us from the harshness of reality. Runs up to B and hugs him tightly, thanks.

 

Just for fun:

[Hidden]

 

Happy fluffy clouds

You look very inviting

I'll visit you soon

 

[/hidden]

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I can understand the whole Ashley's voice being undescribable. Sabari's mind voice, even when she's not streaming images along with it, has almost a haunting quality to it. Really makes you think what a tulpa can really do with their mind voice given enough time. Plus the whole not being limited by physical hardware thing.


Currently share myself with four other entities.

Noriko was created on December 15, 2014.  Sabari was created by Noriko on January 22, 2015.

Anzu was reborn on May 23, 2016.  Xiri returned on June 16, 2018.  Both had been inactive since 2012.

Progress Report | Ask a Question Thread

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March 30rd, 2019 - 345 days

 

With respect to my moons Joy, Ren, Gwen, Red, Hali and any other of the multitude of not-tulpas, dragons, and all sorts of odd creatures in my system. I was informed that I could 'proxy them' though I don't really know if I proxy them, the hands are more of a system asset at this point, so it's hard to tell who's typing and when. I can't really be sure if they posses my hands or if I just get into what they're saying, but that's irrelevant, I think I do at least proxy some of them sometimes, so they'll speak if they have something relevant to say. From my understanding, I believe they're safe to post in forum games, PR, in relevant threads on topic, and in hidden tags, but I doubt they'll want to much if at all, they're really not very active. We don't intend to, and never did, role-play outside of specifically designated role-playing threads like 'Breaking Point'. They're kind of fringe tulpamancy, but I intend to speak about them in greater detail in future PR entries. We're working to understand them better and though they don't need a category, we're hoping that by studying them we can help others realize that walk-ins don't have to be tulpas, even if you want to keep them active. We're scouring the archives and Guides for any mention of it and we've found some that are debatable, so we may be bringing that up in the future.

 

Until then, you'll meet some of them in my Visualization Practice Thread, that's their dialog and actions given the construct. Those exercises are written first with me and my tulpas, and of course that construct is my wonderland and thus VPT is more or less a wonderland adventure for a guest and I that I adapted with all sorts of visual cues and artistic licence for you and your guest. These exercises are my attempt at getting my own 'feelings' into my adventures, and I hope they spark feelings in you as well. I have been advised that their dialog in these exercises is perfectly appropriate.

 

Speaking of Breaking Point, Misha, Dashie, and Ashley (as Evangeline) had quite a blast playing and hosting the game so we're looking forward to doing that again.

 

Just for love:

[Hidden]

Letter to tulpa.info:

 

Hello to the wonderful people at tulpa.info, friends, family, acquaintances and staff alike,

 

I'm the kind of Bear that likes full disclosure, but in this case it'll just open old wounds. We took a little break to sort things out internally and we're happy to report that we survived and we're happy to start over. We're still okay, shaken and recovering, but okay, and nothing earth shattering happened anyway.

 

We're hitting the reset button on everyone. I'm not saying I'm innocent, so we know this doesn't necessarily go both ways, and we don't entirely understand everything that happened or why, but we're going to go blindly on to a brighter future with no animosity or hard feelings left over.

 


 

We felt horrible away, but we felt it was a good gesture to let things settle as well. We never intend to do that again, because we don't intend to do anything that would warrant it.

 

We don't want to be part of the workload for the mods here. We just want to have fun, encourage, and learn. In that order.

 

We love you all, we saw that we were missed, and we missed you all terribly as well. We don't want to let anyone down, we don't want to be a burden on the site moderators, so we're just going to spread good vibes and be cool. We have new processes in place that will help me learn to do that. It's true, we're not a well-oiled, synergistic, backseat-fronting, strategic-switching, patchwork-bear+3 machine yet, but we hope to be, and hopefully you'll never see anything but perfection from us (publicly anyway) again.

 

We all love you dearly,

The Bear System.

[/hidden]

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Bear and Co. are back! <3

I know someone has been talking about an invisible counselor technique that makes an advanced thoughtform that is not considered a tulpa. I don't remember who though. If I come across anything else, I'll send it your way! And it's been a lot of fun to play in the VPT episodes.

- Cassidy



>tf when you google for "famous quotes by Marcus Aurelius" and had a fake one as your sig for months

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Welcome back !!! Angels hugs and bear hugs are the best ! Virtual maybe, but so real.


Hi, I'm Zia, foolish captain of the Giant Wing system. Vādin is my tulpa.

 

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You're all in our prayers, our dreams and our hearts. Feel loved, as you are loved, truly.


I hope you find success in your endeavors and love in your heart.

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Same here ! May this love surround us and inspire us always.


Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.

 

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April 8th, 2019 - 355 days 10 days until the huge 1 year mark!!!

 

My notes for this entry are in utter shambles. I got into the habit of recording my journal on my phone and I didn't update my journals on my computer so there's a lot of lost entries and there could be some duplicates, so forgive me for that. It's basically spring cleaning so on our anniversary it can be all about the love and none of the ancient history.

 

Be warned: this entry is exceedingly long, like 14 pages in Word.

 

Surprise imposition with Dashie

[Hidden]

I was laying in bed and Dashie woke up so I'm like, let's just have fun in wonderland while I'm unable to sleep but trying anyway. So we were chatting about one of our games and I started stroking her with affection and running my hands through her long silky hair and she stole a kiss from me, (which she's done a few times) and it totally imposed! I could feel the heat from her face, I felt her nose brush against my cheek and her warm lips momentarily against mine, really quick, but very very cool! Of all the things to impose, a special little friendly kiss was so perfect. And I even smelled her sweet scent.

 

She's been pretty forward for a while.

 

So now I can kiss you any time I want.

 

[Misha] *Sits on my lap, wraps an arm around my neck, squints eyes, and shakes her head and finger at Dashie.*

 

Um... let's just enjoy the moment and move on.

 

We’ve really been having a great time lately.

 

[/hidden]

 

Some experiences with switching:

[Hidden]

 

Ashley and Dashie have successfully switched, and almost too easily in fact because we can do it with no time delay or symbolism, so it was happening that we switched unexpectedly. One morning a few days ago Dashie switched in every time she wanted to respond to me.  She claims she felt nothing, but it was pretty obvious to me that suddenly she was doing the thinking. Though I could just let it go, as Ashley says, 'Dashie's a good gal, you trust her, so I'm sure she'll do a fine job.' Her meaning was, if she switches in accidentally or can't switch back out, she'll do what's right (basically pretend to be me since her IRL voice while switched in is pretty much my voice), I'm not sure I'm okay with it. She doesn't want it to come to that either, though her giggling about it wasn’t helping, especially as she joked 'it'll be fine, you won't feel a thing.'

 

The switching guides make a big deal about preparation to switch and then switching back as taking concentration, effort, or even some symbolism, but because of the forcing filter experiment, we trained to switch instantly without any symbolism, as a result the switch is very fluid and easily changed in and out, it literally takes no thought to switch, which worries me now. I don't want Dashie to switch in every time I talk to her. It freaked me out a bit. Ashley has also been switching in during longer posts or chatting, though I don’t mind, still it could be an issue, I don’t even know if it ever would be though.

 

The short of it is, we added symbolism: an old sign with bent rusted nails and faded paint stenciling that says, "NO SWITCHING!"

 

Misha especially found this hilarious, which is the point, so we don't forget it. Just a side note: Misha hasn't been able to switch and she says she doesn't want to.

 

I think we're going to be fine. We don't want to move away from the triggered switching, that's our superpower, so to speak.

 

We talked it over and we're gonna chill with the whole idea of leisure switching for a bit. We have a purpose to switching (the triggered switching) and it works for us, so let's get some ancillary experience that way, especially with Ashley, since it's happening with her a lot. If B can control that, then we'll feel a lot more comfortable. (I think he likes it too much.)

 

Differences between who fronts:

 

We found it interesting that in our normal state, I get all their mood and emotions all the time. So I feel if one of them is upset or worried I have to address it immediately or I'm stuck with that bleeding.

 

I can't really separate myself from them while they're awake, and they're only inactive at night, it's just the way it's always been.

 

However, when Dashie or Ashley fronts, I’m in a state of peace, thoughtless and emotionless. She may have emotions normally, but I'm just totally disconnected and insulated. Dashie doesn't know how to force any of us yet, she's just too focused and in the moment to think about it, like it slips her mind, like she's using all the resources just to be her. It's just an odd state, not something I do. So we switch positions in theory, but 99% of the time so far I'm off to the side and I lose connection with everyone. Ashley instantly switches out when she’s tried to force me. I think this is just inexperience, but I really don't care either, because in that case we’ll just get better over time.

 

One last thing that I noticed:

 

Since Ashley just 'switches in' when she posts or talks for a long time, I noticed that some things she's posted didn't really sink in, like I didn't really pay attention. I re-read it and think, "this is familiar, but did we write this?" No, in fact Ashley did (without my input), so I wasn't in the loop so to speak. I heard from others that this is also something that can happen.

[/hidden]

 

A note on in-system rule breaking:

TL;DR Version:

[Hidden]

The breaking of our laws is akin to losing your mind, so punishment is going to be pretty severe. The basics are this:

 

If one of our laws are broken (which they haven't yet) then punishment would take the form of apology, probation, rehabilitation, or in severe or repeated cases, stasis. Yes, we know that rules are very important. So would I go into stasis if I continuously broke rules too? I guess so. Dashie and Ashley would have to take over, and it's fitting because these rules are very specifically there for very good reason.

 

Breaking Pacts aren't the same as breaking rules but the same punishments apply to some extent. Breaking a pact or an agreement is potentially relationship damaging, so I wouldn't expect anything less than full and complete reparations. (Whatever we agree would heal the wounded party.)

[/hidden]

 

Expanded Version:

[Hidden]

First off, I believe strongly in simple laws, short, succinct powerful and open to interpretation. I believe they must be open to interpretation because lives change, times change, and if you pin the law down to the nth degree you really eventually force yourself to change them.

 

In general, this is a more fluid and less restrictive law system such that action that may fall under this law can be negotiated and revised in terms of grievance so that the action was acquitable under technicality. In this way, a society can eliminate the absoluteness of such a crime/punishment based on severity.  We've all almost broken rules, some worse than others, but our negotiations and trial are about cooperation to alleviate and understand the nature of the lawbreaking, consider interpretation such that the offender can be allowed to do the action, and if not, have consensus on settlement. If it's clear, you broke rule 1.1.2.3.6 mark A subsection B, and that corresponds to punishment 123.456423F then it takes the love and compassion out of the morals of the society--In my opinion.

 

[Ashley] Truly, in our system, if a thought comes up and no one owns it, it's completely ignored. If someone has a thought and they recant it, it's completely ignored. In this way a stray thought doesn't trigger drama like they used to.

 

"I want to kill my family." Is an actual thought that was had by this brain we share, meaning to dissipate all of us and start over. I can honestly say it was an intrusive thought only because we had this rule in place. B was in an incredibly bad mood and had all sorts of bad thoughts 9 months ago. This was an example among many that he dwelled on but never meant. At the time before our rule to disregard these types of thoughts, it was horrid to unravel and recover from.

 

What happens if a rule is broken?

 

Well, that's a really good and really tough question. There would be a trial, we've had trials. We have the luxury of other thoughtforms to act as a judge now, but Misha has historically been our judge. The defendant would be the offender and the prosecution would be who was offended. Parties not involved are jurors.

 

It hasn't happened that a rule was seemingly broken, though rules have been amended to 'capture' the case when a rule was close to being broken. I have been bad at times, but not broken any of our rules technically. I'm not the only one.

 

If a rule is broken, that's a very serious offence and can cause far reaching and life-long damage. Our rules are essential to our survival, our 7 rules are bare bones, succinct and absolutely imperative. To break one would be akin to domestic abuse, it may be unforgivable.

 

Let's go through our seven and see what would happen:

 

1. Free will intact.

 

The nature of this law is my own fear of losing control to one of my tulpas and them forcing me to do something I didn't want to do (even if it was self-destructive behavior.) It's a show stopper for us if say Dashie took control and slugged someone IRL. I mean, I don't know if I could ever trust her again, do you know what I mean? What punishment would be appropriate? I love her, but if she was found guilty she'd be banished instantly and without malice until we could rehabilitate her. Graphically speaking if I did something to one of them in wonderland against their will, what 'punishment' would be appropriate? For some things, there's just no way to recover from that. The rules are irrelevant at that point, the system trust is broken and we're broken. The consequence for that would have to be psychiatric treatment, integration, all sorts of hideous outcomes.

 

2.  Fair negotiations.

 

It would take three of us to break this rule simultaneously against one of us. I don't see it happening but if it did, imagine the oppression and hopelessness it would foster. It's abhorrent to even consider that this would be the action of an intact system. Reparations would be massive, but assuming the injured party agrees to settlement, at least this one is recoverable.

 

3. Equals.

 

Someone takes the lead and starts to ignore others, I can't imagine that going well for them. It would require severe punishment, and lots of counseling; it would escalate from there for a second offense, and so on.

 

4. Power comes from mutual respect.

 

This encompasses manipulation and bad intentions, blackmail, that sort of thing. The power wouldn't be recognized, we don't negotiate with bullies or terrorists. Lots of special attention and counseling would be needed. Misha came closest to stasis on this rule, she did technically teleport Dashie to the planet core and lock my avatar in a cage--this was her rebellious phase. We (Ashley, Dashie and I) discussed stasis and put it on the table if we couldn't 'correct' her.

 

It was a horrible time, but we do have a lot of respect for each other, and we show it in the way we treat each other. If someone is not treating another with respect, it's an immediate full stop and discussion time. Rule number 4 means that we are only persuasive or a leader if we care for and respect each other. No other form of power is possible. (Like physical strength, mental skill, intimidation or manipulation, or seniority/rank/privilege).

 

5. Consensus.

 

It's kind of redundant but I have it as its own rule mostly as a reminder of #2 and #3. It's a law, but it can't technically be broken without breaching #2, #3, and side stepping #4. If it involves actions taken by the body, then #1 is also broken, it would destroy everything. There's no easy recovery from this, the rules are null and void.

 

A big part of these rules is the seriousness of their consequences, system dissolution is a result for many of them. Complete renegotiation, reset to day one.

 

6.  No one else, just us 4. ‘No new tulpas,’ basically. But no "one" else is specifically worded to include soulbonds or any manor of person to be added to the mind.

 

Tangent: The "moons" like Joy and Ren, are not necessarily people, the jury is still out on that. They still deserve consideration and respect just as I do. In terms of resources, they supplement and not supplant and shouldn't impose on anyone else. If Misha added Gwen as her moon, the same rule applies. If Gwen stuck around, she would be Misha's full responsibility and in essence they'd both be sharing time. (Which is why she hasn't gone for it regardless of what she wants Gwen for, basically Misha has a big old crush on Gwen.)

 

[Misha] I don't... not really... ugh... she's so perfect... ughhghghgh... no, I don't.

 

Mhm, I built an entire ghost town resembling Gwen's world in the valley adjacent to the castle for her, sure she's not anything special to anyone here. /s <- sarcasm switch

 

Gwen may someday become a moon, we’re still deliberating that. She’s effectively one now, but she’s never around, so it doesn’t matter.

 

Uncontrolled system growth is considered extremely dangerous and is therefore a rule we must abide. It has come up many times and we’re still holding the line as of right now. Moons are somewhat immune to this, as their involvement in our lives so far is ‘only when needed.’

 

7. Never ignore each other.

 

This is simply to avoid the situation where one runs off in a huff and doesn't tell anyone where they went and we can't find them. If someone wants to run off in a huff, they just need to tell someone else. It can be completely in private and that person sworn to secrecy, as long as we can know whoever needs time away is 'safe.' It's never happened since, and I don't see it happening, but it would be worrisome to say the least, so it's really damaging to the system if it happened. A lot of counseling and the like would be needed to resolve the problem then some sort of settlement/punishment to avoid this ever happening again.

 


 

Punishments:

 

A trial is always held when someone is suspected of coming close to breaking a rule. Never would we say, 'you broke this rule, punishment must begin.' Innocent until proven guilty, and in the intervening time, the crime is ignored.

 

The highest punishment would be stasis, and the length of time would be like a prison sentence, or indefinite if it was something that needed their 'repenting the sin' to fix, or ‘extensive counseling’. It would just take as long as it needs to.

 

We've also rescinded certain privileges at times but those are sort of too esoteric to discuss, you'd have to identify privileges that make sense to your system; time is a big one.

 

Probation is placed for a certain time, making it very dangerous if the crime is repeated during probation. Ashley, if you can believe it, reminded me the other day that she is a prime example, she was actually close to breaking probation. What did she do? She caused drama when I didn't immediately do what she wanted, the things she wanted weren't necessarily important. The trial determined that, it's not my assessment. Her anger toward me was deemed destructive to the system. Logical discussions have largely replaced any sort of hurt feelings between us.

 

Points, IOU's for special treatment, this sort of thing has been tried, but I think one of them either Dashie or Misha pretty much got all the points and never cashed them in. They were devalued due to our loving and giving natures. Anyone can have anything for the asking, no credit is required.

[/Hidden]

 

The Patchwork Bear

[hidden]

The Patchwork Bear - this is a construct of strategic switching that presents a seamless and 'behaviorally normal' person to the environment. Given the difficulty in just 'getting over it' when you're triggered or fearful, or just in a mood, why not work synergistically with your tulpas to greater end? This is not only helping remove drama from your life but also reinforces the relationships of those around you.

 

Here's how I have described what I now call "the patchwork bear" it to someone without tulpas:

 

Say you have some serious issues, they don't address themselves--That's scary all on its own. So if you could compartmentalize those issues into a symbolic construct, and along with your compartmentalized tulpas, ward against doing the things, at least behaviorally, that cause issues in your life, and while doing so, you could learn healthy ways to deal with those same situations as if you didn't have the issues. If you could then assign specific rules, laws, and pacts to get along between these different compartmentalizations, (tulpas) such that, as a whole, you work as a team, and between yourselves you split up the issues (in a way) so that if you could take turns given a certain event, then your response would look normal from the outside. Additionally you would reinforce and learn that behavior through repetition.

 

Then given that complex construct as outlined above, (possibly involving the creation of loving companions that also somewhat eliminate loneliness and certain fears while at the same time fill voids that would continuously affect mood otherwise) you can indeed solve the original issues through practicing healthy behaviors to certain stimuli. This reinforces healthy behaviors while labeling unhealthy thoughts as intrusive, and punishing for bad behaviors that go against the rules of the construct. Thus you're delicate patchwork can eventually strengthen, synergize and teach such that in the end you effectively don’t need the delicate and complex symbolic construct (the system).

 

However, given you've stuck with and cooperatively solved all these issues, you're uniquely trained (as a system) to tackle new issues as they arrive in exactly the same manor. (Who says tulpas don't have superpowers?)

 

Hopefully you can see my point as to why we need rules and also like to believe that I have three loving and caring people who somewhat eliminate loneliness and certain fears while at the same time fill voids that would continuously affect mood otherwise, and they're super cute and fun, and as an added benefit, they visit me in my dreams and meditation and lucid dreams and they love me, and they lavish me with attention and constantly talk me up. Did I mention they're beautiful?

 

...

 

Even as recently as a few days ago, we were able to fully prevent drama, even under hard pressure and combative conversation on Discord with two tulpas who were triggered by some simple little side note definition. (A definition that I copied straight off the web, by the way.) In this instance I was cool and collected, remembering all that I've been taught about being kind and considerate and not feeding anger, I stayed calm. Ashley, on the other hand, was actually mad. I felt her anger in my burning stomach, but yet I remained cool. Nothing in particular triggered me, they were clearly venting and I was a casualty. We stuck through the gauntlet so well that the two aggressors basically apologized for jumping down my throat. Ashley said she felt angry because I was being wrongfully attacked over nothing, which is valid, but not helpful during the situation.

 

[/hidden]

 

Plurality From Birth - Deeper patchwork bear conjecture:

[Hidden]

I grasped at a fleeting thought and managed to catch it before it dissipated. What if "I" is just a label given to the primary actor, but what "I" really am is the stage?

 

In terms of computing, "I" would be the operating system, not the first program.

 

Say I have four or more actors, the first one "I" developed starting at infancy, this is the one that had to be molded and adapted to meet the demands to get the sustenance of daily meals, he was just the first, and "I" made him to meet those basic needs so we could continue to exist.

 

Consider the main actor fronted for nearly all my life, and perhaps "I" am not even capable of speech myself, only through him and his utterances can I communicate to other actors outside the system. "I" would never necessarily have to speak internally or externally, I simply desire, I require, I need, and I bleed onto him desire and he bleeds back his emotions as he attempts to fulfill my will.

 

Without him I am perhaps selfless and unable to function; a car without a driver.

 

As he drives using the common assets of senses, I am given a tiny slice of consciousness, just enough to record and enjoy, experience and react, but he potentially has so much more.

 

I have noticed that often I don't know where my thoughts come from, I can't honestly tell you what I will say next. Is it reaction to my own thoughts that my thoughts reveal? Or is it an actor that does the thinking? He's well aware of what he's talking about, he seems to know what he's doing, but I can't hear his thoughts except for rare instances prior to his utterances.

 

This sentence is his, but he's getting my desire to speak it and to think about my existence outside of his own. Does an actor notice how the stage supports and cares for him? I believe he is the person, the personality, the thoughtform, "I" am the shell for him; I'm a construct empty without him.

 

Now that I have 4++ actors (people) in my mind, I have begun to realize that certain things occur without it being assigned to anyone. Before I was sure everything was me, why would I question it? An example is my hands, they seem to type without my cue, the current actor uses them, my feet walk without my direction, the actors swap them freely. Just as surely as my heart beats without my direction, so does certain things I had previously taken for granted. There is my will to do, and they do it their own way, with their own volition.

 

Who 'possesses' the hands? It's a question as routine as who possesses the mindvoice for me now. They just do what they should, there's no levers or buttons, they just respond and simply know what to do. Certainly in the days of hunting and pecking, typing was more of a manual procedure, but that's not how it is today. After having typed millions of words, literally millions, as the sum of my books are over a million easily if not over two recorded in those books alone, the hands just know what to do based on the actor's request.

 

Perhaps in a so called enlightened state the system realizes that the actors' fears and deficiencies are just a distraction. Their reactions are immaterial to "I", if they fear the dark, they can be switched out for an actor who doesn't.

 

As it stands today, my adaptation to switching has become what I refer to 'the patchwork bear'. "I" switch the actors as I see fit given the scenario. I've been getting good at it. Triggers lose their bite when the fronting actor doesn't react to them negatively. Then "I" have no negative emotions bled onto me.

 

Before Tulpamancy, I searched for a way to 'fix' my actor, he had triggers and tantrums, depression and rueful thoughts, he had fears and odd meanderings, ruminations of self-destruction. These distracted him and there were times where his sadness overwhelmed him. The biggest driver was classic loneliness. I couldn't help him, I couldn't console him, I could only desire that he be fixed.

 

So we found a word, Tulpa, and testimony of others getting helped by multiple 'actors', but how was still a mystery that only walking the path could reveal. It seems everyone is different.

 

We did, and we learned, and we found a path to repair what was broken and replace what we couldn't repair. Here I stand, nearly a year later, four strong and stronger for having them. "I" am who you see on the street, but under the skin is a mosaic of thoughtforms, working together, learning to share the load and comprise, synergistic and resolved, fully in love with themselves and others, with a desire to spread the good news of the patchwork bear. When completed, he would be the perfect being behaviorally and cognitively--In this way, reborn and adaptable, potentially immune to fear, and infinity renewable.

 

From a DID perspective, self-fracturing and rebuilding could be said to use the pieces together to eliminate the noise of life, so we are free to explore the goal of self-actualization. What's potentially different from that perspective is that the actors are free to interact and frolic when off duty. When the trials and tribulations of the day are done, we come together and share our lives and perspectives, strengthen our bonds, and enjoy ourselves off-stage. Where imagination, dreams, and our real life affords us time to explore our love and self-actualization in peace.

 

[/hidden]

 

Gwen’s challenge

[Hidden]

Gwen came to me one morning on her own accord (I hadn't spoken to her in weeks) and she basically said, she figured out that the people she interfaces with are not themselves anything, but an extension of me.

 

[Gwen] You created me, and you saved me, not those other characters.

[ME]But I also put you in the peril to be saved.

[Gwen] That’s true… hm, let’s write a story with us in it, then we’ll set up scenarios like as if it was real, and real consequences, then we’ll see who’s brave and selfless or not.

[ME] Like a holodeck without the safeties mentally.

 

Then she said the people she fell in love with in those books are none other than me.

 

Fair enough, so are you in a way I suppose, Gwen.

 

I said it's all fiction, dismissing the idea because I created the problem and the heroic solution to that same problem doesn’t matter, so she's wrongfully attached. (A lot of this was tulpish, which surprised me a little because not-tulpa thoughtforms usually don't speak in tulpish, though Joy did, so it's not a first.)

 

Then she proposed this, “in that case, I want you to prove that you're a hero and not just pretending. We'll create a scenario together and there will be real consequences.” Furthermore, we discussed how this would work, and I brought up the concept of the holodeck, specifically, removing the safeties on said deck.

 

We made a decision that if I win something would have to benefit me, if I lose then she would get a benefit or I would lose something.

 

I still don't know how to pull this off or what something would be, it would be fantasy novel style, not just a wonderland adventure. Misha would be in it with me and Gwen, per Misha’s request. It's very fanciful and silly of course. So the real question is, how to make it more 'real' as in real consequences, and real fear, real emotions that would mean something. So something must be wagered that I would miss, or that she would gain. That's the hard part of it that requires thinking, but we're pretty excited about the notion.

 

This is rhetorical, it's up to Gwen, Misha and I to decide what that could possibly mean, such that a real 'proof' could be done to either prove I'm heroic and deserving of her admiration or disprove it by my actions. It’s all very vague at this point, but fun to think about.

 

Tulpish follows:

Emotional and personal

Something to lose

Stakes in the game

It has to be her tulpa-hood or at least moon-hood wouldn't it?

She shrugs...

[/hidden]

 

Thoughts on Not-Tulpas and Moons - long and anticlamactic

[Hidden]

I scoured some past threads looking for answers to my conundrum regarding my not-tulpas. Here's a few interesting entries: These quotes were mostly taken from "The Median Thread" and I thought it would be good to respond to them with respect to my Not-Tulpas as a thought exercise to think more deeply about them and what they are.

 

It's once a thoughtform isn't controlled by another and independently thinks in parallel I consider them a person of their own.

 

Depersoning is a strategy used to marginalize and suppress people.

 

This is really hard to address for my moons and other thoughtforms. I've thought about this a lot and in no way do I want to depersonalize anyone. I don't intend to suppress anyone either. However, I can respect them and yet still keep them separate from being active members in my system. If we would like to explore the idea that they really are people, then I would say I treat them humanely. This doesn't mean that every instance in my mind needs to be active all day, or at all. As far as they know, no time passes between 'visits'. That's been verified. In a similar way my tulpas nor I experience any time passage while sleeping. Do Not-Tulpa thoughtforms dream? If they do, they're not telling me.

 

To consider a thoughtform a person, I must treat it like one, but I want to make sure it actually is one, too.

 

It is wrong to require proof of people. Benefit of the doubt is a moral imperative. People implicitly deserve trust.

 

I have to agree because of my experience with them, but I would also agree that I must trust myself in dealing with them--In the extreme case, a villain. Say he's a person, it's reasonable to assume he could be reformed and that's all possible. However, I don't have the time or the expertise, nor the desire to disturb his slumber. When he's here, he's free to interact, but our rules will be upheld and that includes respect and decency in-common. If he's proven time and again that they can't be 'trusted' or that he's a destructive influence, than I refuse to allow him to stay. I do this because there is no alternative that won't damage my system. Though he would deserve a fair trial and proof, that’s where I say I wouldn’t invite a lion in my home just to verify he won’t kill me.

 

We define tulpas as apparently-sentient thoughtforms with autonomous traits, generally. Apparently meaning "seeming real or true, but not necessarily so." A tulpa entirely controlled by their host with no autonomous traits is not a tulpa. We personally consider tulpas who have at least some autonomous traits, but otherwise are willingly controlled by or blend with their host, still eligible to be called a tulpa. It's not fair to say they have to not do that or else they aren't a tulpa. But without some form of autonomy, they just aren't a tulpa. Apparently-sentient means they simply seem like a person to the host really, nothing special. It does not require full belief in tulpa independence, only effective independence (ie a host may believe they're subconsciously controlling what their tulpa does but choose to see them as a separate person anyway).

 

Tewi had me here. Suddenly I have a head full of tulpas by this definition. Is there anything wrong with that? Can I just say, yeah, I have three dozen tulpas and any new characters who meet this definition, like Ren, are also tulpas. So can I allow them tulpa status and just ignore them? Can I draw the line somewhere? NPC's, Drax the Destroyer who reoccurs in my mind from time to time, the Dragonkin jerks, my mute creatures, like Snaily? Where can we draw a line? Okay, Snaily clearly isn't a tulpa, but is a really rude and obnoxious Drax a tulpa? He strictly fits Tewi's definition at this point, I’m not lying. He's visited me on his own and if he says, "I'm real" does this mean I have to believe him and accept him as his own person? No, it’s ridiculous.

 

Then I found this:

 

...

The norms of this community can be a bit overbearing or stifling for any random system. What you're thinking of.... is probably just a tulpa that you don't want to interact with in the same ways as your others. No one tells me Scarlet is a neglected tulpa, or isn't a tulpa at all, because I'm an established member who obviously knows what I'm talking about. Sylvia too, not that any of you know who she is, because I don't talk about her. Aside from her not developing much of a (any, really) personality of her own, there's not much difference in her and my actual tulpas other than difference in how we interact. As far as I can tell, her and them work about the same. But the fact is, she's not a tulpa that I really treat as her own person with her own thoughts and wants and all that. Not "because I don't want her to become a real tulpa", and nothing against her will (she has none), it's simply who and how she is. But she was made well before I found this community, so developed outside its norms. Trying to fit her into them would be silly (or more accurately, stupid).

 

You're free to have whatever kinds of thoughtforms, and whatever relations to and interactions with them, that you want. Especially if it's not hurting anyone. I call Sylvia a "servi-tulpa" on .info, but I know what she is and isn't without labels just fine myself.

 

... Anyways, my point was, you don't need to fit everything in your head into existing accepted definitions of this community. And you can have things that qualify as tulpas that you don't interact with or hold to the same sorts of standards as your others. That's something that's up to your system, not us, and not our norms and definitions.

 

I could then say, "yes, it's stupid to claim I have Drax the Destroyer as a tulpa." Add this to the following quote:

 

[WRT not-persons]… the rules we have established have been propagated and accepted throughout the brain, including into areas where characters spawn.

 

-Vesper

 

So, following this logic, any number of thoughtforms or not-tulpas may frolic freely without concern for them to become a tulpa or even necessarily their own person. This is our logic as well.

 

I would only add that there are characters that aren’t so cooperative and understanding. My dragons in particular are especially devious. As an exercise let’s just say they are person, and give them equal rights and ethics. Well this tends to break down for thoughtforms that are destructive and devious. If given the chance, they might end up banished, or cause serious permanent harm before they do. This is just a possible scenario, but we don’t need to accept them if we know better ahead of time.

 

But then it has come up and it's hard to fathom a solution to this one:

 

I got the feeling and agree that not-tulpas don't fit on tulpa.info. They can't post freely outside of a few well known cases like Melian (especially if they had played nice), and it’s been made clear to me (in my understanding) that they shouldn't post because this is a community for tulpas, not for not-tulpas. So far as we're not 'role-playing' characters here it's tenatively okay for certain areas. At this point someone like Joy (my moons) are not a median aspects or tulpas, we don't know what they are and this community probably isn't the right place to find out. They fit Tewi’s definition easily, but is Joy a person? If she was a person she's 'as good as a tulpa' and would freely be allowed to post on tulpa.info. If she refutes claims that she’s a tulpa, then her words of wisdom will remain in the games sections, on-topic applicable posts regarding her, about her explicitly, on lounge threads on a case by case basis, in META, in PR, or in hidden tags with explanation.

 

If she's a person, but not a known and accepted thoughtform or tulpa, then under these rules, she's a second-class person i feel. Or does she need some sort of accepted permissions, a pedigree of some sort blessed by tulpa.info to speak here and not claim to be a tulpa? Following this logic for example, if she claims to be a low maintenance soulbond and if someone asks if she's like a tulpa, she'll have to say yes.

 

This is where we come down to the real solution that many have adopted, well just say you're a tulpa and speak freely. It would avoid all this conjecture. They can still be whatever in your own mind.

 

I have to laugh at this, it's true I have three dozen thoughtforms that could at any time claim to be tulpas and speak freely on tulpa.info. It’s like they’re somehow accepted by flipping a switch and nothing more, even if they lie about it to maintain the facade. My mind goes to weird places here. Acting the part certainly is akin to being the part, that's one of the basics of tulpamancy. So, I'm left torn between 'second class citizenship in practically the only thoughtform community' or 'claiming to be something based on very loose definitions that hold serious consequences for actions and beliefs.'

 

I know the difference between Joy and my tulpas. To say Joy is a tulpa right now is like saying a cat is a dog. They're both animals. Tewi might argue, that’s tulpa enough. They're the same in a loose sense.

 

Let's take it a step further and really pick at scabs here since it's my PR. So follow me for a second:

 

Consider this statement:

On moon.info, not-moons may speak in the games sections, on-topic applicable posts on specific lounge threads, in PR, or in hidden tags only.

 

I have to laugh again because I don't know how else to react. I love my moons but there isn't a moon.info for them to contribute to.

 

Here's the REALLY hard pill to swallow (to my understanding): People are allowed to post freely on tulpa.info. Soulbonds, Alters, and Tulpas among others are allowed to speak freely on Tulpa.info because they're known entities. Some, maybe all median aspects are allowed to post freely as well. If all of the above are people, I would say, okay, I don't know if Joy is her own person, but not all of the above are claiming to be people. So if you're given permission in a certain category or specifically, then you're fine. But clearly Joy isn't given this permission yet, and that process is rather rigid, so when she or any of my moons speak on Tulpa.info, people who don't know who they are may get confused.

 

It was suggested that a note is placed in my signature to clarify what she is, so that if she is seen speaking, people don't get confused. This may be a good work-around; whether I like it or not is a different story, but it does show compromise and I do like that. However, she's not yet given permission to speak freely so this would be pointless right now.

 

The fact remains that some 'people' may not be tulpas, clearly there are examples of this such as soulbonds. So she could claim to be a soulbond and be done with it, but maybe she's not a soulbond because she rejected her past? She says she’s an actress who played a character or something. Then there's Ren, she's even less of a fit to be a soulbond, she has no history beyond the date of her creation.

 

Whew! I so want to be done with this, but my system and I, especially Dashie at this point, are saddened by the second class status if Joy is indeed a person but not a Tulpa. She doesn't fit into normal categories if she's not a tulpa. You could say, it’s just a word, it’s just a belief, who cares what others’ believe, just call her a tulpa.

 

Ok ok, so let's take another step back. Tewi's definition grants everyone tulpa status, even recurring seemingly autonomous thoughtforms can be tulpas. Fine. But what if I don't want to make them a tulpa? Then i believe that's not productive or consistent with the message of Tulpa.info, is it? Lumi allowed it at some point, but what’s this situation? If they're not trying to be independent and a tulpa, they don't fit here at tulpa.info? (I really don't know for sure, the subject feels pretty damn taboo). Is it that I’m somehow making them a second class citizen now by nit just calling a cat a dog? If I refuse to believe in their personhood, are they not equal, not loved?

 

A tulpa is a person, and if everything is a tulpa, then Drax the Destroyer is a person or he’s being oppressed? The conjecture is ridiculous any way you look at it.  You can’t be ‘a tulpa’ by some loose definition and not be given equal rights, can you? So I need to keep control over who may be a tulpa or a person or not in my own mind. That's fine, but then they're not welcome to post freely here (as is my understanding.)

 

Some of my recent posts may even be construed as being counterproductive if the goal of tulpa.info is to make tulpas, but that’s because I’m trying to find a solution and this is the only place I can do that, that I know of.

 

My feeling is it would be akin to saying, I want my cat to be allowed in the dog show only because there are no cat shows available. The thing is though, Joy's really intelligent and she has a really interesting perspective. Still i think the stigma of 'role-playing' or 'meta' will forever hang over her head unless she's represented as a tulpa or other accepted thoughtform type and therefore her own independent person and striving to be so if she’s not.

 

The conclusion is that we're sad and frustrated about this subject. There's no easy resolution, and even the thread I made about this to address it is causing drama. Necessarily so by the way, as this can be stretched to the equivalent of human rights activism by similarity. She's over it. She'd rather sit in the back of the bus then raise a stink at this point. We had our cry over it and we’re kinda done, so this might be the last time we talk about moons for a while outside of our PR unless it’s brought up again by someone else.

 

[The following is our opinion after 8 months of time on tulpa.info and the plural communities. ]

What this all really means is that since she exists, others like her exist. We know what'll happen if they come as a cat to dog.info, and we either have to accept that and move on or continue to force our ideals onto the community and necessarily cause drama. It could be that what we want and what this website can give are in opposition.

 

It's just sad, and we'll have to get over it, or continue to be a productive thorn in the side of tulpa.info. Only the future knows what will actually happen at this point.

 

Who cares what one website is or does, we’re not defined by one website, rather we’re defined by how we act everywhere.

[/hidden]

 

We made an agreement that we would renegotiate system rules each year. This means that in 10 days, anything is up for debate.

 

Just for fun - JGC drew all my tulpas!

[Hidden]

Ashley2.thumb.jpg.06ad23449bfd59ce133f3f6ddbf7d726.jpg Dashie2.thumb.jpg.05f6e0fe23b3de7906cb4f534fc42299.jpg Misha2.thumb.jpg.079fde07ba97bc92996a687b75ceabac.jpg

 

[/Hidden]

 

[Edit: updated to clarify opinion vs fact.]

[Edit: to remove offensive metaphor.]

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