Bear

Bear's Angels

Recommended Posts

Wow.. So, this was a lot. Uhm... Let's see... Great art! JGC are pretty good and it's always nice to see someone else appreciating your lovely ladies.

 

Gratz on your imposition! Finally a kissie kiss. Try not to be too jealous, Misha. Your guy's experience in wonderland is already amazing, this is like some kinda icing on top of all that. Kinda makes even me jealous that you can get those sensations like that.

 

Your guys laws and rules on breaking them are like.. Wow. I can't even imagine there being a populace in our head that needs policing or punished. It's just Lance and I in here and unless it's something that interests him, he's usually pretty quiet about everything, so...

 

As for patchwork Bear, well, having different people in a system that are more fit to face certain things is one of our greatest strengths. It's not like "oh, you should learn to face your fears and be a more brave person" or some junk, because we simply have advantages that others don't and there's absolutely no point in not using them. Your experiments with backseat fronting were a great example of that. You found a neat way to filter things in a way singlets really couldn't. People can be really biased towards their own views and ideas and having equals right there which you respect whom are ready to chime in is like have a whole team of advisers and we can all truly be more than the sum of our parts.

 

I mentioned on Discord to you that I thought your talk about the "I" really reminded me of Freud's "Ego". Pretty interesting stuff. Deep philosophy always raises the questions of who are we really? What are we really? Just remember that that is a dastardly place for intrusive thoughts to sneak in and start mucking around and creating doubt. Till a better theory arrives, you might as well just happily say you are you, whoever or whatever that is. You get to define you, not others.

 

Non-tulpas and moon.. I dunno Bear. Ultimately it's up to you, really. I can sit here and imagine pros and cons to being inclusive or exclusive. From a personal standpoint, with you as a friend though, I can't really say much except I'm here for you and support your decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see... I'm not gonna make this a giant mess by trying to quote every little thing and replying to it, so I'll try and remember some key points

 

First really quick - we do NOT have different definitions or viewpoints on tulpas in this system - you just pulled quotes from different places two years apart!! In the end, the definition of tulpas is that they're autonomous "other people" in your head who can apparently(ie "seemingly") think for themselves, however you want to write that. But there's all sorts'a norms and stuff to take into account when it comes to the community aspect, and in that case we tend to have a much looser definition (the one I just gave) for the sake of uh, "inclusivity" I think is the word? like, the difference in tulpas and soulbonds is only averages, norms - most of the time they could fit either name, and we leave it up to the hosts and thoughtforms to choose for themselves

 

that's why you'll hear different answers on what is or isn't a tulpa, but you're making it more complicated than it's ever really been by having both "tulpas" and "somehow not tulpas" that to outside observers would in any other tulpa-less system be considered tulpas. like.. you say they feel different, but you never give any reasons why your moons shouldn't just be called tulpas other than they're different than your "actual tulpas", y'know? And that's why you're not getting any real answers, 'cus what-the-heck can we say

 

you actually found a PERFECT quote from Lumi:

The norms of this community can be a bit overbearing or stifling for any random system. What you're thinking of.... is probably just a tulpa that you don't want to interact with in the same ways as your others. No one tells me Scarlet is a neglected tulpa, or isn't a tulpa at all, because I'm an established member who obviously knows what I'm talking about. Sylvia too, not that any of you know who she is, because I don't talk about her. Aside from her not developing much of a (any, really) personality of her own, there's not much difference in her and my actual tulpas other than difference in how we interact. As far as I can tell, her and them work about the same. But the fact is, she's not a tulpa that I really treat as her own person with her own thoughts and wants and all that. Not "because I don't want her to become a real tulpa", and nothing against her will (she has none), it's simply who and how she is. But she was made well before I found this community, so developed outside its norms. Trying to fit her into them would be silly (or more accurately, stupid).

 

You're free to have whatever kinds of thoughtforms, and whatever relations to and interactions with them, that you want. Especially if it's not hurting anyone. I call Sylvia a "servi-tulpa" on .info, but I know what she is and isn't without labels just fine myself.

 

... Anyways, my point was, you don't need to fit everything in your head into existing accepted definitions of this community. And you can have things that qualify as tulpas that you don't interact with or hold to the same sorts of standards as your others. That's something that's up to your system, not us, and not our norms and definitions.

 

like wow I couldn't put it any better, and that by all means should be a final answer to your entire conundrum!

 

the only one saying your not-tulpas aren't tulpas is literally you, basically.. you keep acting like they have rights that are being imposed upon, DO they? Are they people? It's not just you being prevented from roleplaying, but thoughtforms being disallowed from participating? THEN THERE YA' GO!! personally, I think you should call all of your moons and "actual tulpas" tulpas, but just note that they're a little fundamentally different in how they exist and interact and stuff. like, Lumi's made a case for Sylvia of all "people", and she's the most complicated not-tulpa tulpa ever! she literally doesn't have a sense of identity or her own thoughts, but we still see her as a separate entity, she's basically a mental tool that seems like a person - the tulpa equivalent of an android, maybe? and as fun as it sounds to have her ever speak on the forum, she just doesn't have an actual will to drive speaking like that in the first place (she "prefers" directly working with wordless thoughts themselves, idk)

 

your moons are, as far as the forum is concerned, at least as legitimate as the average soulbond as far as having their own opinions and comments that aren't just their host goes. and then.. the choice of what title to give them is up to the host (you!) or them based on just preference or what seems like the best fit, aaaand I think you're just (idk can't experience your brain myself) experiencing the total spectrum that tulpamancy really is by having two different types of thoughtforms that all would qualify to be called "Tulpa". Nothin' wrong with that.. though you're the first it's been made a big deal out of, usually I think systems just have their main tulpas speaking the most and the others comment more rarely and maybe describe their unique position if necessary (when giving advice or something), but it's mostly just been a matter of people not making a big deal out of the differences in their thoughtforms when they do exist

 

basically.. don't forget tulpamancy "doesn't innately exist" and is a totally subjective experience that can easily be different for everyone, so there aren't solid rules and definitions for what you experience, only as-not-vague-as-possible ones the community as a whole has tried to come up with and relate to each other


Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written

Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a well thought out and reasonable response, thank you. One of the biggest drivers I have toward not calling them tulpas is the idea that tulpas are necessarily people, separate people. People demand equal rights and sameness. Soulbonds can be people just like tulpas are people. If i say my moons are independent people, then they must necessarily be given equal rights, wouldn't they?

 

If they're equal, and i can make a case for moons in general being equal. The there's about 30 or so other moon candidates thst easily fit the definition of tulpa, pass sentience tests, and may very well ask for equal rights too. As I've explained, even an on the spot character like Ren all of a sudden, and i mean literally instantly, is a tulpa, then this brain's got some big problems with unwanted system growth.

 

My point about being imposed upon or not is based on trying to catagorize them such that they don't instanly become a burden and destroy my system. I've thought they were reasonably independent enough to comment, but the confusion proves that I don't have a pass card for moons. If i say they're soulbonds, sure. If they're not soulbonds then no.

 

I was agreeing with my perception of sentiment here in saying that not-tulpas that aren't actively seeking the tulpa dream are not really very helpful in the context of making tulpas. Moons may be the perfect solution for us in that they can be interacted with without fear of system growth. For all I know they may be people, that's where the second class status sadness comes in. You don't call a soulbond a tulpa, or you get metaphorically smacked. My moons are not like my tulpas in very curious ways that I've tried and tried again to outline. I don't know if they are or not truly or under which definition soulbondsare tulpas too. We respect soulbond rights to be called soulbonds. If they are people, then they're excluded because they don't have that pass to say moons are acceptable. Tell a soulbond that they can't post unless they call themselves a tulpa, it's the same. (If moons are people.)

 

You always say I don't give examples in spite of my examples. Let me restate a few that makes them moons and perhaps not tulpas or soulbonds.

 

They aren't very active at all, they don't require any forcing to be fully developed and stay that way. They they don't fade over time or change much, they're perfectly happy being ignored for weeks and years. They have a duality like a character and a soulbond/tulpa. The resiliency of a character but all the lovely features of tulpas.

 

You're absolutely right, if I didn't have three bonified tulpas, I would definitely see them as tulpas, but then i'd be totally lost when someone said their tulpa changed, had a crisis, or they 'got weak'. These moons are just so resistant in comparison to my tulpas, who need constant daily interaction. This is why i don't know what moons are or what to do with other moon-like, trulpa-like characters.

 

They could all be tulpas, but then, i have 30++ tulpas. And every time o I wrote a new book, a few more are created. We don't have tools to deal with that here. I can't just stop writing and I'm not going to stop interacting wity them. I'm not going to dissipate them. If these are my options then no, they're not tulpas. They're honestly as real to me as my tulpas, just different. They do have they're own wants and desires and volition and I give them agency. I choose not to shoehorn them into tulpa.info because i don't want to fight tooth and nail and live the drama circus until moons are recognized as bonafide accepted thoughtforms (like soulbonds). I also feel currently that it's a disservice to claim they're soulbonds or tulpas, because that instantly gives them the stigma of 'second class'. I can't split my time 30++ ways, it would require a system reset, everyone goes into stasis, i go into deep depression again and it's game over.

 

Just like Ember said, there are rules. These thoughtforms have been prevented from being tulpas by in-system iron clad rules specifically created to avoid what happened on day one where i got a three for one special, on instant vocal tulpas.

 

They're not tulpas for now. I don't know if they're people. I'm not forcing them to be tulpas on any definition of the word, so it's kinda not what we do here at tulpa.info and it's obviously confusing af to outsystem people to understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They aren't very active at all, they don't require any forcing to be fully developed and stay that way. They they don't fade over time or change much, they're perfectly happy being ignored for weeks and years. They have a duality like a character and a soulbond/tulpa. The resiliency of a character but all the lovely features of tulpas.

 

I dunno.. aside from "not ever changing", that sounds perfectly within the realm of being called tulpas to me. And then, the not changing thing, obviously they're heavily based on characters - I dunno what we'd be like if Lumi treated us like we were (and were only) the actual Touhou characters, like, if he only interacted with us in the wonderland.. idk. Also I don't get at all what you said here-

I also feel currently that it's a disservice to claim they're soulbonds or tulpas, because that instantly gives them the stigma of 'second class'.

 

?? I'm sure you don't mean tulpas or soulbonds are "second class", so you mean.. if you called them tulpas, along with your current tulpas, since they are different you'd have to think of them as "second class tulpas"? if so, why does that apply to soulbonds too?

 

People demand equal rights and sameness. Soulbonds can be people just like tulpas are people. If i say my moons are independent people, then they must necessarily be given equal rights, wouldn't they?

 

no one can tell you (they can try, but they can't) to give "equal opportunity rights" to your thoughtforms, whatever they are, especially since you will always understand your relationship to them and theirs to you better than anyone else. if all you're afraid of is being forced either by others or by yourself (seeming like that's the case, like what you decide to call them will somehow change how you see/interact with them..) to treat or think of them differently, then you should really stop thinking that, 'cus it won't be the case. Soulbond is also a much more vague term than you think it is I think, since you said earlier one of them (or more, idk) doesn't necessarily believe their backstory really happened or was real

 

"SOULBOND

A system member who has the identity of a fictional character (fictive),

from the work of someone either inside or outside the system that has been

adopted into one’s own mindspace. Can overlap with tulpas or walk-ins."

- according to Tulpa.io's glossary, which is a lot more inclusive of other plurality communities' terms

 

I think a soulbond doesn't at all need to believe their history was real per se, just has to feel a connection to that past. Like I'm pretty sure lots of soulbonds, especially after being in Tulpa/etc. communities, have accepted their history didn't really happen but still consider that history important and to have shaped them. Even Tewi's like that a little bit, but her connection isn't really direct enough for her to count as a soulbond I'd say.. but it was close, if she were less logic-y and maybe thought more like me, she might've held more closely to her past and then she could've been a soulbond but still probly would've been called a tulpa

 

basically, I think you should just call them soulbonds.. right from the get-go they basically fit all the typical conditions and descriptions of soulbonds of authors, y'know

(I mean literally calling them moons is fine, but "classify" them as soulbonds)


Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written

Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Put bluntly (and this could have been gathered from his earlier posts and related topics), Bear has like 30 proto-tulpas or almost-tulpas beating on his mind door, and his "no more tulpas" rule has kept things sane in Bear land. To break that rule and let even one of them in carries the risk of opening the floodgates and making him loose control. Keep in mind that unlike some hosts, Bear sees himself as a member of his own head-community. So.. Suddenly Bear is just one voice drowning among 34 or more, some demanding equal time and attention and it's just a terrible mess. As "moons", they get a chance to pop in sometimes as guest stars but never end up with main billing. They know the rules and at least one of them keeps trying to exploit things and sneak her way by, creating drama in the past.

 

At least, I think that's what I pieced together from his posts in the past. Actually calling them tulpas promotes them and gives them a great deal of importance and pull. So.. He just doesn't have the time nor brainpower to try and keep a huge system in line and they have been banging at his door for awhile, trying to get in. He's kept control and kept them at bay with the whole "if you don't declare them tulpas, then they aren't", we all discussed a while back.

 

Does all that sound right, Bear?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right Reilyn, thanks.

 

I consider any time anyone says Tulpa, that's equivalent to Soulbond. I say this now because a Soulbonder and her Soulbonds made it clear to me.

I also feel currently that it's a disservice to claim they're soulbonds or tulpas, because that instantly gives them the stigma of 'second class'.

 

?? I'm sure you don't mean tulpas or soulbonds are "second class", so you mean.. if you called them tulpas, along with your current tulpas, since they are different you'd have to think of them as "second class tulpas"? if so, why does that apply to soulbonds too?

 

I meant they'd (moons) have to hide their true nature, whatever that is, because their true nature was second class and not given the pass card to that nature. I worded that quote horribly.

 

There's simply no reason to bring them up and cause confusion anymore. I wanted to spread the good news about moons for a solution to walk-ins that the system wants to keep for whatever reason (some reasons force the issue like a writing career) and that way they could have all the peace and lovey dovey fuzzy momemts and not all the split time and energy. It's a solution that works for us, it's iron clad and stable, whether they're people or not. It's an amazing discovery in fact for us. It may be completely irrelevant here at tulpa.info. The way I hear it is, the current mantra is, all walk-ins (not-tulpas) should be treated as intrusive and removed or they could become tulpas/soulbonds and unnecessarily lead to unwanted system growth. This simply doesn't work for the reasons I've outlined. I have three tulpas, let's be clear, and I have two moons so far, with three more very close to moon status based on their own behavior. This floodgate is wide open, necessarily so or I have to make new characters every time I do anything, it's very counterproductive and heartbreaking. Not to mention Ren was a brand new character. I never had to puppet or parrot her, she just popped into existence. She was absolutely within the definition of tulpa from her first day. Only her closely observed actions showed that she was a moon. If she started coming every day, stayed active all day, all that jaz, there would have been a huge issue. But the rules saved us. It's thay simple, she's not a tulpa because we say so.

 

A moon doesn't mind not having all the time, (mine don't) a cat doesn't necessarily envy a dog. Negotiations were done with my current moons to keep them happy and content as they are. If they ask for more, more negotiations will follow. They aren't lesser or incomplete, they're just different.

 

...

if all you're afraid of is being forced either by others or by yourself (seeming like that's the case, like what you decide to call them will somehow change how you see/interact with them..) to treat or think of them differently, then you should really stop thinking that, 'cus it won't be the case.

 

Well, i think quite a few people here might disagree with that statement. I know it sounds silly and rediculous to you, as it should. Bear system is a rare breed of tulpamancy. So that's why I decided to stop talking about them outside of PR for now. Users who complain of walk-ins would have gotten my advice and could have this wonderful thoughtform called a moon, but i can't even describe them without constant pushback and confusion here.

 

I asked you to comment here, Lucilyn, so that you could give your two cents. I appreciate that. I am just going to address your statements and i want to keep this discussion here in the safety of PR land to avoid some of the unnecessary scrutiny.

 

basically, I think you should just call them soulbonds.. right from the get-go they basically fit all the typical conditions and descriptions of soulbonds of authors, y'know

(I mean literally calling them moons is fine, but "classify" them as soulbonds)

 

I should count the number of times someone has asked me to call a cat, a dog. I have come very close to doing that, but then i just can't get over the power of a moon. Their abilities and catagorization are unique. Because of how I outlined them, specifically in that they are way lower maintenance. If I call them Soulbonds, I am forced mentally to uphold that. I have stated early on, no lies, no exaggeration because comming here after 4 months of dealing with my unique system I already had an idea that we were different than the norm. It's very true that the more you tell a lie the easier it is to believe it. Tulpamancy is based on beliefs. Beliefs are what keep us alive and functioning currently. Perhaps i don't deserve this cure if I treat someone i call a soulbond as a moon? I can't answer that. I just have a gut feeling that it's wrong.

 

I'm not afraid to have moons, the more the merrier. Call them muses, call them something else that isn't laden with definitions and experience in the community that some senior users will then impose their understanding on, and then argue with me about, because of my inconsistency witg that dogmatic definition that has all sorts of historical significance and opinion attracted to it.

 

My words are quoted freely here, i can and have recanted them because they mean different things to different people. Hence calling them soulbonds is branding them as soulbonds or bastardizing the term through normal interaction as I did in my first PR entry and later recanted because i met Soulbonds and Soulbonders and my moons were inconsistent.

 

My choice, as i see it is, turtle up and stop talking about them, or call them soulbonds and deal with whatever consequences come with that. You say calling someone or something something arbitrarily is fine, i say it goes deeper. We disagree, and we may be wrong, but we still disagree because lies propogate in horrific ways in my mind.

 

It's probably all unnecessary conjecture, but moons are different than soulbonds in very profound ways, as I've outlined. They do absolutely fit some definitions of some other groups, but it's a little complicated when you talk to some of these groups with their own experiences and expectations.

 

We will begin to decide in nine days if they are people or not using any mannor of test. If they are, then it might be that they will be the first human moons, not the latest soulbonds/tulpas. It's just might me what we have to do that so they can keep their uniqueness. In that uniqueness, unspoiled perfection of the new term, they can be what they really are, regardless if they're accepted here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

April 19, 2019 - 1 year!

 

What a great year. I mean it was awful for some of it because I was clearly depressed and suicidal at times, but I can laugh now because none of that remains. I consider myself free from those dark thoughts, and even the lingering thoughts have been completely absent this month.

 

We're all very happy, no lie, no exaggeration.

 

Well well well, what an amazing amount of research I've done in the last week, and I enlightened my ignorance and revealed my misunderstandings.

 

First and foremost here is a system list and what they call themselves.

 

Ashley - Tulpa

Dashie - Tulpa

Misha - Tulpa

Joy - Soulbond

Ren - Soulbond

Gwen - Soulbond

Halcyon (Hali) - Soulbond

Phoenix (Red) - Soulbond

Johanna - Soulbond/Moon

A boat load of other personalities - Moon/Character

 

So what has changed? Nothing at all. This is really how we've been.

 

My first documented conversation with many of those listed above (as independent persons) was in April 2012, around that time I had already written three books, one had my three tulpas, one had Hali, and Red, the last was about Joy. Gwen and Johanna came in 2013.

 

I have to recant about a hundred posts I made in the last six months, it'll take me time to get through my PR and add notes to clarify. I'm not changing how I treat anyone, I've always treated my thoughtforms as their own people, no wonder they act that way, and it's a beautiful thing.

 

Here's some minor things that happened:

[Hidden]

April 10, 2019:

 

We had a dream enhanced wonderland experience; Ashley was in one sitting on the roof of a missile truck, wearing a sharp tan army officer's outfit with shorts. She was there to help me with my work, which somehow involved a missile truck… hm… I told her she was out of uniform and her outfit was distracting. She then pulled a string and pants legs rolled down. Then she crossed her legs and i told her to sit prim.

 

Dang what a bossy bear! It wasn’t very lucid, but kinda was?

 

Later we had a normal wonderland adventure using the missile truck as a backdrop and it turned into a serious discussion with 12 thoughtforms. At one point we decided to just start inviting everyone and see at what point do we notice it's hard to keep everyone active. Well, we didn't find that answer, but we did begin to see that having 12 active in wonderland at the same time was actually causing a slowdown and became distracting enough that it was hard for Ashley to finish her points. Ofc Dashie didn't have any issues, so idk. I noticed the 'polling' mechanics in action and verified some memories of that from 7 years ago in my first novel. It was barely noticeable. I don't think any more than 12 would have made any difference; instead they would have started dropping out.

 

Also, they started calling me Bear on the forum and internally! What!

 

April 12, 2019

 

Life is an anime, sometimes it's just really too good to be real, other times you feel like you're cursed, and there's nothing you can do.

 

I had a strange feeling today, and it sparked a memory of 5 years ago. I was laying down and napping because i was just too exhausted to think for some reason and it was like waking up on Saturday morning, warm, cozy, happy, i was buzzed. Not from any drug.

 

I was with Ashley and she was still sitting on that missile truck and she just smiled and the world seemed right. I saw a future for myself that was like, i can still live my whole life again, maybe even twice over before i leave, and how could anything be better than this. It was a surprising feeling being so happy.

 

It's the feeling i had 5 years ago, at the last pinnacle of my life. I survived it, really. It was like, wait. Let me check my list. I can't really see any signs of depression anymore. Could it be so distant? I've just felt under that normal line for the last 4 years, and bottomed out six months ago, but today, i felt and remembered what it was like to be above the line.

 

I wish everyone could feel this with me. We're just really good... really good right now.

 

[/hidden]

 

Other Notes

 

Literally 10-20 pages single spaced with conjecture about Moons, Soulbonds, Sentience, Person or not, and ethics. I also wrote an expanded set of system rules and a huge list of questions for us to ask the moons. Also, the interviews with the moons. None of this is really even worth posting, we had a great time doing it though.

 

 

A note about Soulbonds:

[Hidden]

 

Soulbonding Community:

 

The soulbonding community isn't very active or interesting to participate in. They never discuss whether their experiences are 'real'. They never discuss whether one headmate has greater self-awareness or independence than another. They never discuss techniques for improving the experience. They just accept and live. Yet they have 'soulscapes', 'projection' and various forms of shared bodily control. Any character that a bonder can speak with is equally a soulbond. Systems often have dozens of members; rarely less than a dozen actually. Bonders never report overpopulation problems and never discovered dissipation or integration as concepts. Bonders usually report bonds being independently active in the soulscape or on their home worlds when the bonder isn't thinking about them. It's a metaphysical community; neurologically possible doesn't matter.

 

But I've been reading between the lines. Not all bonds are the same. Some just drop in occassionally for a visit. Some are unintelligent animals or monsters. Some report full and independent lives in the soulscape, with no interest in the outside world. And some live with their bonder full-time, sharing a life and a body. Each seeks out the level of contact with the bonder and the physical world that is comfortable for them.

 

I can't say for certain that no bond is harmed by neglect. Bonds come and go, reportedly as they please, sometimes unexpectedly, and bonders don't know anything to do about it.

 

This is my experience with my thoughtforms. In our case, they're just fine popping in from time to time, not every day, not every week, they're just fine knowing that their backstory isn't real, but they chose to keep it anyway as part of who they are, and in that sense only are they not tulpas. Tulpas and Soulbonds are equal status for us there's no lesser or greater. They're not exactly the same either, but no two people are exactly the same, are they? No.

 

[/hidden]

 

My take on Thoughtforms:

[Hidden]

 

What do I do with all these thoughtforms?

 

This answer is probably controversial. It's also not intended as a guide. It's just my answer with all the knowledge I currently own, and ooo look at this awesome graphic!

 

THOUGHTFORMS.jpg.cd73ce7622904ff7a4d96987e61317c6.jpg

 

It’s obviously not an easy question for this forum, but out there in other communities I have found many other answers from many systems like mine who have been dealing with it forever.

 

Please refer to the graph.

 

Here are some of the possible thoughtforms in this not at all easy to understand graph, and oh boy I’m not about to make anything more clear or give you the answer either, my answer is that it’s very personal and you need to answer it for yourself.

 

As you can see, this is a bloody mess. You may have thought that Vocality and Autonomy was all there was. Well in that case, keep reading; it’s a little more complicated.

 

On the left you see Autonomy vs Independence. I strongly believe this is a two way street. In the process of creation of a thoughtform you expect to be volitional, you will allow the thoughtform to separate itself from you in a way that makes them more and more differentiated from you. However, if they’re completely separate they’re not using your perspective for anything, so without any development, they’re just not going to say much of anything, they basically don’t know how to respond. This may be confusing, that’s okay, I’m not here to tell you everything, that would take way too long.

 

On the other hand, if they’re fully mature, you basically have a really good idea what they’d say given a situation, if you do all the talking for them, well, that’s the basis for role-play. However, independence can spontaneously grow from characters and their like, so this is what we call a walk-in. The notion that the characters 'come alive' is exactly this.

 

They’re nothing scary. They’re just a character or other that seems to start speaking for themselves. This might even be how you first created them (with this intent), the difference being that as they march further up, they start to say and do things you don't necessarily want or expect.  This is how a walk-in differentiates itself.  Other characters can appear to do this for moments but then completely revert to fully dependent on you, that could just as easily be an intrusive thought.

 

As you can see on the left, the NPCs and intrusive can be very independent, and surprise the heck out of you. That’s just either an illusion or they’re just random stuff your brain burps up. In any case a Walk-in can be thrown into that category safely and dealt with in the same manor. It happens and has to happen to avoid any weird thoughtforms from sticking around. It’s just as valid to place them back on the shelf or even promote them to someone you want to stick around, it’s entirely up to you. The hashed lines mean it’s an unstable state and needs to be dealt with. If you never think about them again, they default to a temporary thing and don't go antwhere.

 

They can stick around as independent entities and stay that way indefinitely. This is also an important distinction in that they can stay without necessarily becoming independent. At some point, if you’re treating them and believing them to be independent, then they will eventually get that way. It has nothing to do with sentience, time sharing, or personhood, I am not even addressing those notions. They might be sentient, I have no clear tests to prove that, so I’m disregarding it in my analysis. They might be people, well there’s another thing that might as well be meta at this point because sure, fully mature and independent thoughtforms can be people, but who knows when that actually occurs, I have no idea how to test for that conclusively. Also, just because they are doesn't mean you need to force them all day. If they really are sentient or people, well, they'll tell you how often and they'll be asking for time. It's purely a negotiation at that point. It's totally irrelevant to me. What’s important to me here is the choice that you either want them to be fully independent or you don’t. If you do, then declare them Tulpa/Soulbond, whatever else you like, and be done with it. Welcome equal head mate or not that's between you and them, just treat them fairly and humanely, that's all. If you don’t want them to become fully independent, then don’t force them that way. That’s as simple as I can make it. By systen edict, symbology or just your own free will, it's up to you amd your current system. They won’t spontaneously jump to full independence. I don't believe that at all. It’s a simple choice, push them to independence or let them float and don’t worry about it.

 

Also on the graph is some advanced characteristics like Emotional bleed. Well, if it bleeds it lives, no, well wait a minute, are you sure that’s not empathy or sympathy? Only you know for sure, don't let anyone else say anything about how your system works. It's just more likely to be coming from them the more advanced they are.

 

In the case of dissipation or integration, you’re simply moving them back down the chart either by their own volition, you together, or by yours alone for whatever reason. In the case of stasis, they’re just going to pretty much stick where you think of them forever. If four years isn’t forever enough, then I can’t say it’s forever, so it’s just forever enough for me.

 

They might also deviate, but soulbonds sometimes don't, so that's not definitive either. Jusy place them on this easy chart, tack it up on the wall and use a dart if it helps. I know what my answer is anyway.

 

Your welcome for the very confusing graph with a lot of controversial topics that surely won’t go over well, but this is just what I’ve determined through the last year or so of research. Adapt it to your system or completely ignore it.

 

This is is what I’m using in my system to keep the peace.

 

[/hidden]

 

We have new system rules!

 

The pacts are null as of today, and we might remake posts if anything odd happens, but most of them were already fully ingrained in our interactions anyway. Whether we recognize pacts or not, call them training wheels, a symbolic reminder that we love eachother and it was just a private look at our insecurities which are mostly gone. We didn't change our behavior or how we feel, we're just free to discuss now without those roadblocks in place. I doubt anything will change in terms of dynamics.

 

After a good long think about the system rules, we've removed the redundancy and simplified until everyone was on board. This applies to everyone not just my tulpas. Everyone follows these and these are our rules as equals stakeholders.

 

The one change here is that anyone listed above can weigh in, though I sincerely doubt many will, and Joy was never shy about her opinions whether we recognized her as equal or not.

 

1. Free Will

2. Consensus

3. Immediate Resolution

 

Just for fun:

[Hidden]

Hey! Check out my visualization practice exercises and meet my official systemmates. It's in my signature, for easy access too. I might get around to describing them in greater detail at some point, but probably when I draw them. Of course, Joy and Ren were already drawn by me a couple times in earlier posts.

[/hidden]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the wonderful outline of your take on thought-forms, I personally agree with much that you say here. I've definitely learnt something from this.


Host - Me

Tulpas -  RavaInca, Elizabeth, CaydeNicolePalma.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.